I must admit that as a JW I never really swallowed this belief maybe because I was so young when I was really a staunch JW. I would have Born-Again Christians tell me that It was impossible for Jesus and Michael to be the same person and that JW's invented this doctrine. Fast forward to 2004 while I was reading a book on Jesus I noticed that some of the early church fathers thought Michael was Jesus Christ I almost fell out of my chair. The Born-Agains had told me some false information about this doctrine. So that made me investigate some more into the matter. To my surprise Martin Luther thought Jesus and Michael were the same person, Ireanous of the 2nd century thought that Jesus was Michael, Justin Martyer thought that Jesus was an "angel". I was totally confused by now because when I DA'd myself I told the elders that this was JW's made up doctrine and now 15 years later I find out that I was wrong. I compared the scriptures that talk about Michael and I don't care what anybody says I believe that the scriptures proves that Jesus and Michael are one and the same. Dan 12:1-2 was the convincing scriptures for me. Michael has authority over the "dead" waking up and in John 5:28-29 Jesus has authority over the dead rising. In Dan 12:1-2 it talks about 2 classes of dead rising up the good for and the bad for judgement just like at John 5:28-29. Michael is said to fight the Devil with Michael and "his" angels. Jesus is said to come to do battle with "his" angels. Why would the bible say that Michael and "his" angels and not Michael and "the" angels if Michael had no authority over the angels? Micahel is called the great "Prince" and Jesus is call the "Prince of Peace" if Michael was a lesser prince would not the bible somehow distinguish the two in the OT? Jesus comes to reserrect to dead with an "archangel's" voice why not a cherub angel's voice or God's voice if Jesus was not an angel? Born Agains argue that Michael refused to rebuke Satan over Moses body in Jude so this they feel proves the two cannot be the same but by the same argument Jesus told the mother that had two sons that sitting on the right hand of God is not for him to decide but God's decision but why did Jesus say that "ALL" authority has been given to me and all judging has been given to me but he could not decide about the mother's sons sitting at God's right hand? I think JW's are right on this doctrine about Jesus being Michael. I still feel that the JW's are wrong on some other doctrinal matters but I feel they are right on the money with this one.
Is Jesus Christ and Michael the ArchAngel one and the same person?
by booker-t 251 Replies latest watchtower scandals
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blondie
No
In trying to prove they were, I proved to myself they were not.
Then I started wondering why it was so important to the WTS that they were.
Blondie
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candidlynuts
have you reached any conclusions about why they might want them to be the same person blondee?
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Happy Guy :)
Why would the bible say that Michael and "his" angels and not Michael and "the" angels if Michael had no authority over the angels?
Because Michael did have a measure of authority in that he is an archangel.
Jesus comes to reserrect to dead with an "archangel's" voice why not a cherub angel's voice or God's voice if Jesus was not an angel?
This does not prove that Jesus is Micahael as the bible (unadultered by the WT) refers to archangels. In other words it is pluralized which implies there are several archangels.
if Michael was a lesser prince would not the bible somehow distinguish the two in the OT?
By the same token, if Jesus and Micheal were the same then the bible certainly is large enough to mention this at least once. It does not because they are seperate and distinct.
Why does the WT go to great lengths to try and connect the 2 when there is no clear connection? Why do they use muddled examples to do this? I have wondered that myself.
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Kenneson
Why does Daniel 10:13 call Michael, one of the foremost princes? He's not the only one. There is more than one foremost prince! And Heb. 1:5 and 6 and 2:5 show that Jesus is not an angel.
1 Thess. 5:16 also has Jesus coming with God's trumpet? Do you think that's literal?
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VM44
Then I started wondering why it was so important to the WTS that they were.
The answer to this question would be interesting.
--VM44
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Leolaia
First of all, the Bible is a collection of different writings with their own points of view and each text has to be taken on their own terms. Daniel clearly does designate Michael as the angelic "prince" guarding the nation of Judah who would defeat Antiochus Epiphanes IV and who will "stand up" (i.e. "begin ruling") as the messianic ruler of God's people. This concept is very close to the War Scroll of the Dead Sea Scrolls. However, Daniel has no concept of Jesus per se. And while Daniel comes close to identifying the "one like a son of man" with Michael, other pre-Christian writings -- especially the "Book of Similitudes" of 1 Enoch -- distinguish the apocalyptic Son of Man from Michael. Jesus is identified with the heavenly Son of Man in various NT writings, but they are not explicit in describing the Son of Man as specifically an angel. Some NT writings, especially Hebrews 1, go to some length to rule out any possibility that Jesus was an "angel". Revelation 12 distinguishes between Michael and the Messiah child being attacked by the dragon. More importantly, Jewish angelology numbered four to seven archangels; 1 Enoch 20:1-8 numbered seven archangels, including Michael, Uriel, Raphael, Raguel, Saraqael, Gabriel, and Remiel. This pre-Christian writing is directly relevant to your question because Jude, which reports an extracanonical tradition about Michael and the body of Moses, is heavily dependent on 1 Enoch and even quotes 1 Enoch 1:9 in Jude 14-15. The "preeminence" that Apostle Paul and the author of John accord to Jesus would hardly assume that he was one of several archangels. I would also be careful citing the early church fathers; the Society has not been intellectually honest in citing them in works such as the Trinity broshure. For instance, Justin Martyr never declared Jesus to be a "created angel". Rather, "Angel" (the OT "Angel of YHWH") is merely a title that Justin regards as applied to Jesus in the OT: "The Holy Spirit indicates this Power by various titles, sometimes the Glory of God, at other times Son, or Wisdom, or Angel, or God, or Lord, or Word." (Dialogue, 61). He believed that Jesus was the "Lord God" who spoke to Moses from the burning bush: "He who is termed an Angel and is God was the only one who talked to and was seen by Moses" (Dialogue, 60). He also said that Christ "is called God, he is God, and shall always be God" (Dialogue, 58). He also specifically refuted the notion that Jesus was a created angel:
"Lest you [Trypho the Jew] distort the meaning of these words by repeating what your teachers say--either that God said to Himself, 'Let us make,' just as we, when on the verge of doing something, say to ourselves, 'Let us make'; or that God said 'Let us make' to the elements, that is, to the earth or other similar substances of which we think man was composed--I wish again to quote Moses to prove beyond all doubt that He spoke with One endowed with reason, and different in number from Himself. These are the words of Moses: 'And God said: Behold Adam is become as one of us, knowing good and evil.' Now, the words 'as one of us' clearly show that there were a number of persons together, and that they were at least two. . . .I do not consider that teaching true which is asserted by what you call a heretical sect of your religion, nor can the proponents of that heresy prove that He spoke those words [i.e., 'Let us make'] to angels, or that the human body was the result of an angel's work. But this Offspring, who was truly begotten of the Father, was with the Father and the Father talked with Him before all creation, as the scripture through Solomon clearly showed us, saying that this Son, who is called Wisdom by Solomon, was begotten both as a beginning before all His works, and as His Offspring." (Dialogue 62)
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Will Power
1 Thess. 5:16 also has Jesus coming with God's trumpet? Do you think that's literal?
I think it is 1 thes 4:16
"the Lord * himself, with a cry of command, with the archangel's call and with the sound of God's trumpet, will descend from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first." 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up in the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the air; and so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.
See the asterisk after the word Lord? The WT CD and any WT printed from 1975 on, where this scripture is found, has this asterisk saying this Lord is Jehovah.
If the WT teaches this is one of its proof texts that Jesus is Michael - are the 2 of them also Jehovah? That would make 3 in one? Egads
will
p.s. Leo good comments on the early church fathers. Funny the Trinity brochure does not bring up ARIUS who fought long and hard to have Jesus labeled an angel.
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confusedjw
It crossed my mind many times why we didn't pray in Michael's name or refer to Jesus as Michael or that why he would even have two names.
So the "algebra" style equation the WT used to prove Jesus = Michael always seemed weak, but not unplausible.
Upon further investigation I think Michael is the FDS as I am sure they will soon announce. Followed a few years later by "Hey folks funny thing happened on the way to the office - turns out we (FDS) are Jehovah - but since ya'll already fear us that way this will be only a minor adjustment."
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heathen
Well I can't say I'm surprised to see this topic come up again . I don't have a problem with it . There is alot of evidence that jesus had a heavenly existence prior to being born to humans . Michael seems like a likely choice of all the angels because the bible is mainly about the arrival of the messiah so it makes sense that jesus being the first born of all creation and all things being created through him should actually be Michael. As you have said , in daniel it is michael that stands up in behalf of his chosen ones and the dead are resurrected , pretty much what it says about jesus in revelation. The catholic church also believes the michael is jesus thing . As far as the bible goes it is not 100% clear but a safe assumption I think .