Hooberus, Deputy Dog, Little Toe:
It sounds like we agree about much more than we think.
I believe that based on our discussion and your reasoning skills, that you folks would make excellent Unitarians!
Posts by PRB
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43Troublesome Trinity Verses Part 3
by hooberus ini will be posting some more "troublesome trinity" verses shortly.
i am trying to concentrate on the verses used by non-trinitarians to "disprove" the trinity.
"mighty god" is jehovah in isaiah 10:21, jeremiah 32:18 etc.
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43
Troublesome Trinity Verses Part 3
by hooberus ini will be posting some more "troublesome trinity" verses shortly.
i am trying to concentrate on the verses used by non-trinitarians to "disprove" the trinity.
"mighty god" is jehovah in isaiah 10:21, jeremiah 32:18 etc.
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PRB
Peace.
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43
Troublesome Trinity Verses Part 3
by hooberus ini will be posting some more "troublesome trinity" verses shortly.
i am trying to concentrate on the verses used by non-trinitarians to "disprove" the trinity.
"mighty god" is jehovah in isaiah 10:21, jeremiah 32:18 etc.
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PRB
Little Toe,
It wasn’t my expectation to change the beliefs of anyone on this forum. It was my hope to provide a defense for what I believe the Bible says on this subject. I’m bowing out of further discussion because I believe this topic will quickly become a cyclic exchange of accusations and counter accusations while ignoring any scriptural references.
Well Little Toe, would you have been depressed or terribly bent out of shape if after reviewing these scriptures and your reasoning, I concluded the following:
You know, you guys are right. All these years I’ve been misleading myself. Jesus is God!
You may not have been trying to change my mind, but I doubt that the above response would have ruined your day either.
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43
Troublesome Trinity Verses Part 3
by hooberus ini will be posting some more "troublesome trinity" verses shortly.
i am trying to concentrate on the verses used by non-trinitarians to "disprove" the trinity.
"mighty god" is jehovah in isaiah 10:21, jeremiah 32:18 etc.
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PRB
Well I think I've made a satisfactory attempt to answer all prior questions. I could persue this further, but I will certainly NOT be successful at changing the mind of anyone who is convinced of the TRINITY. I would say what other Trinitarians have said to me in the past, 'these are things that the Lord will clarify in his day'.
As for those who have lingering questions, please weigh everything carefully against countless number of scriptural references that show that the Son and the Father are not the same. Here are a few of these scriptural references:
Jesus is spoken of as being the Mediator between God and men... 1 Tim. 2:5.
Jesus is spoken of as being distinct from the Father... John 8:17, 18.
God is spoken of as the head of Christ... 1 Cor. 11:3.
Jesus spoke of the Father as being God rather than himself... John 17:3.
A voice from Heaven separate and apart from Jesus speaks of him as being His 'beloved Son'... Matt 3:17.
If Christ is represented as a Priest, he cannot be God... Heb. 3:1.
I could go on and on..., but I'm sure you wouldn't want me to.
Trinitarians have countless number of unanswered scriptures which contradict their position that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are God.
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43
Troublesome Trinity Verses Part 3
by hooberus ini will be posting some more "troublesome trinity" verses shortly.
i am trying to concentrate on the verses used by non-trinitarians to "disprove" the trinity.
"mighty god" is jehovah in isaiah 10:21, jeremiah 32:18 etc.
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PRB
The big difference is the Father was not created. There is no place in the scriptures where it states that 'the Father was the beginning of all creation' or 'the Father was the firstborn of all creation'. So the Father could not come before all others in creation, because he was not created or begotten
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43
Troublesome Trinity Verses Part 3
by hooberus ini will be posting some more "troublesome trinity" verses shortly.
i am trying to concentrate on the verses used by non-trinitarians to "disprove" the trinity.
"mighty god" is jehovah in isaiah 10:21, jeremiah 32:18 etc.
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PRB
Hi LittleToe,
Regarding your question about Matthew 28:19, I'm sure I won't be able to explain it to your satisfaction. However, I do have some comments about that verse. Eusebius (Bishop of Caesarea) quotes from Matthew 28:19 in his Ecclesiastical History. When Eusebius quotes from Matthew 28:19, he finishes it with the words "in my name". Some question whether "the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit" is found in the original text or not. I am not a scholar, so I can't say. However, the words in Matthew 28:19 do not state that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are God. It simply states "Go, then, to all peoples everywhere and make them my disciples: baptize them in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit" (Good News Bible).
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43
Troublesome Trinity Verses Part 3
by hooberus ini will be posting some more "troublesome trinity" verses shortly.
i am trying to concentrate on the verses used by non-trinitarians to "disprove" the trinity.
"mighty god" is jehovah in isaiah 10:21, jeremiah 32:18 etc.
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PRB
The way in which Jesus is the firstborn is clarified in Colossians 1:17 where he is described as being "before all things". The Greek word used here pro (before), can be used to describe time, place or position. So Jesus comes before all others in creation, he comes before all others in the resurrection from the dead and he is before (or is "superior") to all of us when it comes to the Church (i.e., he is the Head of the Church).
Again, scriptural comparisons are useful. Revelation 3:14 describes Jesus as the “beginning of God’s creation” (The Bible in Living English). Jesus is the firstborn of all creation because he comes before all other created beings. He is before all others because his creation occurred at the very beginning of the creative process.
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43
Troublesome Trinity Verses Part 3
by hooberus ini will be posting some more "troublesome trinity" verses shortly.
i am trying to concentrate on the verses used by non-trinitarians to "disprove" the trinity.
"mighty god" is jehovah in isaiah 10:21, jeremiah 32:18 etc.
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PRB
hooberus,
Thanks for your comments. However, it really takes a tremendous logical leap to equate Jesus with Jehovah after quoting all the scriptures you made reference to. 1 Corinthians 8:5-6 is clearly making a distinction between Jesus and Jehovah. If Jesus (Yeshua) and Jehovah (YHWH) are the same, why isn't verse 6 (of 1 Cor. 8) simply collapsed to say 'One God and Lord Jesus Christ'? The Father and the Son are addressed in completely separate references in verse 6.
You also made reference to Psalms 136:1-3 where Jehovah is referred to as both "God of gods" and "Lord of lords". By using this reference, you are obviously trying to tie it to Jesus being "Lord of lords" (see Rev. 17:14 and Rev. 19:16). When considering the reference to Jesus as “Lord of lords”, you have to remember how he got to that position. Jehovah God (his Heavenly Father) granted him the elevated position of “Lord of lords” (Mt. 28:18, Mt. 11:27, Eph. 1:20-22, Php. 2:9,10).
Even though Jesus is referred to as “Lord of lords” in Relations 17:14 and 19:16, there is no reference to Jesus being “God of gods”. You can look to Ephesians 1:21 which provides more light as to how Jesus is “Lord of lords”. In Matthew 28:18, Jesus acknowledged that authority had been granted to him. Therefore, Jesus would not be Lord of lords if the Father had not granted him that position.
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43
Troublesome Trinity Verses Part 3
by hooberus ini will be posting some more "troublesome trinity" verses shortly.
i am trying to concentrate on the verses used by non-trinitarians to "disprove" the trinity.
"mighty god" is jehovah in isaiah 10:21, jeremiah 32:18 etc.
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PRB
Colossians 1:18 ties in perfectly with Colossians 1:20 and does not nullify the words “firstborn of all creation” in Colossians 1:15. If taken in order, Christ is the firstborn of all creation. He is also the firstborn from the dead who is resurrected to enjoy eternal life. The others to follow him would be able to enjoy that resurrection and a relationship with God because of the sacrifice he (Christ) made on the cross (Col. 1:15-20).
Colossians 1:18 is better understood when carefully compared to 1 Corinthians 15:20-23.
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43
Troublesome Trinity Verses Part 3
by hooberus ini will be posting some more "troublesome trinity" verses shortly.
i am trying to concentrate on the verses used by non-trinitarians to "disprove" the trinity.
"mighty god" is jehovah in isaiah 10:21, jeremiah 32:18 etc.
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PRB
I can't say that I see "equally eternal" in Col. 1:15 especially after I examine what is said in Php. 2:6 and John 14:28.
Regarding humans, we don't create our children because we didn't put the cycle of life in place. However, this is different when one thinks of the relationship of the Father to the Son.