Thanks, cofty, for this...I hope you don't mind if I claim this research as my own should the need arise. This is especially pertinent considering the wt study in two weeks veers into a tangent on blood.
OneEyedJoe
JoinedPosts by OneEyedJoe
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My Explanation of Why They Got it Wrong About Blood Using Only the NWT
by cofty in10 " any israelite or any alien living among them who eats any bloodi will set my face against that person who eats blood and will cut him off from his people.
12 therefore i say to the israelites, "none of you may eat blood, nor may an alien living among you eat blood.
15 'anyone, whether native-born or alien, who eats anything found dead or torn by wild animals must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be ceremonially unclean till evening; then he will be clean.
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Do current JWs like to have Bible discussions?
by Magnum inon another thread rufus t. firefly made this interesting comment:.
my wife is a "zealous" regular pioneer who never talks about the bible or "the truth" and who has no interest in conducting a bible study with anyone.
this is how one remains a jw.. i decided to start a new thread to discuss this, since i didn't want to veer completely off the topic of the original thread.. i can relate to what rufus said - not concerning my wife, but other close jw family members.
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OneEyedJoe
There are some that still like to discuss the Bible (or, more accurately, the WTS' interpretation thereof) but these are usually the older ones that seem to have more of a doomsday fetish than the younger one or the more recent converts. What's more is that it's never really an open discussion - any dissent from the official interpretation and the conversation devolves into a lecture about how you need to pay better attention at meetings and toe the line.
The younger group (30's and younger) only talk about"spiritual" activities, the things they feel guilty about ("omg I know it's bad but I just had to see the new twilight movie") or some point in a recent WT that they can use to brow beat someone else that's doing something that they don't agree with (or to beat someone else down to inflate their holier than thou ego).
As for the OP's supposedly non-controversial questions - the problem is that they are controversial. Will the end come in 10 year's time? That forces them to recall that 10 years ago they would've unhesitatingly answered in the affirmative. Who's the king of the north? We used to know but things don't really fit the old predictions these days, and the light is supposed to get brighter, not dimmer.. The sad fact is that there are few questions of any depth that doesn't expose some failing of the cult - and that's why no one asked questions, they're too afraid of the answers.
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Please post new forum feedback or questions here
by Simon inwell, the switchover happened - there were a couple of things i had to fix which meant the posting was disabled for longer than i planned but it's now enabled and some people have already posted.. if you have any questions about the new format or suggestions on how to improve it, please post them here.. if you are having trouble signing in or posting then you'll need to email me instead.. many thanks to everyone for their patience during the changeover !.
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OneEyedJoe
Not sure if this has been mentioned, but paragraphs don't seem to happen for me in PMs (this is my first post since the switch, do I guess we'll see if it's a problem here, to)
I had this problem using chrome for android, but I'm not sure if that's related. I got a PM from someone else, and they had the same problem (they sent another one apologizing for it)
So this should be paragraph #3.... let's see how it goes.
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Men are not looking forward to becoming Elders or Ministerial Servants
by Hidden-Window ini have noticed an apparently increasing number of men who are not interested in becoming ministerial servants or elders.
i also know of some that have voluntarily stepped down (which is my case) for no obvious solid reason.. i remember, during my teenage years or even during my twenties, the brothers were always looking forward to being appointed... although many still do, i have noticed there are many others with whom you do not know what the deal is.. since there is no freedom of speech within the organization, we remain in the dark about the motives and desires of everybody else.
i attend a congregation with only two ministerial servants, while it is full of men who do not seem to be willing to do more.. it is hard to tell exactly what is going on, since honesty is not possible while you are inside, but i am starting to think that more and more are becoming disillusioned.... .
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OneEyedJoe
I'm curious what everybody thinks on this. Is this a purely JW phenomenon or part of a larger social phenomenon or both?
That there is a malaise among young men has become fairly well documented of late.
They don't have the interest in education, careers, marriage, family, home ownership or any of the other traditional milestones we associate with adults that previous generations did.
Could the lack of ambition among JW males be part of this? Or have they simply wised up and recognize a prison treadmill when they see one?
When talking about this topic, I always have to remember something I heard a long time ago: "Every generation thinks the one before it is old-fashioned, and the one after is doomed." Not sure if this is some famous quote, but it's quite accurate. We tend to white-wash our own past and view the current youth through the lense of our current understanding of the world. This leads to a skewed perspective, which then leads us to confirmation bias - only picking up on evidence that today's youth are worthless humans and those older than us are hopelessly out of touch.
My personal theory is that the apathy in JW ranks is due to the combination of a number of factors:
1. Decline of productivity of the ministry - even if they're not consciously aware, it's been a long time for most JWs since the last time they had a productive bible study with anyone. This is discouraging. Even on the service meeting, the "good experiences" related almost invariably end with "we had a good conversation, even though they didn't take the magazines" or something else, whereas they used to end with "I started a bible study." Morale is down because of this, and this is probably a large part of the motivation for the numerous tract campaigns - they figure if they can get the JWs to the point where they're told not to start long conversations, they won't find it as demoralizing when they don't.
2. Somewhat related to #1, the world at large is becoming more secular. In any given day, a JW's faith is assaulted from many angles - science (evolution, cosmology, and archeology especially), increased connectivity to good people that aren't JWs, increased connectivity with JWs that may have left/faded, TVs shows and movies about scientologists and mormon/LDS cults, and a general disgust with evangelical christians. In response to all this, it's much easier to just not talk about being a JW with anyone. Any open/honest conversation would lead them to question their faith, and that's something that many are afraid to do. The only time they talk JW stuff is in groups that are exclusively JW, or in service. Outside of that, they don't want to do it. When they don't live it 100% of the time, it's harder to be zealous and to want to do it more, because they're probably happier when they don't have thier JW hat on.
3. This generation hasn't had their 1975 style fiasco. Failed predictions like that (and 1914-1925) do 2 things: weed out fence sitters and force those who remain to double-down and become more zealous. The net result is that you have a much higher percentage of people who are going to "reach out" for priveledges.
4. These days time is at a premium. There's always something that you can do to entertain yourself, and boredom isn't tolerated for more than a few minutes. In service, it's looked down upon to be playing angry birds on your phone while in the car, so it's super boring. The boredom of service is making a greater impact on the zeal of the younger generation than it did on mine (and I'm not that old at 30).
There's probably more to it still, and the culture of today's youth probably doesn't help much (and that's partially encompassed in point #4) but I don't think that's the sole problem.
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Men are not looking forward to becoming Elders or Ministerial Servants
by Hidden-Window ini have noticed an apparently increasing number of men who are not interested in becoming ministerial servants or elders.
i also know of some that have voluntarily stepped down (which is my case) for no obvious solid reason.. i remember, during my teenage years or even during my twenties, the brothers were always looking forward to being appointed... although many still do, i have noticed there are many others with whom you do not know what the deal is.. since there is no freedom of speech within the organization, we remain in the dark about the motives and desires of everybody else.
i attend a congregation with only two ministerial servants, while it is full of men who do not seem to be willing to do more.. it is hard to tell exactly what is going on, since honesty is not possible while you are inside, but i am starting to think that more and more are becoming disillusioned.... .
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OneEyedJoe
This was the general rule in my area. If you were a young man who (1) avoided getting into serious trouble with the elders (2) was regular at all meetings and (3) put in at least 10 hours a month in field service, you'd make ministerial servant by 20/21.
Maybe I was just always in the wrong croud, but I didn't know many young pioneers and everyone I grew up with that didn't get in trouble where MSes in their mid-late 20s. There's one uber-dub in the group, though, that was made an MS at 18, elder at 22 or 23. Man did that do a number on his ego. Its rare that I'll encounter anyone with a way of speaking that equals his in pretension.
I was publically reproved for drinking when I was 20 or 21. I can't remember the exact year anymore. In any event, I went from feeling like some giant stud to feeling like an outcast. My reputation had been destroyed. I began dating a girl a few years after my reproval and it was going great until her family found out I'd been reproved. You'd have thought her dauther was dating a drug-dealing, gang-banger with a felony conviction. It was awful.
A little off-topic, but it always struck me as shameful the way people would treat someone who'd been reproved, even if it had been years prior. Years ago I knew a girl that started dating some former bethelite that had been reproved about a year prior (of course, no one knew what for, but EVERYONE assumed it was fornication). A number of people questioned her choice because he'd been reproved. The contrast between this behavior and Jesus' words to forgive your brother 77 times (as well as many other oft-cited principles on forgiveness) was quite stark.
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New forum 'parousia' is upon us! (software version)
by Simon inthe time has nearly come to switch over to the new forum software.
of course it's not completely finished yet (and never will be) but i think it's good enough to go live with and probably already better than the current one.
i'll give you a quick overview of what to expect and post more detail about the changeover process later.. cloud platform.
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OneEyedJoe
'So where is this promised forum parousia of his? Why from the day Simon posted this thread, all things are continuing exactly as in the days of our forefathers.'
Ye of little faith! The dates given are accurate, for these are Simon's dates, not ours. Surely we have misunderstood the meaning of the word spoken, but can have faith that the timeline is accurate. The new forum is present, as promised, it is merely an invisible presence!
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Public Speaker Training stifled by wt, it's new 'school' programme.
by prologos inthe 2015 school setup, discussed this week eliminates the last "school talk" by brothers in favour of 'demonstartions" (a la sisters conversations) of family worship sessions and the like.. is this not a shift away from encouraging bright young ones to hone their (under-estimated) speaker skills ---to.
now using more of the die-hard, org-bound, --even elders in indoctrination demonstrations?.
do you see this trend?
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OneEyedJoe
One other detail is slightly different from the opening post. The brother giving the Bible highlights actually only has TWO minutes to give his point. So one of the only times a brother has the opportunity to express his own thoughts about a passage of scripture has been cut in half.
I remember when the highlights were an unscripted 6 minutes for the brother - then it was cut to 4 and now 2.
Two minutes and he is only allowed to consider one highlight point. Information control much?
Yep, now even if an awake elder/MS gets the part, any anti-WTS point that might be made will quickly be drowned out by the comments of the other elders and elders' wives. At the same time, they make the part "easier" for those that are just floating and avoiding getting appointed because they don't want to do more talks. win-win for them.
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Men are not looking forward to becoming Elders or Ministerial Servants
by Hidden-Window ini have noticed an apparently increasing number of men who are not interested in becoming ministerial servants or elders.
i also know of some that have voluntarily stepped down (which is my case) for no obvious solid reason.. i remember, during my teenage years or even during my twenties, the brothers were always looking forward to being appointed... although many still do, i have noticed there are many others with whom you do not know what the deal is.. since there is no freedom of speech within the organization, we remain in the dark about the motives and desires of everybody else.
i attend a congregation with only two ministerial servants, while it is full of men who do not seem to be willing to do more.. it is hard to tell exactly what is going on, since honesty is not possible while you are inside, but i am starting to think that more and more are becoming disillusioned.... .
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OneEyedJoe
When I was in, a lot of women wouldn't consider dating a man unless he was serving in some official capacity. On the flip side, having some sort of appointment could give a young man access to women he'd otherwise have no shot with. The incentive was such that a lot of young male JWs would seek the appointment even if they weren't fully invested in JWism.
In my experience the kids usually get married before they're old enough to be serioiusly considered as an MS (unless they're the super-zealous type that makes elder by 22). I suppose, though, that women marrying men that aren't at least an MS may be an issue, since it managed to make it's way into AMIII's zone visit talk. Though, by that logic, men wearing tight pants is also an issue in the org - trying to make sense of that talk is a bit of a crapshoot.
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does the wt always carefully phrase sentences so as to never take blame?
by sowhatnow inim recalling a time when i sat and circled words in a watchtower article, indicating strongly the fact that it is in fact the writters opinion.. however just the suggestion in the sentence these words are ignored.. for example.
it is our understanding.
we believe this to be the case.
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OneEyedJoe
It is interesting to compare WT literature paragraphs which use qualified (aka 'weasel') wording, with the questions that often accompany the paragraphs. It is not uncommon for the question to want the reader or audience to make a definite assertion to what the paragraph is only tentative about.
This, or the paragraph will say "many feel xyz about..." and the question forces you to internalize this to yourself "how do you feel about...?"
The writers aren't willing to commit to feeling that way, but you'd damn well better!
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Men are not looking forward to becoming Elders or Ministerial Servants
by Hidden-Window ini have noticed an apparently increasing number of men who are not interested in becoming ministerial servants or elders.
i also know of some that have voluntarily stepped down (which is my case) for no obvious solid reason.. i remember, during my teenage years or even during my twenties, the brothers were always looking forward to being appointed... although many still do, i have noticed there are many others with whom you do not know what the deal is.. since there is no freedom of speech within the organization, we remain in the dark about the motives and desires of everybody else.
i attend a congregation with only two ministerial servants, while it is full of men who do not seem to be willing to do more.. it is hard to tell exactly what is going on, since honesty is not possible while you are inside, but i am starting to think that more and more are becoming disillusioned.... .
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OneEyedJoe
In my congregation, there are three types of ministerial servants:
1. The born-in children of the suber-zealous service overseer. They all still live at home and have absolutely no world experience.
2. Adult converts, of which there are 2 in our congregation. Both moving up very quickly in spite of clear...er...mental challenges. These men are idiots and fit the janitor/window washer stereotype that's thrown around here perfectly.
3. The older born-ins that have no interest in being an elder - there's probably 4 MSs that are in this group and they're in their 40s and 50s now.
There's a few others in the 20-30 year old range (born-ins) that don't seem to have any interest in "reaching out." I don't think any of these are really aware of TTATT on any level necessarily, but they're just tired from life in a cult and want to float and be left alone. The problem with kids failing to reach out has become so bad in our congregation that the elders decided to hold a special meeting one sunday just for the males in order to guilt-trip us about "reaching out." I guess in their mind the only thing that could be holding us back was our humbly thinking that we're not good enough to be appointed, so they brought pictures of the elders from their highschool days to show us how unruly these people used to be. Since then (like 2 years ago) only 1 adult convert has been appointed to MS, and 1 MS from the 3rd group was made an elder, so I guess an over abundance of humility isn't the problem.