I was only speaking about what Judaism has to say about itself. I personally have no investment or interest.
Hey David,
I genuinely find it interesting how religions tell stories about their origins. The rabbinic traditions of Judaism, and the interpretation built up on that, are fascinating. But they are a few centuries of development and interpretation away from the basic texts. It shouldn't surprise us that there was a time where JWs were taught that God had a physical location at which he could be invisibly found (the Pleiades according to the WT), because that's a pretty simple step to take if you're reading bronze age texts literally. At one time the Jews also placed God in a physical space they could point to in the sky. God changing the weather to make sure that your new bible version is printed on time? One could only make it more bronze age if one were talking about one's crops.
JW theology is missing some 1800 years of christian theological discussion and some 600 years of Jewish which led into christianity. If it seems overly similar with bronze age conceptions of god and heaven and cosmic forces, then that's the point. It's a religion stripped of subtlety and nuance in such ideas. God is in an invisible heaven with a court of angels because that's what the OT says. And the OT says that because 3000 years ago that's how God was imagined. Satan has to be a divine actor for the same reasons Satan became a divine actor in the first place - God's a bit too much of an unstable tyrant without evil sub-let to another being. A bronze age patriarchal 'theocratic' arrangement has many issues which most other religions are slowly questioning, but JWs are keen to try and push it as acceptable. etc etc. In fact, one of the few things JWs don't do which would be typical of bronze age religion is ritual blood magic. And I'm not sure I can even say they don't do that...
For anyone interested in origins of Judaism and links to Canaanite religion, Noll wrote an overview/101 article on the subject which is well sourced. Obviously believers and the pious will find much to object to within it but it's very mainstream for secular teaching: http://people.brandonu.ca/nollk/canaanite-religion/
Mephis
JoinedPosts by Mephis
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17
God & universe #1 - God's position and authority
by Anders Andersen inwhile thinking about the nature of god, i suddenly thought of something else: how jw speak about god in relation to the universe.. they say that.
jehovah created the universe.
destroying satan and answering the questions that were raised in eden will restore peace and unity in the whole universe.. .
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Mephis
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Leaked Elder's Video: How to deal with a suicidal sister
by cappytan inthis video will be played at one of the clam meetings in march 2016.. the content is kind of old news because it is a recut version of a previous video produced for the elder's school.
however, it's still significant because it shows that the organization still has dissenting brothers in positions of leadership.. my thanks to the leaker.
feel free to claim credit here.
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Mephis
It's the elders school video from a few years back, yeah. I remember watching it and thinking that at no point do they suggest getting some professional help for a lady who's expressing suicidal thoughts. So how are people who see this at the CLAM going to feel when chanting Psalms doesn't cure their serious depression? Stupid religion.
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Why was it so hard for Jesus to convince the Jews that he was the Messiah???
by James Mixon in??????
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Mephis
Livius has some useful articles with the secular histories and dates etc. The articles are written by a Dutch history teacher with a love for the ancient world. May be of interest to those who've not looked at Josephus and other sources before.
http://www.livius.org/men-mh/messiah/messiah00.html#overview
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Why was it so hard for Jesus to convince the Jews that he was the Messiah???
by James Mixon in??????
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Mephis
The interesting thing about it all is how the idea of Messiah doesn't seem to be claimed directly. Rather they try to do things which incite others to give them the 'title'. So Jesus' is ambivalent about claiming the title, according to the writings of his followers much later on. And other claimants are only loosely Messiahs because they're described elsewhere as doing what seems to be the Messianic career path - step one of which involves going into the desert like Moses. Leader/prophet ideals being fulfilled with that. -
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Why was it so hard for Jesus to convince the Jews that he was the Messiah???
by James Mixon in??????
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Mephis
Four types of Messiah, and Jesus only really fits the 'wise man' type. He's kind of a 'prophet', but not hugely so. He's not really a high priest type, although he does cleanse the temple so that may be an attempt to tick that box. But he wants nothing to do with all the military expectations of a Messiah - the leading of the Jewish nation to independence.
Still a very odd thing for everyone to be so chilled about the guy who makes dead people alive again. You'd think that would get some attention. But obviously not. Curious.
There were a few Jews who claimed to be a Messiah James. Theudas is a good example. Both in what a Messiah would claim and what happened when the Roman military caught up with them.
"It came to pass, while Cuspius Fadus was procurator of Judea, that a certain charlatan, whose name was Theudas, persuaded a great part of the people to take their effects with them, and follow him to the Jordan river; for he told them he was a prophet, and that he would, by his own command, divide the river, and afford them an easy passage over it. Many were deluded by his words. However, Fadus did not permit them to make any advantage of his wild attempt, but sent a troop of horsemen out against them. After falling upon them unexpectedly, they slew many of them, and took many of them alive. They also took Theudas alive, cut off his head, and carried it to Jerusalem. " - Josephus, Antiquities. 20:97-99
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What were Satan and his demons "doing" up in heaven, before being "cast down" in 1914?
by Dunedain ini was just thinking about how the wts has been spouting off for years that satan and his demons were cast down to the vicinity of the earth in 1914, but really, when you think about it, what was the difference before 1914 or after 1914?.
its not like satan and his demons did not have access to the earth.
satan and his demons always were messing with earth.
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Mephis
Being bitten by a radioactive spider to get Spider powers, that I can understand. An eternal superbeing of infinite power needing to be crucified by the Romans before he can do anything? Not so much.
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God & universe #1 - God's position and authority
by Anders Andersen inwhile thinking about the nature of god, i suddenly thought of something else: how jw speak about god in relation to the universe.. they say that.
jehovah created the universe.
destroying satan and answering the questions that were raised in eden will restore peace and unity in the whole universe.. .
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Mephis
David,
thank you for explaining how you believe modern Judaism interprets their ancient texts. It's a curious tension between the interpretation built up and the origins in Caananite religion, isn't it?
I of course was not talking of modern Judaism when setting out texts with their origins 2600 years ago. The two things are very different. One really shouldn't think disagreement with one's own beliefs means something comes from the WT. There is an extensive corpus of literature investigating the origins of YHWH (and indeed Satan) which isn't by either Jews or JWs. If you want to play along - what is the difference between Ba'al and YHWH in the Old Testament as the text is written?
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God & universe #1 - God's position and authority
by Anders Andersen inwhile thinking about the nature of god, i suddenly thought of something else: how jw speak about god in relation to the universe.. they say that.
jehovah created the universe.
destroying satan and answering the questions that were raised in eden will restore peace and unity in the whole universe.. .
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Mephis
Their belief system is absolutely in line with Jewish cosmology c.600 BCE. One has to selectively quote to get those ideas to fit into a heliocentric solar system, so forming an explanation for the potential of other universes is really well beyond the pay grade of WBTS theology.
The focus of Judaism back then was on their God doing things on Earth. Busy God smiting foes, rewarding worshippers, listening to prayers, interacting with other Gods etc etc. His whole attention is centred on Earth. Even when not doing anything, he's chilling out in heaven with his angels, waiting for Satan to pop by and make a bet about an Earthling. It's God as Heavenly King, doing most of the things which Earthly Kings do. The Jewish God isn't so different to any others from that time. One Jewish group even have him popping down to earth to get a woman pregnant. Just the one is quite restrained by God standards to be fair. Zeus couldn't keep his pants on. But there's no conception of there being anything other than Earth and an invisible place God (and other spirity critters) lives in. The JWs have taken that idea and ran with it, which creates the obvious problems 2600 years later.
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" Truth is the Most Beautiful Thing " ..... debate.
by Phizzy in"truth is the most beautiful thing" is a quote from andrea camilleri, author of the montalbano novels among many other writings.. what do you think about that statement ?.
is there anything more beautiful ?
or do other things top it, or come further down the list of beautiful things ?.
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Mephis
It reminds me of the ending to Keats' Ode to a Grecian Urn. Not sure I agree. Beauty is subjective, highly subjective. Truth can be (the old joke "there's my side, there's your side, and then there's the truth"), but there is also objective truth. 2 + 2 = 4. Like sparrowdown says, whether I like it or not, it's always going to add up to 4. And some truths really aren't all that pleasant to have to accept and face. -
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Evolution is a Fact #17 - Belyaev's Silver Foxes
by cofty inin stalin's ussr the science of genetics was deemed "reactionary and decadent".
scientists were sent to the gulags or simply disappeared.
dmitri konstantinovich belyaev lost his job at the at the central research laboratory of fur breeding in moscow because of his commitment to classical genetics.
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Mephis
Imagining the crazy world of resurrecting that species somehow , I think a certain amount of natural selection tends to weed out the human gene pool when it comes to trying to domesticate animals which view humans as dinner...