Troublesome Trinity Verses Part 3

by hooberus 43 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  hooberus

  I will be posting some more "troublesome Trinity" verses shortly. I am trying to concentrate on the verses used by non-trinitarians to "disprove" the trinity. The first post was 1 Corinthians 8:5-6, the second 1 Timothy 2:5. I think that is heplful to concentrate on 1 verse or closely related subject at a time. (Though you are free to discuss what you wish, I have noticed that most (though not all) "Trinity" debates degenerate into a scriptural ping-pong match, with each side sending volleys of verses and concepts at each other with out understanding how the other side thinks or carefully looking at the verses the other side uses. These posts are my attempts as a Trinitarian to deal with the arguments used against the trinity by non-trinitarians. For example I examined the Watchtower reasoning behind 1 Corinthians 8:5-6 and then showed that it was faulty, I then showed how 1 Corinthians 8:5-6 actually supports the full deity of Jesus Christ. Of course others may still have a different belief on this verse. Anyway, I plan on (Lord willing) dealing with many of the anti-Trinty verses commonly used in a series of many "Troublesome Trinity" posts. I hope to do this taking into account the other sides arguments as well as using parallel verses. I actually hope for a series of controlled, relatively short dialogues covering each verse or closely related concept thoroughly rather than a one or two long theads which go all over the place. Due to the complexity of all of the subjects surrounding the Trinity, I feel that this is the best way to dialogue and have constructive discussion of this very important subject. Though you are free to post as you wish within the guidelines, I ask that for the sake of contolled discussion that the topics of discussion within each thread remain reasonable close to the specific "verse" or concept of that specific thread. Hopefully this will lead to better understanding of the issues. Troublesome Trinity Verse: Isaiah 9:6

  The watchtower claims that while Jesus is a "mighty God" that he is not the "Almighty God Jehovah." This is based partly on Isaiah 9:6 which refers to Jesus. "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." Isaiah 9:6 I think that there are some problems with this reasoning:

  1. Just becasue Jesus is "the mighty God" does not mean that He is not also "Almighty". "mighty God" is Jehovah in Isaiah 10:21, Jeremiah 32:18 etc. "And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth. The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God." Isaiah 10:20-21 "Thou shewest lovingkindness unto thousands, and recompensest the iniquity of the fathers into the bosom of their children after them: the Great, the Mighty God, the LORD of hosts, is his name," Jeremiah 32:18 2. The titles "mighty God" and "Mighty God" are always used of Jehovah everywhere else in the Bible: "And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth. The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God." Isaiah 10:20-21 "Thou shewest lovingkindness unto thousands, and recompensest the iniquity of the fathers into the bosom of their children after them: the Great, the Mighty God, the LORD of hosts, is his name," Jeremiah 32:18 "The mighty God, even the LORD, hath spoken, and called the earth from the rising of the sun unto the going down thereof." Psalm 50:1 "LORD, remember David, and all his afflictions: How he sware unto the LORD, and vowed unto the mighty God of Jacob; Surely I will not come into the tabernacle of my house, nor go up into my bed. I will not give sleep to mine eyes, or slumber to mine eyelids, Until I find out a place for the LORD, an habitation for the mighty God of Jacob." Psalm 132:1-5 3. The word "mighty" is used of Jehovah in Deuteronomy 10:17. This verse is is interesting to compare with Isaiah 9:6 and 1 Timothy 6:13. 17: For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:" Deuteronomy 10:17 "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." Isaiah 9:6 "That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;" 1 Timothy 6;14-15 4. The Watchtower interpreatation leaves us with two separate "Mighty Gods" "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them. Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any." Isaiah 44:6-8
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  hooberus

  Please on this thread restrict your comments to the "Mighty/ Almighty" issue, thanks
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  Kenneson

  What is it that Jehovah can do that Jesus can't? What has Jehovah done that Jesus hasn't?

  Jehovah is said to be Creator (Gen. 1:1 and Neh. 9:6). Jesus is said to be Creator (Heb. 1:3, 5, 10 and John 1:3, 10 and Col. 1:16-17)

  Jehovah forgives sin (Psalm 130:7-8, Jer. 31:34 and Mark 2:7). Jesus forgives sin (Luke 5:20 and Titus 2:1314).

  Jehovah hears prayers (Psalm 65:2). Jesus hears prayers (John 14:14 and Acts 7:59 and Acts 22:17-19)

  Jehovah can calm storms (Psalm 107:29). Jesus can calm storms (Luke 8:24).

  Jehovah is Savior (Is. 43:11 and 45:21). Jesus is Savior (Titus 3:6 and 2 Peter 1:1)

  Jehovah is Shepherd (Psalm 23) and Jesus is Shepherd (John 10:14 and John 21:16-17)

  There are countless other names and titles that both Jehovah and Jesus share. They possess the same qualities. They perform the same acts. How is one less powerful than the other?

  Is it any wonder that Scripture says that each is worthy of the same honor? Compare Rev. 4:11 to 5:12. Next compare Rev. 19:1 with Rev. 1:5-6. Then, Is. 43:10 to Acts 1:8. Also, Joshua 24:24 with Col. 3:24. And finally, John 5:23 and Heb. 1:6.
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  LittleToe

  The hebrew is "Gibbor El" (Mighty God), which is also found at the following places:

  • Deut.10:17
  • Neh.9:32
  • Isa.9:6
  • Isa.10:21
  • Jer.32:18
  • Eze.32:21

  I especially love Deut.10:17 (Literal Version):
  "For Jehovah your God, He is the God of gods, and the Lord of lords; the great, the mighty, the fearful God who does not lift up faces, nor take a bribe."
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  DJ

  Good post. I think that the confusion comes in for most people becaus ef the words "in subjection". I am in subjection to my husband even though we are both human and equal...our rank/position differs. My husband is higher rank than me. If the Father is higher rank than the Son, then the Son is in subjection to the Father, right? This is where the confusion is. It could be stated that while the Father is almighty, the Son is mighty because the Son is in subjection to the Father. I believe that Jesus is God becaue the bible only has to call Him God once and it does... but at the same time I do not believe that the Father is in subjection to the Son. I see that they are equal in power and authority, because the bible teaches that the Father has given all authority to the Son. I can see how this whole topic can confuse someone and atleast you have to admit that... The watchtower has to ignore much of the bible in order to come up with their theory but at the same time trinitarians need to remember that it is not an easy concept! Some like to say that the Son was in subjection while on earth only.....yet Christ is shown to be in subjection to His Father in the future in Cor.15:27-28. That is a little confusing.

  I look at it this way...The Father and Son are worthy of my worship and both are called God/creator, that is clear enough for me. If we are only to worship God as the bible teaches.....then I only worship God. I feel that trying to figure this all out was only causing me to be unable to serve God properly because my confusion was causing me to judge others and become angry. Being taught that the trinity is evil from a small child....I really had to struggle with it but I have been given the grace to see that Christ is all I need and that the Father has called me to Him. I see very clearly that the bible teaches this concept from beginning to end yet it is still confusing and practically imposible to explain. I mean...if the Father is God and the Son is God then how is that one? Yet God is one and the bible calls Christ God....You gotta admit that is a tough one for humans who do math.The bible says what it says though....love, dj

  edited to say: I suppose the key is to understand that the word for "One" that was used in Hebrew held the meaning of "one as in a cluster of grapes". that is very important to understand imo. Also, the fact that woman came from man (Adam's rib) makes it understandable as to why women are in subjection to men. Much like Christ claims that He "came out from God" in John....I suppose that is why He is God yet in subjection to the Father. Make sense?
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  hooberus

  The phrase "Mighty God" is a strong testament to the full deity of Jesus Christ (that He is Jehovah). The phrase "Mighty God" in Isaiah 9:6 when studied with the other "Mighty God" passages in the Old Testament offers no support whatsoever for the Watchtower contention that Jesus Christ is less "God" than the Father.
  

  I don't think that it even offers support for for a postitionally lower rank within the Godhead, since Jehovah is both "Mighty God" and "Almighty God" at the same time.
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  LittleToe

  I have difficulty with attributing the human idea of rank to God, too.
  There is an orderliness, in the actions of God, but that doesn't of itself necessitate superiority.
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  PRB

  Using these scripture references to support the Trinity is a weak attempt at best. First, you have to look at everything in context. Use Deuteronomy 10:17 for example. The name of God YHWH is used in that same verse when showing that Jehovah is Mighty. The one verse in the Bible where the title "Mighty God" is used for Jesus does not include YHWH to identify him. Notice also that the words when used in reference to Jesus state 'and he shall be called... Mighty God'. These words did not state that 'He is Mighty God', instead they say 'and he shall be called'. Those words were used to attribute titles to the Son of God. So, it is clear when you look at these examples in their proper context, that two different people are being referred to here. Those verses are not troublesome at all unless you go though the trouble and logical acrobatics to use them while trying to prove this most ambiguous of doctrines.
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  JCanon

  The phrase "Mighty God" is a strong testament to the full deity of Jesus Christ (that He is Jehovah). The phrase "Mighty God" in Isaiah 9:6 when studied with the other "Mighty God" passages in the Old Testament offers no support whatsoever for the Watchtower contention that Jesus Christ is less "God" than the Father.

  This is another case of the not being able to see the forest for the trees. John calls Jesus the "only-begoten GOD in the bosom position of the Father".

  Now that's the PICTURE you should be developing when it comes to Jesus compared to God.

  But what could be more fundamental than that most generic reference between the two that there can be, that of FATHER and SON.

  So do you want to know the relationship between God and Jesus? It's not a mystery. It's FATHER and SON.

  You can glorify or deify the son all you want to, it won't matter. As long as you keep them as FATHER and SON you're on track. The moment you get out of that and start redefining what "son" is in this special case, then you're going against scripture and apostasizing.

  It's very simple.

  FATHER.....SON.

  He is called the ONLY-BEGOTTEN SON for a reason..... Is it a mysterious reason? No. It simply means he was the beginning of God's creative works and the only work that Jesus didn't assist with.

  This is not difficult.

  Father....son. There was the Father...he decided to create someone.....so who he created became his son. Okay.

  That's why Jesus is called the "SON"....

  Got it?

  Do you need me to draw you a diagram?
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  LittleToe

  PRB:
  Welcome to the board - I'm afraid I missed your opening post, of about three weeks ago, but now I've caught up.

  In answer to your statement I would say that if it was as easy as you suggest then we'd all believe the same thing.

  I was born and raised as a JW, and taught their flavour of Unitarianism for many years.
  After some honest research, I can't say that the issue is that closed at all, quite the reverse.

  JCAnon:
  You really are missing the point (and I can't tell if it's intentional, or not).

  The Son is the Son, as you state, but he IS a one-off.
  What does creation have to do with THAT relationship?

  Please feel free to supply all the diagrams you want, because the moment you attempt to draw Him, you've become an idol worshipper.