Posts by darkspilver

it mentioned the jdubs and highlighted the following point.. an even more extreme example of what might be called "masked churn" is the relatively tiny jehovah's witnesses, with a turnover rate of about two-thirds.

that means that two-thirds of the people who told pew they were raised jehovah's witnesses no longer are — yet the group attracts roughly the same number of converts.

darkspilver

Diogenesister: Talking about the article darkspilver :
Was that a necessarily 'bad' thing though from the JWs point-of-view?
And, I've always thought, it kind of fits in with their theology. That Jehovah "calls" people doesn't really make sense if whole extended families stay jws

haha, yeah interesting - and you could almost reverse-the-principle as a proof that the JWs are wrong (on the assumption (?) that often the majority of JWs are JWs because of cross-generational family connections).

It's also interesting nowadays to look at various body of elders and ask: how many of them where 'born-in' supposed to 'converted' themselves?

My answer is that, nowadays, the vast majority of elders (in first-world countries) are actually 'born-ins'.

33

For ELDERS: Kingdom Ministry School for the 2018 Service Year (Picture)

by pixel in

i know wifibandit will post the pdf soon, this is just a snack for you guys and girls.... .

darkspilver

flipper: "the case of a MATURE CHILD who VOLUNTARILY PARTICIPATED in a wrongful act"

No, the WT does NOT say 'child', they say 'minor' - big difference

the issue here appears to be the difference between the 'age of majority' (often 18, but sometimes older) ie when a person stops being a 'minor', and the 'age of consent' (often 16, but can vary and be lower).

It appears that generally the age for consent is lower than the age for majority.

For example I understand that in New Zealand the 'age of consent' is 16, but the legal term 'age of majority' is 20.
Hence the above quote to cover the situation with 16, 17, 18 and 19-year-old 'mature minors' in New Zealand.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_majority
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_consent#By_country_or_region

On the separate issue of under 16s (which is age of consent in UK, may be lower in your country) it is interesting to see what the UK's CICA says (though it has attracted a 'backlash'):

The UK's official Criminal Injuries Compensation Authority (CICA) draft revised guidelines state: “Consent ‘in fact’ is different from consent ‘in law’. The scheme recognises that there may be situations where a person aged under 16 has ‘in fact’ consented to sexual activity. Where the sexual activity is truly of the applicant’s free will no crime of violence will have occurred.”
https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/4870809111756800/uk-revised-uk-child-sexual-consent-rules-provoke-backlash

Also previous discussion about the BoE letter here:

https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/5072996442046464/september-1-2017-boe-re-protecting-minors-from-abuse

33

For ELDERS: Kingdom Ministry School for the 2018 Service Year (Picture)

by pixel in

i know wifibandit will post the pdf soon, this is just a snack for you guys and girls.... .

darkspilver

ITEM OUTLINE

PROGRAM FOR ELDERS

September 1, 2017, letter to all bodies of elders regarding protecting minors from abuse

Elders - Item 10 - Protecting Minors From Abuse - 45 min

Notes: Review with the audience. Be sure to highlight the main points. Read and apply the texts of the cited information as time permits. Emphasize the importance of following strict guidelines set by the branch to address issues related to child abuse If you have questions about the content of this outline, ask the elders to contact the Service Department.
INTRODUCTION (6 min.)
This part will discuss the letter to the bodies of elders from 1 September 2017. Get your copy, please.
When dealing with cases of child abuse, examine this letter along with the pertinent instructions from the Shepherd book.
Question for paragraph 2: What does child abuse cover?
Questions for paragraph 3:
What is our opinion regarding child sexual abuse?
What will the congregation not do for someone who sexually abuses a child?
When someone presents to the elders an allegation of sexual abuse of minors, what should they tell you?
A person who presents an allegation of this nature to the elders should be clearly informed of their right to report the perpetrator to the authorities. The elders do not criticize anyone who chooses that option (Galatians 6: 5).
Questions for paragraph 4:
What duty do the parents have?
What help do they have?
LEGAL ASPECTS (5 min.)
Paragraphs 5 to 9 have legal aspects related to allegations of child abuse.
Questions paragraphs 5 to 7: What immediate action should the elders take when you hear of an allegation of child abuse, and for what purpose?
Two elders should call the Legal Department in all cases listed in paragraph 6 to ensure compliance with laws on reporting child abuse (Rom 13: 1-4). After notifying them, if they are required by law to notify the authorities, the call will be forwarded to the Service Department.
Questions for paragraphs 8 and 9: In what other situations should two elders immediately call the Legal Department?
SPIRITUAL HELP FOR VICTIMS (10 min.)
Paragraph 10 presents the congregation’s view on sexual abuse of minors.
As it says, "we’re talking about an adult guilty of molesting a child, or an adult who has sexual contact with a child approaching adulthood but did not participate voluntarily in the act."
Paragraphs 11 and 12 mention factors that must be taken into account when shepherding victims of abuse and their families. When carrying out their continuing work of spiritual shepherding, it is particularly important to show empathy and compassion to victims of sexual abuse and their families (Isa 32: 1, 2).
Questions for paragraph 11:
When elders shepherd a victim of sexual abuse who is still a minor, who else should be present?
Apart from the spiritual shepherding, what other assistance may the victim or his parents want?
Questions for paragraph 12:
When an adult who is worried or anxious for having been abused in the past approaches the elders, how should they be treated?
What should the elders remember when shepherding a sister who has been sexually abused?
INVESTIGATION OF ACCUSATIONS (5 min.)
Questions for paragraph 13:
Regardless of who makes the allegation, and whether the accused belongs to the congregation, what should the body of elders do after receiving advice from the branch office?
All accusations made against a member of the congregation should be investigated following biblical guidelines.
What is not required of the victim of sexual abuse during the investigation process or during the proceedings of the judicial committee?
The abuser is not required to make his / her accusation in the presence of the alleged abuser.
In the exceptional case where the two elders conducting the investigation consider it necessary to speak to a child who has been sexually abused, what should they do before proceeding?
Elders should contact the Service Department first. Such an application is considered exceptional because in most cases the elders should be able to obtain the necessary information from the parents. In addition, they may already have sufficient evidence to establish an evil act (KS10 5: 37-39).
JUDICIAL AND REINSTATEMENT PROCEDURES (8 min.)
Questions for paragraph 14:
If the formation of a judicial committee on the grounds of sexual abuse is justified, what should the coordinator of the body of elders do?
If the elders determine that a baptized member of the congregation is guilty of child abuse under the terms of paragraph 10, legal action will be taken against the abuser. Although victims of sexual abuse are not prosecuted, if the body of elders considers that the congregation should take action in the case of a mature child who voluntarily participated in a wrongful act, two of its members should call the Department of Service before proceeding.
What role does the circuit overseer play in these matters?
If the transgressor repents, why is it always necessary to announce censorship?
Questions for paragraph 15:
When a person is expelled for sexual abuse of children requests reinstatement, what should the coordinator of the body of elders do?
If you opt for reinstatement, what should two elders do, and when?
This step is taken before announcing reinstatement to the congregation so that the Service Department can advise the elders of the steps they must take to protect children against the abuser.
Questions for paragraph 16:
If a person is expelled for sexual abuse of children moves and seeks reinstatement, what should the coordinator of the body of elders of the new congregation do?
How do we proceed if the reinstatement committee of the new congregation recommends that the person be reinstated?
If both reinstatement committees agree readmission to reinstate the person, what should two elders of each congregation do, and when?
This step is taken before announcing reinstatement to the congregation so that the Service Department can advise the elders of the steps they must take to protect children against the abuser.
RESTRICTIONS IMPOSED BY BRANCH (3 min.)
Question for paragraph 17: Under what circumstances should elders expect instructions from the Service Department?
Paragraph 18 adds that in these cases the Service Department indicates the restrictions to be imposed on the activities of the person in the congregation. The Service Department will ask the elders to inform the family heads with younger children in the congregation of the need to monitor their relationship with that person. This measure will be taken only when the Service Department so requires.
Question for paragraph 19: What should be done if the body of elders believe that someone who sexually abused children for decades can receive small privileges?
MOVING TO ANOTHER CONGREGATION (3 min.)
Question for paragraph 21: When someone who faces charges of sexual abuse of children (whether it has been proven or not) moves to a congregation, what procedure is followed?
The Congregation Service Committee should not send any information to the new congregation until it receives advice from the Legal Department and instructions from the Service Department.
Question for paragraph 22: When someone who faces charges of sexual abuse of minors (whether it has been proven or not) moves from a congregation, what steps should the elders take? If the person is expelled and lives in the territory of the congregation, the elders must write down the address on the corresponding territory card, indicating "Do not visit".
INAPPROPRIATE SEXUAL CONDUCT BETWEEN MINORS (2 min.)
Question for paragraph 24: What steps should the elders take when minors commit improper sexual acts with each other?
ENTRIES IN THE SHEPHERDING TEXTBOOK (1 min.)
If you have not already done so, confirm that your Shepherding book contains the changes outlined in paragraph 26.
JEHOVAH BLESS THE SPIRITUAL CARE THAT YOU HAVE (1 min.) It is imperative that we strictly follow the instructions of the organization whenever we are informed of a matter relating to child abuse. If we adhere to these guidelines, we will support the sanctity of Jehovah’s name and protect children while shepherding the "flock of God in your care" (1 Pet 2:12; 5:2).
[Announce the next part]. kms-tk18 Num. 10 7/17
MUST BE PRESENTED IN 44 MINUTES

hat tip https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/78f2pw

22

Uber Cart Witnessing at the State Fair

by truth_b_known in

last thursday i bunch of us working decided we were going to head down to the state fair and badge our way in to get a fletcher's corny dog for lunch.

we had to go to a specific gate to park and show our credentials to get in.

this meant driving halfway around the perimeter of the entire fairgrounds.

darkspilver

These??

32

Oddest front covers on Watchtower or Awake

by usualusername1 in

jw
friends

in my comedy i want to show the audience a large version of some weird front covers from the watchtower or awake.. do you have any suggestions?.

cheers.

paul.

darkspilver

9

JW website speaks with forked-tongue!

by The Fall Guy in

i put this under the "scandal" section because it is both a scandal how the wtbts can flaunt its evil hypocrisy and an even bigger scandal that the u.n. and governments in general turn a blind eye to the treatment inflicted on anyone who questions or challenges the org's teachings and practices.

"the right to change religions is supported by the universal declaration of human rights, which the united nations has called “the foundation of international human rights law.”......of course, these rights carry with them the obligation to respect the rights of others both to maintain their beliefs and to reject ideas that they disagree with.

https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/change-religion/.

darkspilver

The Fall Guy: A considerable amount of new forum members and lurking J.W.'s who haven't officially signed up will not have seen that discussion.

And of course even you've only been a forum member here for four months..... that's which is why I linked to the fairly in depth and interesting discussion that Alexandra James had put a lot of time and effort into producing.

Especially as I know you appreciate the benefit we can get from re-reading those forum posts and perhaps using them to expand on the thoughts and principles that they contain in our own discussions on 'current' threads.

The Fall Guy: It's good to see different perspectives on certain topics - past and present - and also to highlight them as you have done. I reckon that most newbies are like me and have not researched historical posts here, unless cited or quoted by others. To use an old org mantra - "repetition for emphasis" - I think it would be beneficial for such ones to read some of those posts which you previously listed, as well as some other ones.

9

JW website speaks with forked-tongue!

by The Fall Guy in

i put this under the "scandal" section because it is both a scandal how the wtbts can flaunt its evil hypocrisy and an even bigger scandal that the u.n. and governments in general turn a blind eye to the treatment inflicted on anyone who questions or challenges the org's teachings and practices.

"the right to change religions is supported by the universal declaration of human rights, which the united nations has called “the foundation of international human rights law.”......of course, these rights carry with them the obligation to respect the rights of others both to maintain their beliefs and to reject ideas that they disagree with.

https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/change-religion/.

darkspilver

Check out this discussion about that page on JWorg:

https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/281010002/jehovahs-witnesses-recognize-that-people-have-right-change-religions-just-their-religion

64

Why is there such a 'high turnover' within the Jehovahs Witnesses?

by UnshackleTheChains in

i happened to come across a time article in 2008. it was basically talking about the high turnover in american faiths.

it mentioned the jdubs and highlighted the following point.. an even more extreme example of what might be called "masked churn" is the relatively tiny jehovah's witnesses, with a turnover rate of about two-thirds.

that means that two-thirds of the people who told pew they were raised jehovah's witnesses no longer are — yet the group attracts roughly the same number of converts.

darkspilver

That means that two-thirds of the people who told Pew they were raised Jehovah's Witnesses no longer are — yet the group attracts roughly the same number of converts.

Was that a necessarily 'bad' thing though from the JWs point-of-view?

The problem is that those who are 'born-in' become JWs by 'default' having made no real decision and are more likely to be 'weak' members.

Whereas those who have converted have made a specific decision to join and are therefore more likely to be 'stronger' members.

Of course the problem the JWs DO have. now. Is the lack of converts combined with born-ins leaving.

46

This week's "Give Us Your Money" meeting item.

by freddo in

jw
friends

if you went to it, (or go later this week) how was it handled?

just the video or some commentary too?.

i have heard of a few negative comments from some that attended - one jw even openly said to me "not very encouraging, all they go on about is money lately" and another (a serving elder, no less) said "someone's got to pay for all those lawsuits".

darkspilver

punkofnice: Wait until you see the Jan 18 washtowel. Guilt tripping for money.

https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/6196387802775552/january-2018-watchtower