Posts by Mephis

17

God & universe #1 - God's position and authority

by Anders Andersen in

while thinking about the nature of god, i suddenly thought of something else: how jw speak about god in relation to the universe.. they say that.

jehovah created the universe.

destroying satan and answering the questions that were raised in eden will restore peace and unity in the whole universe.. .

Mephis

Yeah, it's a good 101 essay introducing where scholarship and archaeology are broadly at. Would obviously be wrong not to mention that fundies of both Christian and Jewish varieties disagree with the interpretation set out there. But then they would, wouldn't they? ;) The human sacrifice aspect seems to crop up elsewhere in the OT, although one is never sure whether it's meant metaphorically or literally - possibly due to the efforts of later scribes wanting to create an artificial distinction.

Linking back to your OP though, that's the bedrock on which JWs are building their view of YHWH. It's literal in a nonsensical fashion. Judaism has built up shades of nuance and meaning to explain it away. Christianity (mainly) handwaves it away by focus on the NT. But JWs are having a full bronze age carnival of stupid, and a lot of the silliness in their doctrine stems from trying to make sense of things which only ever made sense in the bronze age and very early iron age. I'm of an age to remember specific illnesses (eg mental health issues) being linked to just how much you were praying. Satan will get you if you don't keep up your rituals of meeting attendance, study and prayer. etc etc.

Hope that's not too much of a tangent. But that's how I see JWs and how they frame a belief in God etc.

70

When is a theory 'just a theory'?

by HB in

the titles of cofty's excellent recent posts are all preceeded by the words "evolution is a fact...".

richard dawkins is encouraging people to use the term 'fact' in relation to evolution, especially when debating with creationists as the word 'theory' is confusing to many, and the latter often takes the discussion off on an often unproductive tangent.

the following may be of interest, it's from the bbc website - part of a regular series of articles called 'the vocabularist', discussing the origin and meaning of words: .

Mephis

In using definitions, Phizzy's from the National Academy of Sciences are very useful because words sometimes have very specific contextual meanings. Theory in science is one of those times.

I've yet to see anyone dismiss fears about nuclear power or weapons with the reassuring "all that atomic stuff - it's only a theory". No-one seriously rejects the theory of gravity any more (I suppose those who did reject it are long since weeded from the gene pool...). But then neither of those challenge religious beliefs, and the word 'theory' does have the unfortunate ability to be the same one we use for Cousin Bob's ideas about who really was on the grassy knoll.

17

God & universe #1 - God's position and authority

by Anders Andersen in

while thinking about the nature of god, i suddenly thought of something else: how jw speak about god in relation to the universe.. they say that.

jehovah created the universe.

destroying satan and answering the questions that were raised in eden will restore peace and unity in the whole universe.. .

Mephis

David,

Brilliant that this is not new stuff for you and you got to do it in primary school. Most of us get to do it at university sadly. Big words and things. Although if you think knowing Passover is Pre-Exodus is what it's about, you know a lot less than you think... need to locate an Exodus to have a pre-Exodus. As I said, stories religions tell about their origins. May not find too much of it in the Catholic bibles of the mid-70s though. Perhaps you meant peer reviewed journals of the mid-70s instead? Which you were reading in elementary school, natch.

Would you mind stopping confusing rabbinic Judaism and your understanding (?) of that with the bronze age fudge JWs take their theology from then, as you are ever so educated on this subject? I'm surprised you're confusing the two and it needs to be pointed out to you from how you try to boost yourself :)

.

108

Leaked Elder's Video: How to deal with a suicidal sister

by cappytan in

this video will be played at one of the clam meetings in march 2016.. the content is kind of old news because it is a recut version of a previous video produced for the elder's school.

however, it's still significant because it shows that the organization still has dissenting brothers in positions of leadership.. my thanks to the leaker.

feel free to claim credit here.

Mephis

It's genuine Joe. They used it to train elders in how to interact with people with depression.

They do have better articles dealing with depression and mental health issues (July 2009 Awake I think?) but that video is one of the more typical brainless ones where they go back to the normal line of 'read the bible more, pray more, do more for Jehovah - you're still depressed because you're not doing enough'.

17

God & universe #1 - God's position and authority

by Anders Andersen in

while thinking about the nature of god, i suddenly thought of something else: how jw speak about god in relation to the universe.. they say that.

jehovah created the universe.

destroying satan and answering the questions that were raised in eden will restore peace and unity in the whole universe.. .

Mephis

I was only speaking about what Judaism has to say about itself. I personally have no investment or interest.
Hey David,
I genuinely find it interesting how religions tell stories about their origins. The rabbinic traditions of Judaism, and the interpretation built up on that, are fascinating. But they are a few centuries of development and interpretation away from the basic texts. It shouldn't surprise us that there was a time where JWs were taught that God had a physical location at which he could be invisibly found (the Pleiades according to the WT), because that's a pretty simple step to take if you're reading bronze age texts literally. At one time the Jews also placed God in a physical space they could point to in the sky. God changing the weather to make sure that your new bible version is printed on time? One could only make it more bronze age if one were talking about one's crops.
JW theology is missing some 1800 years of christian theological discussion and some 600 years of Jewish which led into christianity. If it seems overly similar with bronze age conceptions of god and heaven and cosmic forces, then that's the point. It's a religion stripped of subtlety and nuance in such ideas. God is in an invisible heaven with a court of angels because that's what the OT says. And the OT says that because 3000 years ago that's how God was imagined. Satan has to be a divine actor for the same reasons Satan became a divine actor in the first place - God's a bit too much of an unstable tyrant without evil sub-let to another being. A bronze age patriarchal 'theocratic' arrangement has many issues which most other religions are slowly questioning, but JWs are keen to try and push it as acceptable. etc etc. In fact, one of the few things JWs don't do which would be typical of bronze age religion is ritual blood magic. And I'm not sure I can even say they don't do that...
For anyone interested in origins of Judaism and links to Canaanite religion, Noll wrote an overview/101 article on the subject which is well sourced. Obviously believers and the pious will find much to object to within it but it's very mainstream for secular teaching: http://people.brandonu.ca/nollk/canaanite-religion/

108

Leaked Elder's Video: How to deal with a suicidal sister

by cappytan in

this video will be played at one of the clam meetings in march 2016.. the content is kind of old news because it is a recut version of a previous video produced for the elder's school.

however, it's still significant because it shows that the organization still has dissenting brothers in positions of leadership.. my thanks to the leaker.

feel free to claim credit here.

Mephis

It's the elders school video from a few years back, yeah. I remember watching it and thinking that at no point do they suggest getting some professional help for a lady who's expressing suicidal thoughts. So how are people who see this at the CLAM going to feel when chanting Psalms doesn't cure their serious depression? Stupid religion.

38

Why was it so hard for Jesus to convince the Jews that he was the Messiah???

by James Mixon in

??????

?

Mephis

Livius has some useful articles with the secular histories and dates etc. The articles are written by a Dutch history teacher with a love for the ancient world. May be of interest to those who've not looked at Josephus and other sources before.

http://www.livius.org/men-mh/messiah/messiah00.html#overview

38

Why was it so hard for Jesus to convince the Jews that he was the Messiah???

by James Mixon in

??????

?

Mephis

The interesting thing about it all is how the idea of Messiah doesn't seem to be claimed directly. Rather they try to do things which incite others to give them the 'title'. So Jesus' is ambivalent about claiming the title, according to the writings of his followers much later on. And other claimants are only loosely Messiahs because they're described elsewhere as doing what seems to be the Messianic career path - step one of which involves going into the desert like Moses. Leader/prophet ideals being fulfilled with that.

38

Why was it so hard for Jesus to convince the Jews that he was the Messiah???

by James Mixon in

??????

?

Mephis

Four types of Messiah, and Jesus only really fits the 'wise man' type. He's kind of a 'prophet', but not hugely so. He's not really a high priest type, although he does cleanse the temple so that may be an attempt to tick that box. But he wants nothing to do with all the military expectations of a Messiah - the leading of the Jewish nation to independence.

Still a very odd thing for everyone to be so chilled about the guy who makes dead people alive again. You'd think that would get some attention. But obviously not. Curious.

There were a few Jews who claimed to be a Messiah James. Theudas is a good example. Both in what a Messiah would claim and what happened when the Roman military caught up with them.

"It came to pass, while Cuspius Fadus was procurator of Judea, that a certain charlatan, whose name was Theudas, persuaded a great part of the people to take their effects with them, and follow him to the Jordan river; for he told them he was a prophet, and that he would, by his own command, divide the river, and afford them an easy passage over it. Many were deluded by his words. However, Fadus did not permit them to make any advantage of his wild attempt, but sent a troop of horsemen out against them. After falling upon them unexpectedly, they slew many of them, and took many of them alive. They also took Theudas alive, cut off his head, and carried it to Jerusalem. " - Josephus, Antiquities. 20:97-99

63

What were Satan and his demons "doing" up in heaven, before being "cast down" in 1914?

by Dunedain in

i was just thinking about how the wts has been spouting off for years that satan and his demons were cast down to the vicinity of the earth in 1914, but really, when you think about it, what was the difference before 1914 or after 1914?.

its not like satan and his demons did not have access to the earth.

satan and his demons always were messing with earth.

Mephis

Being bitten by a radioactive spider to get Spider powers, that I can understand. An eternal superbeing of infinite power needing to be crucified by the Romans before he can do anything? Not so much.