I truly feel that the essence of the WTB&TS boils down to the same kind of control that Jones had.
I don't think there can be any arguing with that.
http://jwsurvey.org/cedars-blog/would-you-take-the-pill-a-simple-facebook-test-has-shocking-results
OneEyedJoe
JoinedPosts by OneEyedJoe
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10
The Jonestown Massacre, Remembered
by Londo111 inhttp://time.com/3583781/jonestown-massacre/.
it was 36 years ago today.. the watchtower has caused far more deaths due to the blood transfusion ban and the suicides from disfellowshipping.
unfortunately, these deaths are mostly invisible to the public, since they didnat occur at once and in one location.. .
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OneEyedJoe
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107
Will firing the DOs be the first step to a new Watchtower?
by Juan Viejo2 inagainst my better judgement, i've decided to share the following as a response to guy pierce passing and the announcement of the elimination of district overseers later this year.. late in january (2014) i got an email from one of my contacts (a fader) who served at bethel for several years, but is no longer at wt hq.
he still has a lot of close contacts within the service department and in other departments at patterson and knows people in all of the ny offices.
i kept this email set aside on a flash drive and haven't shared it with anyone - figuring i'd publish an article about it later this year when i had more time to do it right.
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OneEyedJoe
really? Like what?
'cause I don't see one single thing from the OP that has come true yet.
Thanks...I was beginning to wonder if my reading comprehension had taken a dive - the only thing in the OP that happened was the firing of the DOs, which was already a done deal at the time of the post. 144k symbolic? nope. New GB members? nope. The only other thing that could be said to have occurred is that there have been changes and hints of changes in the magazines - but that's always the case with this cult.
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creating planets how does it work?
by Crazyguy ini read that many believe planet's start out as large rocks that create some gravity there by attracting more asteroids, then comets etc and become larger and larger until its a planet.
ok but how do the explain the rotation or spinning of the planet and the energy that a planet has ie lava etc.
?.
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OneEyedJoe
The swirling effect is just created by all the gas and dust coming towards the densest point in the cloud due to gravity. As it collects, the gravity gets stronger and it swirls in faster - sorta like the water draining out of a bathtub. The rotation of the planets is the left over momentum from the same effect, combined with the effect of past impacts with other massive bodies in the early solar system.
As for the process of accretion , it's actually a bit more complicated - in the early solar system there was tons of dust and gas swirling around, but no single particle has enough gravity to bind it to another. Instead static charge starts to stick the dust together to form larger pebbles. these pebbles still don't have enough gravity to pull anything in, but through chance collisions (which often have sufficient energy to melt the rocks into a molten ball, fusing the two peices together) they'll eventually get to that point and gravity starts to take over. This is a gross simplification, but if you look up some information on accretion, I'm sure you'll find some interesting reading if you want more.
As for the molten core of the earth, it's also, to a certain extent, a left-over from the early solar system. The impacts with other proto-planets left the earth sorta a molten ball, and the surface has now cooled but the core is still hot. There's also the effect of the earth's gravity applying immense pressure on the core that keeps it hot, along with tidal forces (from both the moon and sun) that create friction inside the earth's core to heat it up.
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Organic molecules detected by Philae
by konceptual99 inhttp://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-30097648.
lots of detail to be added but very interesting news..... .
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OneEyedJoe
It seems likely that most of the water on earth was delivered by comets.
Actually, I was reading something recently that indicated that (contrary to the long-held thought that comets did it) most of the water on the earth is much older than can be explained by comets delivering it.
Not the article I initially read, but on the same topic from a quick google search:
http://www.designntrend.com/articles/23895/20141103/earths-water-older-previously-thought.htm
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42
Ongoing frustration with wife
by Flipping El ini've tried taking the slow, patient approach with my wife.
i believe i first posted here about 13 months ago about my wife.. we've always had good communication and could talk endlessly about philosophy, neuroscience, sociology and then when i learned the ttatt, i clammed up a bit about spiritual things.
i'd always been fairly liberal, suggesting other alternative ideas, but then i told my wife about the un/ngo scandal (i ran across the guardian story doing a talk as an ms, lol!
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OneEyedJoe
If me telling her would have ended this marriage then would it have lasted if some other big disagreement or problem came our way?
I think about this a lot. I think part of the problem, though, is that objection to the cult isn't seen as just any old disagreement or problem. The cult is the 3rd strand of the 3-fold cord of your marriage, and they're indoctrinated to believe that if that goes away the marriage is doomed and it becomes a self-fullfilling prophecy.
Flipping El - I don't have a lot of sage advice for you, since I'm not in any better of a situation, but I would suggest that you do at least have one advantage - you talk about it. My wife knows there's something wrong, and I've made some statements here and there about things that I object to, but she doesn't ask me anything about it. I think you may be closer than you think to reaching her if she at least is asking you what's up. One suggestion that I'd give would be to get some sort of commitment out of her prior to discussing it further. When she asks you what's wrong, ask her "if we talk about it, will you promise that you'll try to see it from my point of view without judging or making assumptions?" or maybe ask that she make an effort not to be upset that you've expressed an honest feeling.
In some ways I envy you that you talk about it at all. Because I always knew there was something wrong with JWism (and religion in general) I never really wanted to talk about it at all - it was too uncomfortable because of my many doubts. Now we're at a point where we just don't talk about it and the only JW activity we do together is sit at the kingdom hall. There's so much unspoken tension that I don't even know where to begin in addressing it. If i could get her to ask me what's wrong I feel like there'd at least be some relief. What's more, I know she's constructing her own little story about why I'm doing what I am and this imaginary story is going to do nothing but cast me in a bad light.
Anyways, please keep us updated. Hearing stories like yours is about the only source of hope that I have. Even if you don't make progress or hit a snag, it helps just to know other people are going through the same problems. Thanks for sharing.
Edited to add -
Londo - I've often thought the very same thing about Hassan's methods. When you've been born-in and married for 10 years, even asking a question that betrays some doubt is immediately viewed with suspicion. Since questions are the main way he says to get someone thinking, I just don't know what to do...
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How to wake up and reverse the trance???
by J-DUBBED inhow do you wake up someone taken from us by these screwed up people?.
our son was hooked by a jw at the age of 25. within 3 months they were married and we never even new about it.
he is now 29 and has nothing to do with his family(except his sister the odd time, when he needs something) of any freinds.. we are lost and have been for four years.. .
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OneEyedJoe
Just nice if there was some magic word to say and he'd open his eyes.
If there where, I suspect this forum would not exist. It sounds like you have a lot of work to do in order to repair your relationship with your son. You telling him that you'd rather he be a drunk/druggy instead of a JW will sound to his ears that you'd rather he be a drunk vs "serving the true god." That's almost certainly a large factor in why you've been shut out. JWs don't normally completely shun non-believing family once they're indoctrinated (though there's usually a significant withdraw). For him to completely shut you out of his life he has decided that you hate him and are persecuting him for his stance to (as he sees it) serve god. Unfortunately, you played right into their hands. New JWs are indoctrinated into expecting persecution from family/friends very soon when they start studying. When family/friends learn of their cult involvement, obviously they'll raise objections - and knowing nothing of cult mind control, they play right into the expectation of persecution. Your objection to your son's joining the cult only reinforced the indoctrination by essentially proving their prediction right. You NEED to make amends for hurting him. Write letters, send emails, call or visit, whatever it takes. You CANNOT attack him or his beliefs, only express concern for his completely withdrawing from his family that loves him.
From reading your additional posts, I'm going to restate that you absolutely need to read Steven Hassan's books. There's a lot of information there that will help you to fix the root cause of the problem. It sounds like there's a lot that needs to be repaired before you can even begin to undo his indoctrination. This is going to be a long process and will require a ton of work and patience from you.
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59
How to wake up and reverse the trance???
by J-DUBBED inhow do you wake up someone taken from us by these screwed up people?.
our son was hooked by a jw at the age of 25. within 3 months they were married and we never even new about it.
he is now 29 and has nothing to do with his family(except his sister the odd time, when he needs something) of any freinds.. we are lost and have been for four years.. .
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OneEyedJoe
Also, it might be possible to reach him by allowing him to conduct a "bible study" (in which watchtower publications will be studied, along with cherry-picked scriptures) with you. This will let him trust you, and as you learn more about the cult from his perspective, you may be able to raise questions as if they are genuine questions. There are LOTS of questions that cannot be answered (or, once you're indoctrinated, questions that cannot be asked) about this cult.
I also would suggest that you review jwfacts.com for information about the cult to educate yourself. Don't bombard your son with critical information, though, that will do nothing to shake his indoctrination and will only serve to further damage your relationship. Educate yourself, then work on reaching your son's authentic persona - the person he was before he joined the cult. Once you learn to reach his authentic persona you may be able to slowly introduce information that will help him think critically.
Instead of discussing JWs with him, try discussing the mormons or another group that he would agree is a cult. You can explain how mind control works in their group and whether he admits it or not, he'll see similarities with the JWs.
Above all, you need to give him unconditional love and support. The love of the cult is conditional on his being in the cult, yours must be superior and that will allow him to feel the support he will need in order to leave. The cult drills into you that if you leave you'll be lost with nowhere to go, and he needs to know that isn't true or else he'll feel trapped even if he knows it's all lies.
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How to wake up and reverse the trance???
by J-DUBBED inhow do you wake up someone taken from us by these screwed up people?.
our son was hooked by a jw at the age of 25. within 3 months they were married and we never even new about it.
he is now 29 and has nothing to do with his family(except his sister the odd time, when he needs something) of any freinds.. we are lost and have been for four years.. .
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OneEyedJoe
If you haven't already, I would suggest that you head over to www.freedomofmind.com - there's a case assessment that you can fill out (even if you don't actually submit it for their help it can be useful to get you thinking about the mindset of loved one). I also would recommend Steven Hassan's book Freedom of Mind. Educate yourself on the mind control that's been used on your son. The first step is to repair your relationship and try to undo any damage you might've done prior to and just after the cult recruitment. The book I referenced really is written for someone in your exact situation and has a lot of valuable insights for an outsider looking in and it has essentially a step-by-step guide to getting someone to wake up from their indoctrination.
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"You can't believe anything science says, they're always changing their minds.."
by disposable hero of hypocrisy ini know this is going to come up in a conversation shortly, how would you respond to this?
i've had it said to me before, specifically about health, one week wine/eggs/milk/axle grease is good for you, next week it's not..
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OneEyedJoe
Those kinds of statements are generally found in women's magazines at the supermarket, not scientific journals.
Some journalist cherry-picks a quote from a medical study without understanding the context or how to frame it and then it gets repeated by your ordinary, average yahoo that also doesn't know how to interpret it in any kind of context.
Yep.
When discussing something somewhat scientific that conflicts with the bible, my father in law always loves to get on stage and say "so I can't remember, is coffee good for you this week or not?" in reference to the frequent news stories that coffee will cause cancer or prevents cancer or whatever. There are a number of misunderstandings that result in this so-called proof that science hasn't got a clue.
1. As creationists love to point out - the human body is incredibly complex and therefore can sometimes be influenced by relatively small factors. This can result in studies that seem to indicate conflicting results. The truth is that many of these results are essentially noise in the data and, to go back to my example, coffee is essentially neither good nor bad for you. When the noise in the data indicates something somewhat shocking/exciting about an everyday item (like coffee, or wine, etc) it is usually heavily reported - it gets people to watch the news, and that's what the media is about, not disseminating accurate information.
2. Often studies are done on very specific effects, which are then simplified for a headline/news story. Imagine if 4 studies are done on coffee - in one the effect of excessive coffee consumption on heart health is studied, in another the effect of moderate consumption is studied, the third investigates a link between coffee consumption and colon cancer, while the fourth looks for a link between coffee and brain cancer. If the results show that moderate consumption of coffee is good for your heart, but excessive consumption is very bad for your heart, you might find that one news station reports that coffee is good for your heart, while another says it's bad for your heart. If coffee seems to increase chances of colon cancer, but decreases chances of brain cancer, you'll hear one story that coffee causes cancer and one that says it prevents it. All of these would be factually correct, but the oversimplification seems to point to a contradiction. The whole of scientific knowledge is pushed forward, but the lay-person is left with the impression that "those scientists can't make up their minds."
3. Science is a process. Sometimes a study can be flawed (or falsified as was the case with the vaccine/autism BS that's been going around for a while) and it won't be discovered for a few years as other scientists try to duplicate the results themselves. This definitely indicates that we probably shouldn't put 100% faith in the latest scientific discoveries if they're only backed by one study or a very small sample size (incedentally, scientists aren't typically the type who ask you to put faith in something - they usually just present the evidence and their conclusions and invite scrutiny). The problem is that some will seize upon this so-called failure of leading-edge science to try to dispute well-established scientific theories. I.e. One study shows coffee is bad for you but was debunked therefore you can't trust evolution. In truth, the fact that science self-corrects and identifies flawed ideas and disproves them should increase our trust in scientific knowledge that has stood the test of time.
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"You can't believe anything science says, they're always changing their minds.."
by disposable hero of hypocrisy ini know this is going to come up in a conversation shortly, how would you respond to this?
i've had it said to me before, specifically about health, one week wine/eggs/milk/axle grease is good for you, next week it's not..
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OneEyedJoe
This is a relatively common logical fallacy used by fundamentalists - inflation of conflict (Google it for example and counter arguments). It is usually accompanied by some quote or explanation of the science that demonstrates a basic misunderstanding of the science.