Fun fact: sometimes the medical treatment in extreme cases for alcohol withdrawal (you know, for someone that the doctor might've instructed to "abstain from alcohol") is to administer alcohol intravenously. So their illustration immediately falls apart. If your doctor tells you to abstain from alcohol, there are still situations where that same doctor might inject alcohol into your veins. If anything, that illustration proves the point that if something that you would normally abstain from becomes medically necessary then an exception should be made.
OneEyedJoe
JoinedPosts by OneEyedJoe
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Need Help with Blood Transfusion Illustration
by Dissonant15 inplease, who can provide an intelligent rebuttal to the following illustration?
i always thought it was bullet-proof:.
"if your doctor directs you to 'abstain from alcohol' would you be ok to have it injected into your veins rather than drink it?
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Fading policies and doctrines
by Saltheart Foamfollower infirst a clarification - this is not about policies on faders etc.
it is about how the borg allow policies and doctrines to fade rather than correct them and apologise for mistakes.
here are two examples of what i mean:.
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OneEyedJoe
They try things to see if it sticks and if not, they drop it. I think that's how most cults evolve - they're not lead by psychologists that are experts on manipulation, they just try lots of stuff and stumble upon things that work and keep doing it. The JWs didn't start out with DFing, but they tried it and it worked so they kept it up.
Another idea that they've allowed to fade away is the 7000 year creative day. They've never said they were wrong but they've stopped talking about it and a CO recently gave a talk in which he acknowledged the age of the universe as being 13.8 billion years.
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"I would rather have Questions that I can't answer, instead of Answers that I can't question"
by stuckinarut2 in.
how very thought provoking this quote is, especially in the context of witness doctrine!.
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OneEyedJoe
That would have to generate something in most of them, right?
Probably not, especially not the current generation of JWs (those under ~35 years old). Most of them don't have questions, they just sort of listen and accept everything in the KH and then they go off and live their lives not thinking about it. The only way this quote is going to make someone think is if they have experienced asking one of the many forbidden questions and being shut down with social pressure and receiving no answer. Without am emotional connection to the quote based on some experience (or some question that they're too afraid to ask) they won't give it another thought.
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"I would rather have Questions that I can't answer, instead of Answers that I can't question"
by stuckinarut2 in.
how very thought provoking this quote is, especially in the context of witness doctrine!.
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OneEyedJoe
I used that quote in a discussion with a JW (conditional) friend of mine. He was questioning me about all kinds of things, basically asking "if this isn't true, what better thing do you have to offer me?" in a bunch of different ways. When I said "I'd rather have questions I can't answer than answers I can't question." he stared at me completely stunned for a moment. It didn't take long for the indoctrination to kick in, but hopefully that sits with him and is remembered the next time he has a question about something in the cult that can't be asked.
It's a powerful and eloquent quote to be sure. So well said.
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How wonderful is JW.ORG
by Sabin inthere are some who still love the organization & the people in it.. who understand that every large organization has their own issues.. they believe the advice on what type of person you are supposed to be & how to treat others has made them a better person.
and they believe, quite frankly, even if the g.b are a bunch of narcissistic wannabe powerful guys, the worest thing they have done is to wake up people on saturday mornings.. i`ve been awake most of the night thinking about this, wondering if this person had a point.
then something came to my mind.
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OneEyedJoe
Ugh. I hate this damn cult. Print something that the public sees and thinks "ahh good they're looking out for kids" then they go and retract it to the elders, where it matters. -
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I'm not so sure a bigger awakening is going to happen anymore
by bradford inwhen i left in march officially i started reading the forums here.
i had this excitement that more people would be leaving soon because of the crazy broadcasts, the crazy "new light" that the gb was dishing out, and more recently the australian royal commission lighting up geoffrey.
this past saturday i had an elder stop by to chat for the first time since i left.
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OneEyedJoe
I think there will be more leaving in the future than was typical of the past, but I agree that there will not be a single sudden exodus.
On another note - I can definitely understand the feeling of a conversation like that hitting you afterwards, especially when it's someone you care about. I had a long talk with one of my (conditional) friends about my reasons for leaving only to be met with opposition at every turn. That has a way of making you feel misunderstood and lonely afterwards.
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Just had a former elder friend tell me, “This Overlapping generation is crap.
by John Aquila inlast night i ran into a former elder friend, he is in his late 70s.
he asked how i was doing and i asked how he was doing.
then out of the blue he tells me; .
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OneEyedJoe
Well the LEADERS of this religion consistently claim it will, soon in fact.
So if these people don't believe the WT leaders, then why, of why, do they follow them?
My wife (in her early 30s) recently said that she fully expects to grow old and die before the new system comes. I asked her why she doesn't believe what they're telling her - that it's going to come soon - and she couldn't answer. I think it's just a defense mechanism. They realize on some level that they're probably wrong and they see that if they profess full faith in the idea that armageddon will come soon they're making a testable prediction that can later be brought back to prove that they were wrong. Instead they prefer to stick to the untestable claims of the cult.
Of course because they don't realize they're in a cult, they're in denial over the fact that they cannot express that they do not agree with a certain teaching. They're also in denial over the fact that if the generation teaching is wrong and every JW currently living will die before armageddon then this teaching is having a huge negative impact on the lives of those who do believe. They refuse to acknowledge that people are failing to save for retirement, not going to college, skipping out on medical care, on and on only because they believe the lie. If they do acknowledge it they make the claim that "everyone is responsible for their own decisions" or something similar. They either blind themselves to the behavior of others or to the fact that the organization has more influence over their lives than it should if it's wrong.
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Lurker trying to gain clarity
by questioningmyfaith inhello all, i would like to first say that i am basically questioning my faith in god.
i am not negative towards the wt at all.
so honestly i am to concerned with more ad hominem attacks towards the wt because i still love the organization and the people in it.
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OneEyedJoe
I don't know if you've read anti-JW info or not, because you didn't say. A lot of JWs succumb to the phobia indoctrination and are quite fearful at the idea of reading apostate sites. Obviously you've broken through some of that by posting here, but I don't know how much.
I think perhaps I misunderstood what you meant when you said you loved the organization. I agree that JWs trapped in this organization are mostly deserving of our compassion. They're in a tough spot to be sure. We're in agreement there. My point also was not to convince you of anything, just to illustrate the point of why so many are justifiably angry at the organization, in hopes that you (and perhaps other lurkers like you were) might cut some people some slack and not immediately dismiss everything that's said just because it betrays obvious anger at the watchtower society. That anger also can have a tendency to linger since as you correctly point out, individual JWs are mostly just trying their best and there is therefore nowhere to really direct one's anger upon waking up to the fact that they've been systematically lied to for their entire lives.
To your specific points - I don't blame the WTS for the actions of the vile men in Malawi, but the leadership was aware of the problem and made no attempt to compromise or even make purchasing a party card a "conscience matter." Instead they insisted that anyone who submit to the superior authorities in this way (which involved no more a declaration of loyalty to a government than what the GB members themselves signed when they got their passports) should be disfellowshipped and shunned. In this case, it seems likely to me that many who would otherwise have been enabled by their conscience to escape the vile treatment they were subjected to chose instead to submit to the watchtower's rules as the thought of trying to live without their family and friends and all whom they ever loved would be too much to bear.
I don't think there have been numbers put to the suicides due to shunning, but it has definitely happened many times. It is obviously not literally "countless" as there is certainly a number to it, but I think even one suicide is too many if it could have been prevented had someone's parent's natural affection been allowed. You're correct in that there are varying degrees of adherence to the shunning dictate, but that doesn't make it right and because of the undue influence that JWs have been subjected to, they are not entirely to blame here.
You're also quite correct that families break up all the time. But does that mean that adding additional sources of marital distress is just fine to do? Marriages break up all the time, so there'd be nothing wrong with me creating false evidence of an affair and presenting it to a friend's wife? One extra broken marriage due to the indoctrination of the watchtower is too many. Especially when it's yours.
There may not be malevolent motives (though we'll have to agree to disagree there - it seems impossible to me that everything comes from benevolence) but that doesn't make the actions any less angering. There may not be malevolent motives when a company fails to enforce safety compliance, but they're still held accountable for a death and they still are (justifiably in my opinion) the target of a great deal of anger. They may not be actively setting out to cause deaths, but they are causing them and they know it. Their negligence in this regard has left them with blood on their hands even if there was no bad motive. The bible itself affirms this principle.
On the topic of blood - I wholeheartedly believe that bloodless surgery would've come about without the Jehovah's Witness blood ban. It may not have gone exactly as it has, but I think it's obvious that preventing blood loss during surgery is better than just transfusing a ton of someone else's blood. Furthermore, I'm perfectly ok with it if someone chooses to sacrifice their life in order to further medical science. However, what I'm not OK with is someone who might, based on their own interpretation of scripture, see no reason why they should refuse blood from a living donor but faced with the loss of everyone that they've ever known and loved choose to risk death rather than live on with that loss. I'm also not OK with children being allowed to die due to the religious beliefs of their parents. In spite of what the watchtower propaganda might state, it is my belief that minor children are not of sufficiently sound mind to make this choice. These people did not choose to sacrifice their lives in order to further medicine, they chose death as a result of having been systematically lied to.
Again, I'm not trying to convince you of the truth of any of the watchtower society's crimes. All I'm suggesting is that you might benefit from looking at things from another perspective to see if maybe some of the anger that's out could possibly be justified. Maybe it's somewhat misplaced in that most JWs really do have the best of intentions, but it's only natural to be angered by life's injustices and by the injuries inflicted upon you personally. If there's no where to direct that anger, maybe it doesn't always come out in a helpful way, but it's still justified anger that should not be invalidated.
Lastly, I want to thank you for sharing your thoughts on my post, as I'm not certain I would've done so in your position. I'm truly sorry if you felt I was insulting your intelligence or if you took offense in any way. That was certainly not my intent. I was once in your position, and I look back on those times with regret over the amount of time I was trapped with the "bitter apostates" indoctrination keeping me from looking at objective information. It took me a while to think my way out. Since I see myself as being in a much freer state now, and I'm very happy to have gotten here, I simply wanted to make a suggestion that might've helped me once.
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Lurker trying to gain clarity
by questioningmyfaith inhello all, i would like to first say that i am basically questioning my faith in god.
i am not negative towards the wt at all.
so honestly i am to concerned with more ad hominem attacks towards the wt because i still love the organization and the people in it.
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OneEyedJoe
This reminds me of the Socrates quote from over 1600 years ago:
The children now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise.
The fact is that every generation thinks the outgoing generation is old fashioned and that the next generation is doomed. You're focusing on the bad news which is often sensationalized and put forth more because it sells. There's lots of good news out there too, though. There have been people in every generation for the last 2000 years that thought that "critical times hard to deal with will be here" was being fulfilled. Meanwhile the world has improved by just about every metric there is.
On a bit of a tangent - I'd encourage you to consider a thought experiment to see if maybe the "ad hominem attacks" against the watchtower might be justified. Lets assume for a minute that you're doubts are well founded and there is no god. That would mean that the watchtower has caused the needless death of thousands due to their policy on blood transfusions. They've contributed to the brutal torture, rape and murder of many in Malawi for insisting that JWs not purchase a party card. They've contributed to countless suicides through their institutionalized shunning of young kids whos only crime was giving in to a powerful natural impulse. They've broken up families when one spouse decides that it's no longer for them. These things are indisputable, and the list goes on. While I agree with you that most JWs have good intentions and just want to serve god, I hope you will agree that IF there is no god then this organization has a lot to answer for.
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Going Nuclear - Marriage
by Sofia Lose inhas anyone here gone nuclear on their spouse and, all of a sudden, came out in the open as a jw opposer?.
by this i mean, sitting them down and saying: i no longer want to be a jw anymore, do not want to go to meetings or preaching anymore!
and, what has happened in the relationship after that?.
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OneEyedJoe
I notice it is the guys that have gone nuclear and it seems easier than if it is the woman that does it. Correct me if wrong on this.
I think it just depends on your relationship how easy it is. The WT teachings can definitely have a way of training men to be overbearing and see themselves as the supreme leader of their household. Not all JW men aspire to be that, though, and hopefully that's not the case with your husband. That's definitely one element that could make this more difficult for women but I hope your husband gives you the proper respect that you deserve if/when you decide to be open with the fact that you no longer believe in the cult.
It's also possible that you're getting responses from men here because we're all just suckers for a damsel in distress.