Pete,
This is a very interesting lecture.
Can you please give us a link to the site?
Thanks for posting it.
non-roman fonts used: spionic .
this article is also available in transliteration and text-only formats.
editor's note: bart ehrman delivered the kenneth w. clark lectures at duke divinity school in 1997. this article, though slightly modified from the oral presentation, preserves the original flavor of the lecture.
Pete,
This is a very interesting lecture.
Can you please give us a link to the site?
Thanks for posting it.
.
now that we're starting to read the bible at the beginning again.........i was wondering if this subject has ever been discussed.. the length of the creative days........used to be considered 7000 years in length.......stated rather dogmatically up until around the mid 1980's.
(aid book says this......insight book does not) of course....this is quite rediculous.......... more recent publications don't stress this .........just periods of time.......... yet there was never anything published to indicate how wrong this old view was.........done very gradually.......i think some still think the creative days were still 7000 years long.. if this topic has come up before.....maybe someone could post a link to it..
The creation story of Genesis, while showing the important fact that Yahweh created everything, has many similarities and mixtures of other cultures in which the Hebrews were submerged.
The 7-24-hour day motif, seems to be highly metaphorical, and not accurate in its descriptions.
If God were to inspire someone to give an accurate description of creation, we would be unable to comprehend it even in our modern 21st-century. Of course God would gloss over the intricate details, and inspire something that we could comprehend as true, according to our limited understanding we haven't even in the 21st-century. This tecnically would not be true but merely close to true as we understand thing now.
If we go back 3000 years from now, the understanding of the natural world, was through myths, not science, for man had not advanced that far yet, and so the Genesis account even if inspired, God would simplify things, and speaking the concepts of that day. That it is highly metaphorical in its seven-day motif, is seen by the fact that God rests on the seventh day as if tired from all that work he's been doing on the six previous days. The ancient Hebrew language, is highly metaphorical, with very few words for addressing abstract ideas. This is the way they communicated before Greeks settled the promised land and brought with them Greek culture and Greek language with its ability to express abstract thoughts. It is very important to note this when reading the Old Testament in order to get a better idea of what is being expressed, and not reading to literally as if it was written in the 21st-century. Often persons have the common tendency to forget the limited concepts of the ancient Hebrews.
It is important when reading the book of Genesis, that one not expect, it to be written in the highly scientific language of the 21st-century. If we do we will expect the wrong things, and draw wrong conclusions.
Neither is the book of Genesis highly accurate in its history either. Many of the stories found in Genesis, were oral stories told and retold for generations, and then later put in written form. The stories have changed through the retelling of them over the years before they were written down, they also reflect Hebrew interpretation of events that often put God in every single event that happens, for example; if there's a storm God caused it, if doesn't rain it means God is angry, it a civilization like Sodom and Gomorrah is destroyed, it must've been God who did for their sins etc.... The way ancient cultures viewed things is bound to show up in how they interpret history. This should also be evident in an ancient book like Genesis.
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secular history gives much evidence to show that the survivors of noah?s flood were real historical figures, whose names were indelibly carved on much of the ancient world ?
http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/4215cen_s1998.asp
Myths in the Bible.
The way I see it, myths are good thing, as men began to evolve a bigger brain, and as his intelligence grew, he needed answers. Myths help explain what was currently unexplainable. They help man makes sense of his world.
All ancient cultures, have myths, the Hebrews are no different, from the people that surrounded them. They had questions that needed answers, and myths provided some of those answers, or at least attempted.
Many Bible scholars, recognize in the first 19 chapters Genesis, is medieval history.
Many persons especially of the fundamentalist background act as if the Bible dropped out of the sky from God. They forget that the Bible was not written in a vacuum, but it naturally reflects the cultures in which it was written with all their wrong understandings of science and nature.
I think it is ridiculous to conclude that God is going to correct ancient cultures of all their wrong understandings simply because he's having dealings with a particular group. If it is God's purpose for man is to evolve why would he, spoil it for his species, to learn about the universe the natural way he intended.
If God transcends time and space, and he communicates with creatures who are limited by time and space such as ourselves, he cannot possibly explain his existence and what absolute reality is to us, and so he meets us where we are in the stream of time and understanding.
The Bible was written by man not wholly under direct inspiration of God, like I might use the keys of typewriter, so that every word that's in the Bible is directly from God and infallible.
The Bible is a collection of many different types of literature in many different styles, some are myths, poems, moral stories, and other genera that was common at the time and in the culture in which it was written. There are even fairy tales in the Bible.
Often the words and thoughts in the Bible, reflects the writer's interpretation of events, these events were not written down immediately after they happened, but were told as stories for decades, or even hundreds of years, and then finally collected and written. While at times they may reflect accurately on customs of the past, they can hardly be relied upon to be accurate history as we today in the 21st-century view history, and reporting of history.
The Bible reflects especially in that beginning chapters Genesis, how much stories can change as being told and retold over long periods of time, and then later written down, by a skilled storyteller of the time.
here's the book of enoch link for those interested:.
lets compare the book of jude, 2peter and1enoch and notice some startling similarities:.
jude -14 yes, the seventh one [in line] from adam, enoch, (enoch 60: 8 ) prophesied also regarding them, when he said (enoch 1:9): "look!
Leolaia,
Yes I considered very helpful, and thank you.
I'm interested in trying to understand so-called "acceptable" Christian Bible canon of the New Testament.
I don't believe in the inerrancy of Scripture. And so I'm interested in where some of the Bible writers got there ideas from. I do believe in the inspiration of Scripture, just that I'm unsure where the locus of inspiration really lies.
I do think that Jesus Christ was sent by God, but I do not hold to the Bible being totally uncorrupted, and inerrant, for commonsense shows that "man" determined what was part Bible cannon and what was not. And they've changed in the early years for onetime one book could be acceptable then years later it's rejected and there was no common consensus as to what was part of the Bible cannon. So I think it's important to look at history, as honestly as one can.
The book of Enoch, I think offers some explanation although not complete it does shed some light.
here's the book of enoch link for those interested:.
lets compare the book of jude, 2peter and1enoch and notice some startling similarities:.
jude -14 yes, the seventh one [in line] from adam, enoch, (enoch 60: 8 ) prophesied also regarding them, when he said (enoch 1:9): "look!
Leolalia,
If you have additional info please share it.
Also the reference in Jude about the Devil desputing with Micheal about moses body is taken from the book called the "Assumption of Moses", which they have only found fragments.
here's the book of enoch link for those interested:.
lets compare the book of jude, 2peter and1enoch and notice some startling similarities:.
jude -14 yes, the seventh one [in line] from adam, enoch, (enoch 60: 8 ) prophesied also regarding them, when he said (enoch 1:9): "look!
Here is a list this is from a Preterist(Beleif that Jesus end time prophecy was completely fulfilled 70 AD.
Here is the site as well: http://www.preterist.org/articles-old/book_of_enoch.htm
In closing, we will list a few of the more significant statements in 1 Enoch which have close parallels in the New Testament writings. We believe these need much closer examination in the interests of not only seeing the intertestamental background of the New Testament writings, but to help understand the preterist view as well.
1.9
Quoted by Jude (see above).
10.7
?the healing of the earth? (cf. Rom. 8:18-21).
12.1
?the great glory sat...more brightly than the sun...no flesh could behold him? (cf. 1 Tim. 6:16).
12-14
Enoch preaches to the spirits in prison that waited in the days of Noah (cf. 1 Pet. 3:18-20).
15.7
Angels not marrying or being given in marriage (cf. Lk. 20.35).
16.1-2
Evil spirits permitted to destroy until the consummation of the age (cf. Mat. 8:29).
19.3
?the end of all things? (cf. 1 Pet. 4:7).
22.7
Souls crying out for judgment (cf. Rev. 6:9-10).
25.3-5
Description of the tree of life restored (cf. Rev. 22:1ff).
38.2
The appearance of ?the Righteous One? is linked to the appearance of the ?light? (cf. John 1).
38.4
?those that possess the earth shall no longer be powerful and exalted? (cf. 1 Cor. 2:6).
38.4
?For the Lord of Spirits has caused His light to appear on the face of the holy, righteous, and elect? (cf. 2 Cor. 3:18ff).
41.2
?mansions of the elect? (cf. John 14:2).
46.3
?This is the Son of Man...who revealeth all the treasures of that which is hidden? (cf. Col. 2:3; John 4).
48-51
Numerous New Testament echoes:
48.4
?Light of the Gentiles?;
48.3
?those who have fallen asleep in righteousness?;
48.4
?he shall judge the secret things?;
48.5
?All...shall fall down and worship him?;
48.6
?chosen hidden before Him before the creation of the world?;
48.6
?in his name they are saved...according to his good pleasure?;
50.3a
?through his name shall they be saved?;
50.3b
?all the secrets of wisdom and counsel... the Lord of Spirits hath given to him?.
56.5-8
?in those days the angels shall return...shall stir up the kings...shall go up and tread under foot the land of His elect ones...shall be swallowed up? (cf. Rev. 20).
58.5
?And after this it shall be said to the holy in heaven that they should seek out the secrets of righteousness, the heritage of faith. For it has become bright as sun upon earth and darkness is past? (cf. Eph. 3:10; 1 Pet. 1:12; Rom. 13:12).
62.2
?the word of his mouth slays all the sinners? (cf. Rev. 19:15).
62.4
?as on a woman in travail? (cf. Mark 13:8).
62.5
?when they see the Son of Man sitting on the throne of his glory? (Mt. 25:31).
62.5-11
The Lord will execute vengeance upon ?those who rule the world? (1 Cor. 2:6).
62.12
?wrath of the Lord of Spirits resteth upon them, and His sword is drunk with their blood? (cf. Revelation).
62.13-16
?The righteous and elect shall be saved on that day...and with that Son of Man shall they eat...shall have risen from the earth...clothed with garments of glory...and...shall not grow old? (cf. Mt. 26:29; 1 Thess. 4:17; 2 Cor. 5:1-2).
71.5
Translated into heaven, Enoch sees ?a structure built of crystals and...tongues of living fire? (Rev. 21:11; Acts 2:3-4).
71.15
?the world to come? (cf. Heb. 2:5).
71.16
?they shall not be separated from him forever and ever and ever? (cf. Rom. 8:35ff).
90.26-27
The fate of the sinners: to be thrown into Gehenna ? ?this abyss was to the right of that house? (cf. Mt. 23:33).
90.29
The Lord of the sheep brings ?a new house greater and loftier than the first? (cf. Heb. 3:6; 13:14).
91.3-4
The ?double heart? (cf. Jas. 1:8).
91.7
The increase of sin and violence comes prior to the Lord?s coming in judgment (cf. Luke 21:9; 2 Thess. 2:3).
91.10
?And all the righteous shall arise from their sleep? (cf. 1 Thess. 4:15).
93.1-16
The ?Apocalypse of Weeks? depicts the rise of ?an apostate generation? and its destruction, after which a ?new heaven? appears (cf. Mt. 23:36; 2 Pet. 3:13).
94.8-9
?Woe to you ye rich, for ye have trusted in your riches....Ye have committed blasphemy and unrighteousness and have become ready for the day of slaughter and the day of darkness and the day of great judgment? (cf. Jas. 5:1ff).
95.4-7
?Woe to you ...? (cf. Matt. 23).
96:1
?suddenly shall the sinners perish before you? (cf. 1 Thess. 5:1-3)
99.2
?they shall be trodden under foot? (cf. Rom. 16:20).
100.3
?horse shall walk up to the breast in the blood of sinners? (cf. Rev. 14:20).
100.5
?though the righteous sleep a long sleep, they have nought to fear? (cf. 1 Thess. 4:13ff).
100:9
?In blazing flames burning worse than fire shall ye burn? (cf. 2 Thess. 1:7; Heb. 10:27; 12:18, 29; Rev. 18:8; 20:9)
103.8
?the great judgment shall be for all the generations of the world? (cf. Mt. 23:32ff).
104.1
?in heaven the angels remember you for good before the glory of the Great One? (cf. Mt. 18:10); ?ye shall shine as the lights of heaven? (cf. Phil. 2:15); ?cast not away your hope? (cf. Heb. 10:23ff).
105.2
?For I and My Son will be united with them forever? (cf. John 14:23).
107.1
?generation upon generation shall transgress till a generation of righteousness arises? (cf. Acts 2).
108.2
?in the last days? (cf. 1 Tim. 4:1; 2 Tim. 3:1; Heb. 1:2).
108.7
?written...that the angels may read them? (cf. Eph. 3:10; 1 Pet. 1:12).
108.11-13
?I will transform those who were born in darkness....And I will bring forth in shining light those who have loved my holy name, and I will seat each on the throne of my honor? (cf. 1 Cor. 15:51; Eph. 2:6; Col. 1:13; Mt. 19:28).
here's the book of enoch link for those interested:.
lets compare the book of jude, 2peter and1enoch and notice some startling similarities:.
jude -14 yes, the seventh one [in line] from adam, enoch, (enoch 60: 8 ) prophesied also regarding them, when he said (enoch 1:9): "look!
Here's the book of Enoch link for those interested:
www.altheim.com/lit/enoch.html
Lets compare the book of Jude, 2Peter and1Enoch and notice some startling similarities:
Jude -14 Yes, the seventh one [in line] from Adam, Enoch, (Enoch 60: 8 ) prophesied also regarding them, when he said (Enoch 1:9): "Look! Jehovah came with his holy myriads, 15 to execute judgment against all, and to convict all the ungodly concerning all their ungodly deeds that they did in an ungodly way, and concerning all the shocking things that ungodly sinners spoke against him."
Enoch 1:9 And behold! He cometh with ten thousands of His holy ones to execute judgment upon all, and to destroy all the ungodly; and to convict all flesh of all the works of their ungodliness which they have ungodly committed, and of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.
And 1Enoch 60:8b ?where my grandfather was taken up, the seventh from Adam, the first man.
According to researchers the Book of Enoch was written before Jude or 2Peter, It definitely is not of Christian origins, and was part of the Qumran or Dead sea scrolls find and is quoted by other OT apocrypha (so that would make it highly unlikely that Enoch would have been quoting from Christian writings.
The Book of Enoch was read by the early Christian community as evidence of the book of Jude and the 2 Peter.
It is very interesting that Jude and 2 Peter have some very similar subject matter about the fallen angels that bares a remarkable similarity to the Book of Enoch examples:
Jude 6: ?And the angels that did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place, he has reserved with eternal bonds under dense darkness for the judgment of the great day?
2Peter 2:4 ? Certainly if God didn?t hold back from punishing angels that sinned. But by throwing them into Tartararus delivered them to pits of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment.?
1Enoch 12:5Then the Lord said to me: Enoch, scribe of righteousness, go tell the Watchers of heaven, who have deserted the lofty sky, and their holy everlasting station, who have been polluted with women.6And have done as the sons of men do, by taking to themselves wives, and who have been greatly corrupted on the earth;
7That on the earth they shall never obtain peace and remission of sin. For they shall not rejoice in their offspring; they shall behold the slaughter of their beloved; shall lament for the destruction of their sons; and shall petition forever; but shall not obtain mercy and peace.
Here is something interesting about the very real impact the book of Enoch has had on apocalyptic literature in the NT. I think it has some value of understanding where Christians may have gotten some of there ideas.
I got the below information from this link:
www.preterist.org/articles-old/book_of_enoch.htm
According to Jude, there were ?certain men crept in privily ... who were of old, written of beforehand unto this condemnation? (Jude 4). Written of beforehand? Who wrote about their condemnation beforehand? According to Jude, Enoch did. In other words, Jude is saying that Enoch wrote about an event that was to take place, not in his own time, but in Jude?s time, the time of the New Testament. In fact, that is how 1 Enoch begins, with God opening Enoch?s eyes, enabling him to see what should befall the elect, ?not for this generation,? Enoch is told by an angel, ?but for a remote one which is to come? (1 Enoch 1.2), at which time ?there shall be a judgment upon all men? (1.7).
According to 1 Enoch 10.12, this judgment was to occur ?seventy generations? from Enoch, during which time the angels who sinned were to be kept in bonds ?until the day of the consummation, the great judgment in which the age shall be consummated? (16.1-2). It should be noted that according to Luke (who claims to have ?traced the course of all things accurately from the first? in Luke 1.1-4), there are exactly seventy generations from the generation of Enoch to the generation of Jesus Christ (Luke 3.23-37). In other words, it would not have been presumptuous for Jude to claim that 1 Enoch addressed the concerns of the Christians to whom he wrote. The generation of Jesus Christ had not yet passed away.
From a preterist perspective, 1 Enoch adds considerable weight to the many passages in the New Testament which clearly indicate that the consummation of the age together with Christ?s second coming took place in A.D. 70 (in the destruction of Jerusalem). This being the case, it should not surprise us to learn that 1 Enoch was banned by Hilary, Jerome, and Augustine and was subsequently lost to Western Christendom for over a thousand years. In short, it was suppressed. Why? Because it could not be made to fit their idea that Christ?s coming had not yet been fulfilled. 1 Enoch?s ?seventy generations? was too problematic. It could not be made to stretch beyond the First Century. Copies of 1 Enoch soon disappeared, and were it not for the fact that a number of copies have since been discovered and translated, we would have no knowledge of 1 Enoch outside of the references made to it in the Book of Jubilees, the Testament of the Twelve Patriarchs, and in the writings of the Apostolic Fathers (many of whom regarded 1 Enoch as Scripture: i.e. Barnabas, Athenagoras, Clement of Alexandria, Irenaeus, and Tertullian).
That Jude regarded 1 Enoch as Scripture can hardly be doubted, not simply because he quotes from it, but also because he makes no distinction between 1 Enoch and other Scriptures. ?Now I desire to put you in remembrance,? Jude writes, after which he alludes to two events recorded in the Old Testament and one recorded in 1 Enoch:
...the Lord, having saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. And angels that kept not their own principality, but left their proper habitation, he hath kept in everlasting bonds under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them...in like manner...are set forth as examples.... (Jude 5-7)
That Jude would tell his Christian readers to remember something recorded in 1 Enoch is significant. First of all, it indicates that Christians were familiar with 1 Enoch; second, it shows that Christians regarded the contents of 1 Enoch as historically reliable. In other words, it cannot be consistently maintained that Jude?s believing 1 Enoch to be authoritative was an isolated case among the first century Christians.
http://www.jud.state.ct.us/external/supapp/cases/aroap/ap78/78ap517.pdf
state of connecticut.
superior court
Sf,
I can only guess that she was reinstated, about 5 years ago, my contact inside the org are very spotty since I'm an apostate.
http://www.jud.state.ct.us/external/supapp/cases/aroap/ap78/78ap517.pdf
state of connecticut.
superior court
Sf,
sorry for the double post
http://www.jud.state.ct.us/external/supapp/cases/aroap/ap78/78ap517.pdf
state of connecticut.
superior court
Thanks Sf,