Posts by ellderwho

251

Is Jesus Christ and Michael the ArchAngel one and the same person?

by booker-t in

i must admit that as a jw i never really swallowed this belief maybe because i was so young when i was really a staunch jw.

i would have born-again christians tell me that it was impossible for jesus and michael to be the same person and that jw's invented this doctrine.

fast forward to 2004 while i was reading a book on jesus i noticed that some of the early church fathers thought michael was jesus christ i almost fell out of my chair.

ellderwho

Ecstatic philology seems to be a fascinating discipline.

~chuckles~ Nicely put Nark.

65

The doctrine of the Tri-Part man.

by LittleToe in

recently there have been discussions about the immortal soul, v's the wts beliefs, so i thought i'd present a little heard of (in jw circles) doctrine of the soul that seeks to explain some passages of scripture that are usually avoided.. first of all, leo posted some fascination information, which gives some background on the bible's general teaching on the soul:.

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/11/80742/1319806/post.ashx#1319806.

the doctrine itself surrounds two texts in particular, which i quote from the nwt:.

ellderwho

I think he became a tri-part man, like the rest of us. The significant difference being that his spirit was "God", of God, connected to God (?) rather than "man", of God, connected to God.

Ok we have the flesh and spirit, now what of the soul? Jesus soul that somehow doesnt sound right.

27

Review: Draw Close to Jehovah Book

by Sirona in

i read the draw close to jehovah book because a jehovahs witness told me that it had some ?deep?

spiritual information in it.

the book appears, at first glance, to be all about knowing jehovah god and his attributes.

ellderwho

Thanks for the review,

I recall reading this book a couple of years ago and getting the same impressions. Please continue.

251

Is Jesus Christ and Michael the ArchAngel one and the same person?

by booker-t in

i must admit that as a jw i never really swallowed this belief maybe because i was so young when i was really a staunch jw.

i would have born-again christians tell me that it was impossible for jesus and michael to be the same person and that jw's invented this doctrine.

fast forward to 2004 while i was reading a book on jesus i noticed that some of the early church fathers thought michael was jesus christ i almost fell out of my chair.

ellderwho

LT, Do you think Jesus was triune in the flesh?

251

Is Jesus Christ and Michael the ArchAngel one and the same person?

by booker-t in

i must admit that as a jw i never really swallowed this belief maybe because i was so young when i was really a staunch jw.

i would have born-again christians tell me that it was impossible for jesus and michael to be the same person and that jw's invented this doctrine.

fast forward to 2004 while i was reading a book on jesus i noticed that some of the early church fathers thought michael was jesus christ i almost fell out of my chair.

ellderwho

LT, You'll have to explain how that "oblong circle" representing Christ theory works?

251

Is Jesus Christ and Michael the ArchAngel one and the same person?

by booker-t in

i must admit that as a jw i never really swallowed this belief maybe because i was so young when i was really a staunch jw.

i would have born-again christians tell me that it was impossible for jesus and michael to be the same person and that jw's invented this doctrine.

fast forward to 2004 while i was reading a book on jesus i noticed that some of the early church fathers thought michael was jesus christ i almost fell out of my chair.

ellderwho

The only basis upon which I can accept it is if you take the word "angel" to merely mean messenger or herald and apply that directly to the specific office of the "Word".

LT, how would this ever apply to Jesus? I dont recall that in scripture.

I don't hold that opinion, but I'm not going to fall out with my brethren who do.

Yeah but I'd have a "pocket knife" to grind with them

EW: (not of the axe grinding class)

251

Is Jesus Christ and Michael the ArchAngel one and the same person?

by booker-t in

i must admit that as a jw i never really swallowed this belief maybe because i was so young when i was really a staunch jw.

i would have born-again christians tell me that it was impossible for jesus and michael to be the same person and that jw's invented this doctrine.

fast forward to 2004 while i was reading a book on jesus i noticed that some of the early church fathers thought michael was jesus christ i almost fell out of my chair.

ellderwho

"No one has ascended into heaven except the one who descended from heaven, the Son of Man who is in heaven

Nark, what text is this from??

edited to add; nevermind I found it.

251

Is Jesus Christ and Michael the ArchAngel one and the same person?

by booker-t in

i must admit that as a jw i never really swallowed this belief maybe because i was so young when i was really a staunch jw.

i would have born-again christians tell me that it was impossible for jesus and michael to be the same person and that jw's invented this doctrine.

fast forward to 2004 while i was reading a book on jesus i noticed that some of the early church fathers thought michael was jesus christ i almost fell out of my chair.

ellderwho

That wouldn't be my view, as it presents a problem with Trinity.
I prefer the opinion that he "extended down" to earth, choosing to limit himself, whilst remaining fully in union with godhead.

I see I was quick to seperate the trinity. My answer is in light of "splittting hairs" as to Jesus/Michael. Its funny the last time I tackled this was with my elder study last year.

I was quick to point out to him what came down from heaven. We must consider, John tells us the Logos becomes flesh and tabernacled among us. I do not equate the logos with an angel.

What I also found intersting is Jo. 1:11 says of the logos, " he came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him" .......at what point did mankind belong to an angel as being his own?

If the logos is and angel then that puts an angel in the creative process. Not the created.

Earnest suggests, it is merely a title rather than a designation of substance, there is little problem with that.

I have problems with that as well, such as "a god."

251

Is Jesus Christ and Michael the ArchAngel one and the same person?

by booker-t in

i must admit that as a jw i never really swallowed this belief maybe because i was so young when i was really a staunch jw.

i would have born-again christians tell me that it was impossible for jesus and michael to be the same person and that jw's invented this doctrine.

fast forward to 2004 while i was reading a book on jesus i noticed that some of the early church fathers thought michael was jesus christ i almost fell out of my chair.

ellderwho

...the quote I referenced was talking about their being no need for a saviour if Jesus was not Michael

I understand your reasoning. Further, Jesus redemption is basterdized by WT doctrine because they have Jesus being raised as a spirit. Not a fleshly resurection, thus perpetrating a colossal fraud of Jesus finding another body with matching flesh wounds.

The WT has the audacity to claim if Jesus rose in the "flesh" he would be "taking back the ransom" hence the fraudulent apperances.

I perceive 'archangel' to be a title rather than a nature (such as human, spirit etc.). As such the question regarding what happened to Michael the Archangel if he is Jesus is the same as asking what happened to the pre-existent Jesus when he became flesh.

The JW cannot have Jesus on earth with a dual nature. With that Michael has to be out of the picture for the earthly Jesus to exist. Remember JW doctrine Jesus was Just a man. Also, after his death, his body turned into gases so Jesus is gone forever, now Michael has to continue on in heaven.

The angels in Noahs day were able to take on bodies (and have a dual nature) and leave without changing natures. But Jesus is somehow unable to do this?????

what happened to the pre-existent Jesus when he became flesh.

Its my belief Jesus was not in heaven when he was on earth, and it was Jesus blood that saves not Michaels. And Jesus not Michael is above all authority named. Ephesians 1:20

251

Is Jesus Christ and Michael the ArchAngel one and the same person?

by booker-t in

i must admit that as a jw i never really swallowed this belief maybe because i was so young when i was really a staunch jw.

i would have born-again christians tell me that it was impossible for jesus and michael to be the same person and that jw's invented this doctrine.

fast forward to 2004 while i was reading a book on jesus i noticed that some of the early church fathers thought michael was jesus christ i almost fell out of my chair.

ellderwho

That's anti-intellectual paranoia a la Watchtower wherein they realize that by someone else pointing out obvious rational things the masses just might realize the glaring holes in WT's theology

Well said. Further, if Michael is not Jesus in WT land, then what will the WT do with Jesus? This follows suite with what Russell did with eternal punishment and sin. By doing away with these, there really is not a need for a "real" savior.

The JW really has no answer for what happened to Michael, because we all know Christ can not have a dual nature to "float" WT doctrine. They have all kinds of excuses for what happened to Michael.

Discussing the scriptural standpoints is almost irrelevant. ie "a god", all [other] things, "firstborn", to get the JW to work out the mechanics of what came down from heaven, will corner the JW into a problem of what to do with Michael. As you stated "someone else pointing out obvious rational things "