Posts by truthwillsetyoufree

36

Anybody here still believe in the bible?

by Mel Morris in

jw
friends

i'm a current bible student of jw's looking to chat with someone about biblical doctrine.

i'm not interested in talking with an apostate or a fader, i'm just a person looking for answers and wondered if there are any neutral voices in this forum who have good insights into the bible.

i currently talk with a couple of jw's on a personal level from my congregation and they are knowledgeable to a certain extent, but i dare not ask them certain questions because, as you know, the congregation has a culture of fear that impacts trust and openness, especially concerning biblical doctrine or the societies teachings.

truthwillsetyoufree

Hi Mel, I would love the opportunity to discuss bible teachings and doctrine with you. Please private message me with any questions you have

J

15

An honest look at the situation

by Formerbrother in

i was brought up in the truth.

i saw a lot unchristian things going on in my local body of elders, my dad was an elder and waiting outside elders meetings to go home with my mum and other wives, we sometimes heard raised voices in the 2nd school.

the other mums would raise their voices as well thinking of something to say to hide the elders 'private' arguments.. my dad hated it all, i think he hated having to keep things secret from my mum and me.. anyway, i got baptised, and as we did back then didnt think about further education but instead pioneered.

truthwillsetyoufree

I discovered TTATT 8 years ago. I was raised a JW, couldn’t wait to leave school to begin pioneering, rejected all forms of higher education and trusted in JW. I started window cleaning. 😂 I pioneered and the truth was my life. I through myself into the Polish field and supported 3 polish groups as well as my English congregation. I was heavily involved and well known as a witness. Had a couple of doubts. Read crisis of conscience and soon stopped my association with the religion. It’s been 8 years and I’m still a window cleaner! I have a thriving round, good reputation. I love being my own boss even if it is only cleaning dirty windows. I’ve even bought a house now and I still get plenty of time to myself which I wouldn’t get if I was employed. I am also enrolled with th open university and slowly getting a degree as a back up in case anything should happen but I have no desire to give up window cleaning. It was one of the best things I did starting a round and I will keep at it. There may not be any benefits and pension being self employed or sick and holiday pay but if you run it as a proper business and put some money aside to cover such things then you are on to a good thing. 👍

9

New light

by poopie in

jw
friends

june watchtower on greeting are they now trying stealthily to change shunning..

truthwillsetyoufree

I a.m. under the inpression (my opinion) that the society has come under a spot of fire regarding shunning, and having looked at some YouTube clips with regard to recent court cases shunning has definitely been brought up. It is interesting to note that there is even an article on the Jw.org website regarding whether or not Jws practice shunning. This is a very controversial subject to bring up especially when the organisation actively encourages the public to go on to JW.org. It’s surprising to see that the society would bring it to the publics attention. That is until you read the stupid article! And then you realise what the crafty org. is trying to do! They make out, online, that the organisation does not shun members who “fall away”. But seek to encourage them to return. Try don’t say ‘no’ or ‘yes’ to the answer. We all know that an honest answer here would be “yes we do practise shunning”. But of course that would make the organisation look bad. So they sidestep the question by focusing on, not on disfellowshipped personwho are indeed shunned, but on those who have simply ‘fallen away’ those who have stopped going to the meetings and engaging in the ministry, such ones who have not been disfellowshipped. Instead of actually answering the question directly they focus on a a certain group of people in order to answer the question. The answer of course is ‘no, we don’t shun these people’. But it’s no different from saying “well, if a person skips a meeting we don’t shun him” or “if a member forgets to bring his bible to the meeting we don’t shun him.” The question is do the witness practise shunning. The answer is yes! But the watchtower has once again skirted the question and attempts to mislead the audience into thinking that shunning is in fact not practised for JW.orh says so. This is simply done to make the organisation look more attractive that it actually is and will only reveal the truth when the individual has already studied the book “what does the bible really teach” and moved into the Gods love book, by which the individual would have become acquainted with many friendly witnesses even becoming friends, no doubt beginning to attend meetings and already transitioning to a JW lifestyle. At this point they are primed to accept harder to swallow teachings such as ‘witnesses shun those who are disfellowshipped’.

Imagine if the person was given that detail before they chose to study! My mother cofessed to me (she is still a JW) that had she realised what the teaching of shunning was all about then she never would have joined!

How does my rambling on concern the June watchtower and this thought that the society may change is shunning stance? Simply this: the organisation will never change its stance on the shunning principle. Just like the two witness rule the shunning teaching has received media attention and continues to do so in many western countries. It’s being featured on television, YouTube clips, newspapers and of course all over the internet. The two witness rule which many of us hoped would change due to all the bad publicity that teaching has had recently had the opposite affect on the governing body than we had hoped. Instead of modifying it the governing body hardened their hearts and released articles and even videos I b JW.org reaffirming, stomping their feet almost, that the two witness rule will not be changed.

Any article and video brought out now regarding the shunning policy will have the same thing happen. It may present the teaching has having been changed and presented in a favourable light. But this will have nothing to do with disfellowshipped ones - they remain firmly shunned. Any article will serve as a teaching tool to help the faithful be able to better express to the public that the shunning teaching doesn’t happen - we all know, and my dad is the perfect example, that whatever the watchtower says is parroted by deluded jws. Present the shunning teaching in a way that looks like the witness don’t shun to the average ‘borgbot’ and they will repeat it verbatim to the public. You’ll have witnesses saying we don’t shun anyone whilst still shunning people and not even realising the contradiction.

Thise of you who have read this far I offer my apologise. I am completely unable, like the watchtower, to answer a question directly, succinctly and straight to the point. Like the watchtower I go over every angle, examine all the detail and write for the sake of writing.

Even now offering this apology I am rambling.

If I had gone to bethel I would like to believe that I would have been sent straight to the writing department.

6

Anyone at dudley this weekend

by Deltawave in

i attended the assembly programming at dudley yesterday (saturday) and it was so boring.. only 5 baptisms i think.

during the baptism talk an 11 year old girl was interviewed who has already been baptised a year!

(disgraceful).

truthwillsetyoufree

Dudley in the West Midlands UK was my go to assembly hall. Needless to say I haven’t been there for some 7 years. 😝

But I will say this, it’s a beautiful assembly hall! I always did enjoy going there. I remember when it was a really run down place before it was refurbished. The transformation was breathtaking.

It was also here that I received the push to leave the religion. Oh brother Algarve! (District overseer at the time - remember those? 😜) He gave an example of the dangers of the internet with all the apostate material there is. A missionary couple returned to England in order to care for an elderly relative. They were given an assignment - they were head of the entire foreign language field for Britain. They were a super duper spiritual couple. At some point though they went on the internet and researched Jehovah’s witnesses (no reason as to why they should do this) and only after a few days of reading and researching they handed in their notice of disassociation. Brother Algarve shrugged sombrely and uttered “such are the dangers of the internet”. Whilst most people in the audience nodded their heads in agreement with staying away from the internet to research Jehovah’s witnesses, for me I couldn’t help but think “what on Earth is on the internet that would cause such a spiritual couple, who have devoted and sarcificed years of their lives to the organisation to only go and throw it all away after just a few days?”

So I went and looked for myself. Dudley assembly hall brought me into the organzation (I was baptised there at 15 on a most joyous day) and it also gave me what I needed to leave.

Thank you Dudley assembly hall for being a part of my life.

😊😊😊

1

Child sex abuse Stratford upon Avon UK

by truthwillsetyoufree in

this appeared in the local paper 'stratford herald' october 2015. the guy was supported by his congregation and he has now been released from prison and is once again part of the same congregation.

allen (43) of evesham road, dodwell, stratford, was jailed for two years and eight months and ordered to register as a sex offender for life after he pleaded guilty to two charges of sexual activity with a child.. prosecutor andrew wallace said jehovah’s witness allen had met the girl in the mid-2000s through the church.. the girl, now a young woman in her 20s, said she began to fancy allen, who had started to pay her compliments.. then on one occasion when he gave her a lift, despite being fully aware she was only 15, allen put his hand down her trousers and penetrated her with his fingers.. she did not object or tell anyone what had happened, and there were further consensual incidents between them, including various types of sexual activity but not full intercourse.. someone who suspected what was going on between allen, a family man in his 30s, and the girl said something to her mother.. but when she challenged both her daughter and allen about what she had heard, they both denied it.. things stopped after the girl began to feel guilty about what was happening, and she eventually decided to come forward last year and contacted the police.. she said she had been dramatically affected by what had gone on, and that what happened with allen caused her to suffer a breakdown and still haunts her.. when allen was questioned by the police he accepted the incidents had taken place, but claimed it was the girl who had taken the lead, added mr wallace.. elizabeth power, defending, said allen, who has a son and a daughter who are now both in their 20s, had attended for a voluntary interview with the police and made admissions.. “he did not force himself on her; but he was the adult and she was a child.

he says he was weak and was attracted to her.

truthwillsetyoufree

This appeared in the local paper 'Stratford Herald' October 2015. The guy was supported by his congregation and he has now been released from prison and is once again part of the same congregation.

Allen (43) of Evesham Road, Dodwell, Stratford, was jailed for two years and eight months and ordered to register as a sex offender for life after he pleaded guilty to two charges of sexual activity with a child.

Prosecutor Andrew Wallace said Jehovah’s Witness Allen had met the girl in the mid-2000s through the church.

The girl, now a young woman in her 20s, said she began to fancy Allen, who had started to pay her compliments.

Then on one occasion when he gave her a lift, despite being fully aware she was only 15, Allen put his hand down her trousers and penetrated her with his fingers.

She did not object or tell anyone what had happened, and there were further consensual incidents between them, including various types of sexual activity but not full intercourse.

Someone who suspected what was going on between Allen, a family man in his 30s, and the girl said something to her mother.

But when she challenged both her daughter and Allen about what she had heard, they both denied it.

Things stopped after the girl began to feel guilty about what was happening, and she eventually decided to come forward last year and contacted the police.

She said she had been dramatically affected by what had gone on, and that what happened with Allen caused her to suffer a breakdown and still haunts her.

When Allen was questioned by the police he accepted the incidents had taken place, but claimed it was the girl who had taken the lead, added Mr Wallace.

Elizabeth Power, defending, said Allen, who has a son and a daughter who are now both in their 20s, had attended for a voluntary interview with the police and made admissions.

“He did not force himself on her; but he was the adult and she was a child. He says he was weak and was attracted to her. He has had the last seven or eight years struggling with those demons.

“He is thought well of in the church, and all the congregation now seem to be aware of this.”

Miss Power said Allen, who has a number of debts, runs his own building business and is the main provider for his family.

“Clearly this is an offence where, after a trial, a sentence of around five years would follow.

“But in the circumstances, if Your Honour could draw back from an immediate custodial sentence, a two-year suspended sentence of imprisonment would be suitable.

“A sex offender group work programme would not be available under the auspices of a suspended sentence but there is a sexual offenders’ behaviour course which could be done on a one-to-one basis.

“Unlike a number of people who are in denial, he accepts he has done something wrong and wants to change.”

But jailing Allen, Judge Sylvia de Bertodano told him: “I quite accept that whatever happened, she was a willing participant in it; but you took advantage of the fact that she was 20 years younger than you, and a child.

“Children who are under 16 are protected by law for a very good reason, because no matter what they think, they are not old enough to make choices about sexual relationships. The psychological damage she has suffered is an illustration of this.

“You are the father of a girl who was not much younger than her at the time. You would have been absolutely horrified if someone of your age had been touching your daughter in the way you had been touching her.

“This has effectively ruined your reputation. You are lucky your wife is standing by you, and you are a member of a church which is supportive of you as well.

“But the message has to go out that if men in their mid-30s repeatedly engage in sexual activity with under-age children, they will go to prison.”

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14

Individual Duds absolutely cannot learn the "truth" on their own"???

by James Mixon in

why is it that i understand the bible more clearly today then all my years in the organization (jw)???

?many religious people believe the average person cannot understand the bible..maybe the reasons (1) they may have tried to study the bible and found it difficult, so they gave up.

(2) maybe they believe truth is subjective;so whatever you believe,that is truth for you.

truthwillsetyoufree

Because that doesn't at all contradict and destroy the very foundation of the organisation! So I guess it was wrong for Charles taze Russel to set himself apart from the religions of his time and start his own religion based upon his own understanding of the scriptures? There weren't seven men grouped together deciding what to believe in - Russel did that on his own and preached and toured round America - he was pastor Russell, not pastor Russell and pastor so-and-so and pastor so-and-so..... it was just the one guy with his own understanding and interpretation of scripture which without that would never had led to the jehovahs witnesses being formed. So where does that leave Charles taze Russell if you can't learn the truth on your own and need an organisation to teach you? I suppose based upon this teaching by the society they themselves would have to accept that Charles Russell couldn't possibly have learnt the truth about God on his own. And as there was no true organisation he couldn't have been taught it. So Charles Russell's religion is a sham and can't be true. And the same has to be said for Rutherford too.

Talk about shooting yourself in your own foot.

50

Why Finding the One True Religion is Impossible

by Simon in

jws like to think they have found the one true religion.

but like so many other religious people, it's usually the religion they were born into, the only religion they know because it's the first one they found or, at the most, one of two or three (typically the second one after they left their first / born-in faith).. the trouble is, there simply isn't enough time to explore and investigate each and everyone of the many thousands of belief systems, religions and sects around the world.. think of it this way: which is the best neighbourhood to live in where you would be most happy and most successful?

not just in the city or even the country you are in, but the entire world.. how would you ever know?

truthwillsetyoufree

Brilliant point made. I will be using this analogy.

2

Early Bible Translations

by TheWonderofYou in

this is a story about the bishop of hippo, a scholarly man.

augustine.

we saw him in the hollywood film.. was he a scholarly man?

truthwillsetyoufree

That was an interesting read. I will try and find the film at some point.

8

The book of Jeremiah

by truthwillsetyoufree in

it occurred to me the other day that i don't actually know all that much about the bible.

dont get me wrong, i was a very dedicated and studious jehovah's witness and i studied the bible every day - or so i thought.

i have now realised that during the time i spent in that religion i didn't study the bible - i studied jehovah's witness theology.

truthwillsetyoufree

That's great Cobweb, I will be sure to check it out.

8

The book of Jeremiah

by truthwillsetyoufree in

it occurred to me the other day that i don't actually know all that much about the bible.

dont get me wrong, i was a very dedicated and studious jehovah's witness and i studied the bible every day - or so i thought.

i have now realised that during the time i spent in that religion i didn't study the bible - i studied jehovah's witness theology.

truthwillsetyoufree

It occurred to me the other day that I don't actually know all that much about the bible.

Dont get me wrong, I was a very dedicated and studious Jehovah's Witness and I studied the bible every day - or so I thought. I have now realised that during the time I spent in that religion I didn't study the bible - I studied Jehovah's Witness theology. I saw the bible and religious history through the preconceived ideas of this organisation. If someone was to ask me to explain one by one the teachings of Jehovahs witnesses with biblical support I could easily do it, quoting multitudes of verses. But if someone was to ask me about what a certain book of the bible teaches, the time period it was written in, the people who it was given to, the themes contained within, etc I wouldn't stand a chance.

This brings me to my subject title - the book of Jeremiah. I have no idea about what this book is about. I never used it on the platform or in my preaching, can hardly ever remembering it being used at the meetings, and so decided last night, that now I am free of watchtower clutches, to read it and see what it says fro myself.

So how would I summarise the book of Jeremiah?

It is a long, long, long, boring book, filled with nothing but Gods judgement and denunciations against Israel and Judah, and all the nations from Babylon to Egypt. That is all there is in Jeremiah. Gods anger against the people of the land.

Now I used to believe that the bible essentially came from God. When I went on field service I used to say to people that if you believe it's the word of God why would you not want to read it? This has come from the God who made the whole universe, you should be enthralled by it. Not only that by if God gave me a book he had wrote I would expect to read some amazing things.

What a disappointment the book of Jeremiah proved to be in that regard. 52 chapters of God saying he wants to destroy everyone. I had to pinch myself so many times to keep myself awake. Has this really come from God? Is this really what he wanted to include in the bible for my instruction? Did this fill me with awe and wonderment about my great God?

I'm getting off the point. I wanted to share with you guys the highlights of Jeremiah that I found of interest to me. There is not many. As I said, the whole book is God telling Jeremiah to tell all Israel, Judah and surrounding nations they will be destroyed. That really is it. No joke. But here are my highlights.

Jeremiah 8:8. "How can you say we have the law of Jehovah? For in fact the lying stylus of the scribes have been used only for falsehoods." How interesting to note here that in Jeremiah's day the law of Jehovah had been falsified so much. How long had this been going on for? Can we really trust the law of Jehovah that we have received today as recorded I'm the bible when the falsifying of the law of Jehovah seemed common place?

Jeremiah 10:12. This verse describes God creating the earth and heavens. Of course no mention of Jesus being used to create it. This is a thought becoming more apparent to me. Jesus was there fit at the beginning. According to JW belief God created Jesus first and spent years together before creating anything else. Then God uses Jesus to create everything in the heavens and in the earth. we were always given the impression of just how important Jesus was, before his death and after it. Yet the Old Testament and the Israelite religion is completely silent on the matter of Jesus. Even the Angel Gabriel is more well known than gods first creation, his son, Jesus.

Jeremiah 10:23-25 Jeremiah here pleads with God not to destroy his people. It reminded me of Abraham pleading with God not to destroy sodom and Gomorrah I find it amazing how imperfect humans have to plead with God for him to to show love and mercy. An imperfect man like Jeremiah showed more compassion and love than did God despite his very being being love as taught in the gospel of John - God is love. Would you not expect a God of love who is perfect to plead the case for love and compassion to an imperfect human who wants people destroyed instead of the other way around? In fact, God actually tells Jeremiah in chapter 7:16 to not "pray for them, do not offer s prayer or plead with me in their behalf." What a far cry this is from turn the othe cheek and to love your enemies and to pray for those persecuting you. What a difference we have here. In fact, later on in chapter 11 verse 20, after Jeremiah received some persecution he know agrees with jeovah to destroy the lot of them! Is this really the message God wants me to adopt? Is this really what he want to teach me?

Jeremiah 13:14 - "I will smash them against each other, fathers and sons alike." By this point after reading 13 chapters of how God is going to kil everyone you become numb to it. God is vengeful, I get it. He wants to Destroy everyone, I get it. But it's the language that God uses. In this case he says he will smash family members against each other. Is it not enough to say I will destroy you all if you don't repent? But describing exactly how you will do it to fine detail, doesn't this show someone who loves violence? Who seems to take delight in thinking and devising ways to punish his people? A God of love?

Jeremiah 26:20-23. poor Urijah. He, like Jeremiah was a prophet from God preaching gods judgment. This message of judgment and destruction was not easy. But God assured Jeremiah that he would come to no harm. But what about Urijah? Because of his judgment message the people had him killed. Where was God? That man never expected to be a prophet. But God chose him like he chose Jeremiah. But God promised Jeremiah he would be kept safe. Why didn't God keep Urijah safe? Can he only keep one person safe at any one time? Maybe Jeremiah was to busy getting into trouble that Urijah went ignored? You would expect at the very least if God chose you to prophecy a judgment message that you would be kept safe, especially when he keeps other people safe. What did Jeremiah have that Urijah didn't have? Why the inequality? The message I got from this was don't accept an assignment from God unless he promises you assurance that he will keep you safe.

Jeremiah 14:13-16. Prophets. There were two types. The ones sent from God, like Jeremiah, true prophets, and the false prophets. The one is preaching judgment and destruction. The other is teaching peace and security. Both claim to be from the true God. Now, imagine for the moment you are an Israelite. A prophet comes up to you. He says he is from the true God and that you have sinned and need to repent or you will be destroyed. Another prophet come to you and says he is also from the true God. He has seen your deeds and ha sort.aimed good things for you. Now, who do you believe? They can't both me true as their messages conflict. Only one is true and one is false. How could you tell the difference? First off, God has never spoken to you personally. So maybe you are sceptical to begin with in the belief of a God. But two people come to you saying that God gave them a message which is meant for you. Wouldn't you question why God gave them this message instead of giving it directly to you? God is all powerful and could easily give the message to the person it is intended to. But also you would find it made that people were hearing from God. Joseph smith, the founder of the ,after day saints, the Mormons, proclaimed that God sent to him an angel and gave him golden tablets. God apparently used him as a prophet. Yet how many of you reading this believes that this actually happened? How many of you have said instead that he was nuts. Would you, as the imaginary Israelite not think similarly at the time of Jeremiah?

But there is a way, biblically, to distinguish between a true and false prophet. Deuteronomy 18:20-22 gives us the answer. It says that if the word the prophet says doesn't come true then it hasn't come from God. So the way to tell if a prophet is true is to wait for the outcome. Think about how stupid that it is. There is no way of telling who the true and false prophet is until you wait for their message to come true or not. In the meantime there is no way of telling. If you had to make a choice before the outcome happened the there is a 50% chance of believing in the wrong prophet and thus receives gods judgement. Imagine again being an Israelite in jeremiahs time. The Babylonians have just chained you up to take you into exile. Oh yeah! Turns out Jeremiah was the true prophet after all. So I do need to repent and change my ways - oops to late now! If you have to wait for the outcome to know for certain who is a true prophet and who is a false prophet it could cost you your life. Does this not seem unfair? Could not God make it more obvious which prophet is true or not? Especially if time is needed for repentance to be made in order to avoid destruction? If you decided to chose between the two prophets what would God think to your listening to the wrong one? Is it really your Fault? Jeremiah 25:3 mentions that Jeremiah had been prophesying destruction for 23 years. 23 years! And during that time his message hadn't materialised. Imagine if you were 20 years old and you heard this message of destruction. You the have a child. During those next 23 years the child grows up and has a child of its own whilst Jeremiah continues to proclaim his message. Would you not think he was a false prophet as he has been prophecying for so long with no fulfilment?

Clearly, the biblical identification of a false and true p roper leaves a lot to be desired. And this way of identification apparently comes from our great and wonderful God can create the intricacies of atoms to galaxies yet cannot give mankind a better way of identifying false prophets?

Jeremiah 31:15. "Rachel is weeping for her sons". Yes we know this well. We read in Matthew of the slaughter of all young boys under the age of two. The writer of Matthew in chapter two, goes on to say that the scripture of Jeremiah of Rachel weeping for her children is fulfilled in that day. Really? Really?! This has to be one of the biggest misuse of scripture which has been used in order to provide Old Testament support to Jesus being the messiah. Read the context of Jeremiah 31. The whole nation of Israel and Judah have been destroyed and taken captive. They are now in Babylon. The symbolic Rachel is indeed at that time weeping for her children for they are captives. But then! In the very next verse God says "stop weeping! They will return!" God then promises they will return to their homeland and enjoy blessings. Did this happen - yes! They were set free after Babylon was destroyed and returned to their homeland. Rachel wept no more. Why on earth did the writer of Matthew believe this is a prophecy for the first century in regard to the death of children under the age of two? Even if this scripture was meant to be fulfilled in Jesus day, what about the part which says that Rachel needs to stop crying for they will return to their homeland? How was this part fulfilled in Jesus day? We're these children returned by the soldiers somehow? Were they resurrected by God or Jesus? No. They did not return. Why take one part of this prophecy and apply in hundreds of years later and not take the other part? This is a first century example of Old Testament scripture being taken out of context to try and support a different theology. I could do that. I could claim to be the messiah and pick random verses all over the Old Testament that I could fulfill. Here's one for you, in the same chapter of this Rachel prophecy, 31:30 - any man eating sour grapes will have his teeth set on edge. I will now go out and find some sour grapes and set my teeth on edge and then claim to have fulfilled scripture and so I must be a prophet or if not the messiah himself! Can you see how ridiculous this concept is?

This concludes my highlights of Jeremiah. This post was way longer than I ever intended. This has also given me an opportunity to reflect on what I have read to make sure I remember these points for future reference. If you have stuck with this post and read it in its entirety then I applaud you! Don't think I could have done the same. 😀