Posts by aChristian

103

The "Ransom Sacrifice" short version.

by Norm in

jw
friends

in the christian part of the world not many of us have escaped the much hyped and published sacrifice christ supposedly made when the romans executed him.. i myself was going around for years parroting this strange concept without giving it much thought.

thinking and faith some times do not mix very well.. anyway, apparently god made a royal blunder when he created the first humans and they plunged mankind into death and despair first crack out of the box, while god stood by and watched helplessly.

then we are told that god for this reason, in his infinite wisdom took mankind for ransom for thousands of years.

aChristian

Java,

I do not believe the Bible teaches that God is "omini-benevolent" toward all His creations. It only teaches that God has a very great love for mankind.

So far as God loving sparrows goes, I don't see that Jesus taught such a thing. He asked, "Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father. And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. So don't be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows." (Matt. 10:29-31) To me, this passage indicates that it is actually the will of God that sparrows die. Jesus' point was that God is all-knowing. So all-knowing that He is even aware of the death of every sparrow, even though sparrows mean very little to Him. Jesus' words convey the thought that because God is fully aware of everything, even the deaths of sparrows which He cares for far less than he does humans, He will certainly not forget any of us. I believe Jesus' words here indicate that, though God is all-knowing when it comes to sparrows, He is not all-loving when it comes to sparrows.

Jesus also spoke of sparrows in Luke 12:6,7. There he asked, "Are not five sparrows sold for two pennies? Yet not one of them is forgotten by God. Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Don't be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows." Again, his words here, "not one of them is forgotten by God," only indicate God's being all-knowing when it comes to sparrows, not His being all-loving towards sparrows.

These things being so, I do not believe it is accurate to say that the reality of what takes place in the animal kingdom is inconsistent with what the Bible has to say about God's love.

Mike

103

The "Ransom Sacrifice" short version.

by Norm in

jw
friends

in the christian part of the world not many of us have escaped the much hyped and published sacrifice christ supposedly made when the romans executed him.. i myself was going around for years parroting this strange concept without giving it much thought.

thinking and faith some times do not mix very well.. anyway, apparently god made a royal blunder when he created the first humans and they plunged mankind into death and despair first crack out of the box, while god stood by and watched helplessly.

then we are told that god for this reason, in his infinite wisdom took mankind for ransom for thousands of years.

aChristian

Stephen,

You wrote: the test if you will Adam and EVE failed is one of WILL (6th Chakra).

Sorry, I don't know anything about Chakras. I'm not into that New Age stuff. I prefer to stick with the Rock of Ages.

103

The "Ransom Sacrifice" short version.

by Norm in

jw
friends

in the christian part of the world not many of us have escaped the much hyped and published sacrifice christ supposedly made when the romans executed him.. i myself was going around for years parroting this strange concept without giving it much thought.

thinking and faith some times do not mix very well.. anyway, apparently god made a royal blunder when he created the first humans and they plunged mankind into death and despair first crack out of the box, while god stood by and watched helplessly.

then we are told that god for this reason, in his infinite wisdom took mankind for ransom for thousands of years.

aChristian

Steven,

You made some good points. And those points, I think, are very relevant to Jan's charges that the God of the Bible could not be the loving God described therein because of what Jan calls "natural evil." By "natural evil" Jan refers to things in nature which cause people pain and death. Things like disease, floods, earthquakes and volcanic eruptions. Jan's position maintains that the all-loving God described in the Bible would have carefully designed mankind's environment to make sure it was free of all elements which would cause people pain and death.

But such an argument is only valid if we understand the Bible to teach that God intended for the human race as physical people to live forever on earth. This is JW theology, but is it really a teaching supported by the Bible? No, it is not. The fact of the matter is that the Bible clearly teaches that God created the human race mortal. God created us to die.

The Genesis account clearly indicates that Adam and Eve were created mortal with a dying nature just like us. The story of Adam and Eve told in Genesis makes clear that their being able to live forever was not a part of their original physical nature. Rather, Adam and Eve's ability to live forever depended entirely on their eating from a tree "in the middle of the garden" of Eden, "the tree of life". (Genesis 2:9) Genesis tells us that Adam and Eve were going to be allowed to continue to eat from that tree only if they passed a God given test, a test which we are told they failed. After failing that test God expelled Adam and his wife from the Garden of Eden and prevented them from ever again eating from "the tree of life."

Genesis indicates that had Adam and Eve been allowed to continue eating from "the tree of life" their lives would have been prolonged indefinitely. (Genesis 3:22-24) But when God prevented them from ever again eating from "the tree of life" they died what were apparently natural deaths. A careful reading of the Genesis account shows us that living forever would have been as unnatural for Adam and Eve as it would now be for us.

Genesis does not indicate that Adam and Eve originally had eternal life programmed into their genetic codes by God and later had their genetic codes reprogrammed by God in order to remove eternal life from those codes. Rather, Genesis indicates that Adam and Eve would have lived forever only if God had graciously given them eternal life from an outside source, "the tree of life."

Of course, that "tree of life" was meant to picture Jesus Christ.

God was going to give Adam and Eve eternal life from an outside source, "the tree of life," only if they passed a very simple test. And the Bible tells us that we will be given eternal life from an outside source, Jesus Christ, only if we pass a very simple test. That test is to simply believe in our hearts that Christ's death was sufficient payment to buy every human being God's full forgiveness, forgiveness for both our sinful nature and our sinful acts.

So, since God created us to die and death is not a pleasant experience, would God have carefully designed our natural environment to be completely free of anything that might cause human beings pain and death? No, He would not have. The fact of the matter is, since God created us to die, he would have had to create a natural environment for us that contained things such as disease, floods, earthquakes and volcanic eruptions to make sure that we would die. For all deaths are caused by something. The fact is, there is no such thing as death by old age. Everyone dies either as a result of some sort of disease, as a result of some sort of accident - natural or otherwise - or as a result of the violent act of another human being. So, God would have only created a natural environment which contained nothing that might kill us if he intended for us to live forever on earth as physical people. But as you point out, that was not His intention.

103

The "Ransom Sacrifice" short version.

by Norm in

jw
friends

in the christian part of the world not many of us have escaped the much hyped and published sacrifice christ supposedly made when the romans executed him.. i myself was going around for years parroting this strange concept without giving it much thought.

thinking and faith some times do not mix very well.. anyway, apparently god made a royal blunder when he created the first humans and they plunged mankind into death and despair first crack out of the box, while god stood by and watched helplessly.

then we are told that god for this reason, in his infinite wisdom took mankind for ransom for thousands of years.

aChristian

Java,

I believe Jan's arguments are designed only to prove that the God of the Bible, who is said to be all-knowing, all-loving, and all-powerful, does not exist. You seem to be asking if he believes it is possible that a Supreme Being, other than the one described in the Bible, may exist and if he believes it is possible that this other Supreme Being may have created our universe. That's an interesting question and I will look forward to reading Jan's response.

For there are many people who believe our universe must have had a Creator but, having little respect for the Bible, they do not believe the God described therein could be that Creator. I don't believe Jan is one of these people. But for him to offer arguments proving that our universe could not have been created by a Creator who "doesn't give a rip about kindness" would be a pretty tough thing to do. An atheist's typical response to the challenge, "Prove there is no God," is "Prove invisible pink unicorns do not exist."

Their point is that some negatives are very difficult to prove. Of course, comparing the possible existence of a Creator with the possible existence of invisible pink unicorns is not a fair comparison. For we have absolutely no evidence for the existence of invisible pink unicorns. While we have much alleged evidence for the existence of a Creator. Several books have been written chock full of information which their authors tell us constitutes very strong evidence that our universe was designed and created by a super-intelligent designer/creator. These so-called "design characteristics," are said to not only provide evidence of intelligent design of life on earth, but also of virtually every aspect of the earth itself, the moon, our solar system, our galaxy and our universe.

I have been impressed with the evidence offered in such books and unimpressed with the replies atheists have given to the abundant evidence of design presented in them.

103

The "Ransom Sacrifice" short version.

by Norm in

jw
friends

in the christian part of the world not many of us have escaped the much hyped and published sacrifice christ supposedly made when the romans executed him.. i myself was going around for years parroting this strange concept without giving it much thought.

thinking and faith some times do not mix very well.. anyway, apparently god made a royal blunder when he created the first humans and they plunged mankind into death and despair first crack out of the box, while god stood by and watched helplessly.

then we are told that god for this reason, in his infinite wisdom took mankind for ransom for thousands of years.

aChristian

Ginny,

I did not say that all people who have common sense, who pray for God's help in understanding the Bible and do their best to put aside all of their preconceived notions while reading it would end up understanding all portions of scripture in the same way. I said I thought that those doing so would be able to determine which parts of the Bible are merely the personal opinions of Bible writers. Understanding all portions of scripture in the same way is another matter.

So far as what you should do when you run across an apparent Bible contradiction, I would advise that you study the text in question and try to resolve the matter on your own. I believe that nearly all such Bible difficulties can be resolved with a little study by someone possessing the "common sense" I spoke of, provided that the person possessing that "common sense" actually wants to find an answer to their question and is not just trying to find apparent contradictions in the scriptures for the purpose of criticizing the Bible.

For instance, let's take the apparent contradiction you have run across. Most people who have read the four gospels know that Jesus Christ's bold claims for himself, along with his authoritative style of teachings, made him a very polarizing personality. People either loved Jesus or they hated him. It was not long after Jesus began his ministry that people divided into two camps. People quickly became either supporters of Jesus Christ or opposers of Jesus Christ. Thus if people were not with Jesus they were against him. And if people were not against Jesus and his disciples they were for Jesus and his disciples.

When I first got on the Net I had many E-mail conversations with Bible critics. They would usually first present me with two or three so-called "Bible contradictions." They would tell me that if I could help them resolve those few "contradictions" then they might be able to seriously consider what the Bible has to say about Jesus Christ. But after I clearly showed them that the "Bible contradictions" they had presented me were really not contradictions at all they only threw more of such "contradictions" at me. And so it went. Sadly, it seems that for many people discussing the Bible with Christians is only a game. Quite often it seems the only real object of the game is to have fun poking and jabbing Christians. A similar but much more deadly version of this game was often played in ancient Rome.

Lately I have limited myself to discussing only one supposed "Bible contradiction" per post or E-mail. After that I encourage people to try to find answers to their own questions by reading a few good Bible commentaries. By the way, if you do so, you will find that Romans chapter nine can be understood quite differently than the way in which you now understand it.

You wrote: Jesus asks us to forgive others, to overlook their transgressions, to turn the other cheek. Why could not God do the same?

He does. "For God has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins." (Col. 1:13,14)

103

The "Ransom Sacrifice" short version.

by Norm in

jw
friends

in the christian part of the world not many of us have escaped the much hyped and published sacrifice christ supposedly made when the romans executed him.. i myself was going around for years parroting this strange concept without giving it much thought.

thinking and faith some times do not mix very well.. anyway, apparently god made a royal blunder when he created the first humans and they plunged mankind into death and despair first crack out of the box, while god stood by and watched helplessly.

then we are told that god for this reason, in his infinite wisdom took mankind for ransom for thousands of years.

aChristian

Jan,

You wrote: As I understand you, you assert that the reason humans suffer in this life, is because God wants to test us.

I don't think you understand me. I believe God allows evil to exist so that we may come to know both good and evil. I believe this first hand knowledge will serve all people well for all eternity, long after all evil has been removed from the universe.

You wrote: Those who are born in a Buddhist, Hindu or Muslim country almost invariably end up in these traditions. Do they go to hell by default? Most people have also been born in utmost poverty, without any life that can be considered a test of anything, except dying. What exactly was it God wanted to test, given that he created humans so at least half of all children dies shortly after birth?

First of all, God has promised to resurrect everyone who has ever lived and died, Christian, Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim and atheist alike. I believe at that time "God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ," including all those who did not have an opportunity to accept Christ as their Savior before they died. (Romans 2:16) I also believe that when Christ returns someday he will do so for the purpose of judging only the Christian world. The Watchtower Society teaches that God will soon kill everyone on earth except true Christians. Fortunately, the Bible does not teach that. Two-thirds of the earth's population has never even heard the good news of Jesus Christ, including billions of people in lands like China and India.

One thing that leads me to believe this way is that that the Bible tells us that "Judgment begins with the house of God." (1 Peter 4:17) Jesus also said those who will rule as kings with Him will "judge the 12 tribes of Israel." (Luke 22:30) To me this indicates that when Christ returns and draws all true Christians to Himself (Matt. 24:31), they will then determine who among those who have heard the good news of Jesus Christ and not taken it to heart are deserving of death. For "The 12 tribes of Israel," spoken of in Luke 22:30, I believe refers to all those who have heard the good news preached by those whom Galatians 6:16 calls "the Israel of God." Remember, the literal "12 tribes of Israel" had all heard the Law of Moses, but few had taken it to heart.

Remember too that it was only the city of Jerusalem that was destroyed in 70 AD, not the entire Roman empire, after those in Jerusalem who heeded Christ's words of warning had escaped. And First Century Jerusalem has long been understood to picture the Christian world, or as Jehovah's Witnesses call it, "Christendom." Also to be considered is a fact known by most serious students of the Bible, history and science. The flood of Noah's day was a local event, not a global one. God brought that judgment only upon a land that had heard the message of "Noah, a preacher of righteousness," and failed to respond to it. (2 Pet. 2:5) God did not take the lives of those in other parts of then widely populated earth who had not heard Noah's preaching.

Interestingly, Revelation chapters 8 and 9 talk quite a bit about "a third of the world" being judged. And by population, the part of the world claiming Christianity as its religion is almost exactly one-third. (See The World Almanac 1998, page 654)

If this understanding is correct, that Christ is returning to judge only the Christian world, Christians will then have plenty of people to rule over as they serve as kings with Christ for 1,000 years. These will include the billions of people you spoke of "who are born in a Buddhist, Hindu or Muslim country." Christians will then help these same people along with maybe billions more from the Christian world, who they showed mercy to knowing they had never received a proper Christian witness, to help come to know the true God as they serve as His "priests." For that is, after all, what priests do.

You quoted me as saying, "God cannot act unrighteously because God decides what is right and wrong." If you read the context of what I wrote you will see that I was not saying that God's decisions as to what constitutes right and wrong are arbitrary decisions. Rather, I was saying that like a parent, God is allowed to make rules for his children which he himself does not have to follow. A parent may tell his small children that they are not allowed to cross the street but a parent is not being hypocritical for crossing the street himself. Parents decide what is right and wrong for their children and cannot be accused of behaving unrighteously if they do not appear to be following all of those same rules.

You wrote: ... the existence of evil, in particular natural evil, is impossible to harmonize with the existence of the God of classical theism. .... isn't is possible that God could have made this guy suffer just a little bit less? Maybe just bled out of his nose? Of course He could have. This means that there could be less harm in the world than there actually is. But this should not be possible if God were omniscient, omnibenevolent, and omnipotent. .... Hence, God does not exist.

Your question, "Isn't is possible that God could have made this guy suffer just a little bit less?" gets to the heart of the problem of God permitting evil. Let me ask you this. If a good God does exist, would you really believe it if you saw "this guy suffering just a little bit less?" Of course you would not. For you know as well as I do that an omniscient, omnibenevolent, and omnipotent God, once He decided to stop evil, would have to stop all evil. If He were to stop only part of the evil that exists in this world, wouldn't you then still be asking the question, "If God exists, why is there evil in the world?" Would you really be any more likely to accept the existence of God if He stopped all "natural evil," pain caused by disease, earthquakes and the like, but allowed people to continue hurting each other? Of course you would not be. For a perfectly righteous God, once He decided to bring about an end to evil would have to bring about an end to all evil. He could not end all "natural evil" but allow people to continue to murder each other. He could not prevent all murder but continue to permit beatings and rapes. He could not stop all beatings and rapes but continue to allow all robberies, cheating and adultery.

I think you get my point. And I get yours. Basically, your position really maintains that any amount of pain or unrighteousness in the universe proves there is no God. However, I maintain that God has allowed pain, death and evil to exist for a time in order for us to learn valuable lessons while being exposed to it. I also believe that God will one day bring an end to evil. And I believe that, when He does so, He will then bring an end to all evil.

Mike

103

The "Ransom Sacrifice" short version.

by Norm in

jw
friends

in the christian part of the world not many of us have escaped the much hyped and published sacrifice christ supposedly made when the romans executed him.. i myself was going around for years parroting this strange concept without giving it much thought.

thinking and faith some times do not mix very well.. anyway, apparently god made a royal blunder when he created the first humans and they plunged mankind into death and despair first crack out of the box, while god stood by and watched helplessly.

then we are told that god for this reason, in his infinite wisdom took mankind for ransom for thousands of years.

aChristian

Ginny,

You asked: How does one determine which parts of the Bible are personal opinions and biased viewpoints?

I believe a careful reading of the text in question, along with its context, done by a person possessing a fair amount of common sense, who has also prayed for God's help in making such determinations, will have no trouble doing so.

You asked: Are we to filter the Bible yet again through the filter of our own opinions, viewpoints, and perceptions?

To some extent, we all filter everything we read "through the filter of our own opinions, viewpoints, and perceptions." However, those seeking to truly understand the Bible, or anything else for that matter, do their best to put aside all of their preconceived notions and prejudices while doing their reading.

You asked: In what places have the words of God been written down word-for-word?

All such places are usually clearly noted by the Bible writer. In the Old Testament they are usually accompanied by phrases such as, "The word of the Lord came to me," and "I the Lord have spoken." In the New Testament many translations make it quite easy. For they print the words of Christ in red. At times, in Paul's letters he tells his readers, "I give this command (not I, but the Lord)."

You wrote: I do not understand why, in a matter so important as communicating his wishes to mankind, he chose to use inferior materials.

Myself, I am glad God chose to reveal His will to us through the writings of men. By doing so God showed us that, despite the fact that we often fail to do what is right, He still loves us and accepts us as His children, and does not feel that we are not good enough for Him to speak to or through.

Mike

103

The "Ransom Sacrifice" short version.

by Norm in

jw
friends

in the christian part of the world not many of us have escaped the much hyped and published sacrifice christ supposedly made when the romans executed him.. i myself was going around for years parroting this strange concept without giving it much thought.

thinking and faith some times do not mix very well.. anyway, apparently god made a royal blunder when he created the first humans and they plunged mankind into death and despair first crack out of the box, while god stood by and watched helplessly.

then we are told that god for this reason, in his infinite wisdom took mankind for ransom for thousands of years.

aChristian

Ginny,

You wrote: I spoke up about Paul because for years I thought he spoke for God. His words have been treated as law by many Christian churches. Yet, he seems to have been only human, capable of prejudices, frustrations, and faulty thinking, as are we all.

Though Paul is often criticized in ways I believe are unfair, I agree with you that he was certainly "only human, capable of prejudices, frustrations, and faulty thinking, as are we all."
As you have correctly pointed out, the scriptures sometimes contain the personal opinions and biased viewpoints of their writers. At times this is clearly stated and at other times it is not. God used men to write the Bible. Imperfect men. So, I understand the Bible to be the inspired word of God as spoken through imperfect human "filters."

I also believe fundamentalists misunderstand the word "inspired" when it is used in scripture to refer to the men who wrote the Bible. I believe they change the meaning of the word "inspired" to mean something quite different than Bible writers themselves meant when they used that word. At times Bible writers exactly wrote down God's words as given to them word for word. I believe only at those times does the word "inspired" mean what fundamentalists seem to feel it means at all times when it is used to describe the words of scripture.

I compare the process of God's inspiration of the Bible to Rembrandt painting a picture. Rembrandt no doubt chose the best paints, brushes and canvasses available to him at the time. That being the case, it would hardly be fair for us today to criticize one of his paintings for having colors which are not quite as vibrant as those we see in nature, or for having clearly visible brushstrokes. I believe God chose to use men to write the Bible. And I believe he chose the best men available to him at the time. That being the case, I do not think it is fair to criticize the Bible for containing human imperfections.

Mike

103

The "Ransom Sacrifice" short version.

by Norm in

jw
friends

in the christian part of the world not many of us have escaped the much hyped and published sacrifice christ supposedly made when the romans executed him.. i myself was going around for years parroting this strange concept without giving it much thought.

thinking and faith some times do not mix very well.. anyway, apparently god made a royal blunder when he created the first humans and they plunged mankind into death and despair first crack out of the box, while god stood by and watched helplessly.

then we are told that god for this reason, in his infinite wisdom took mankind for ransom for thousands of years.

aChristian

Hi Alan,

You wrote: [So, according to you] God deliberately created humans so that they could never fully obey him. Doesn't that strike you as weird? Your exposition has not touched on why this is something that a reasonable creative entity would do, so far as I can see.

No, it does not strike me as weird. For I believe God wanted everyone who would at some point choose to live their lives righteously, and who He would later give the ability to do so perfectly, to have a first hand knowledge and understanding of why God's ways are best. God did not want even those who would freely choose to do things "His way" to not personally understand why "His way" is the best way. Only by creating the human race in such a way that all of us would be sure to gain a personal "knowledge of good and evil," (i.e., creating a human race that could never fully obey him) could God be certain that all of us would acquire such "knowledge." For only by making sure that every human being would personally experience the negative results of unrighteous living could God be sure that all who would sooner or later choose to live righteous lives would fully appreciate why doing things "God's way" is the best thing for us.

I believe "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" in Eden, which God told Adam and Eve not to eat from but from which he knew they would eat (being "forbidden fruit" and all), was meant to illustrate the situation we are now discussing.

You wrote: [So according to you] God deliberately created humans so that only a small, random fraction of them would end up gaining the prize of eternal life. Again isn't that a weird thing for God to do? Why would he want to do such a crazy thing? Why would he want most of his intelligent creatures to die? Why not just create ALL of them with the desire to choose to live a perfectly righteous life? If God can do it for that small fraction that randomly comes to possess the desire, why not for all? Why build in the defect in the first place?

You seem to feel that those who at some point in their lives choose to serve God make that choice solely due to their genetic programming. I doubt that is the case. But your basic question remains. Namely, "Why not just create ALL of us with the desire to choose to live a perfectly righteous life?" I do not believe God creates any of us with preprogrammed "desires." I believe God creates all us free to decide how we want to live our lives.

You wrote: Several of your statements are self-contradictory. For example, you said: quote:
Even if we now all had the ability to live perfectly righteous lives, few people would choose to do so.

I don't see how that is self-contradictory.

You asked: First, how do you know that?

Because we all now have the ability to live fairly righteous lives but few people choose to do so.

You asked: How can anyone say that someone with a perfect ability to live an incorruptible life would choose to act contrary to his nature?

Having an ability to do something is not the same thing as having a nature to do something. I have the ability to rape and to murder. However, I do not do these things. For they are not in my nature.

You wrote: Your above-quoted statement is contradicted by this one: quote: If God had created us incorruptible to begin with we would now have no such choice. We could not choose to do wrong. For if one has the ability to do wrong he is corruptible.

I don't see how that contradicts anything else I said.

You wrote: If it is true that if one has the ability to do wrong, he is corruptible, then it is equally true that if one is incorruptible, he does not have the ability to do wrong.

I agree. Once we are given incorruptibility we will no longer have the ability to do wrong. I would gladly give up that ability now. But I am glad I had it for a while. For having it has allowed me to gain a first hand appreciation for why God's ways are best that I could have never gained without it.

You asked: Are you saying that there are actually four potential categories of humans?
(1) Those who do not have the ability to live perfectly righteous lives.
(2) Those who have the ability to live perfectly righteous lives and choose to do so.
(3) Those who have the ability to live perfectly righteous lives but choose not to.
(4) Those who are incorruptible and therefore not only have the ability to live perfectly righteous lives, but do not have the ability not to do so.

I guess so.

You wrote: The bottom line of your argument amounts to this: God created humans such that only a small, random fraction would CHOOSE to obey him perfectly if they could. Only those who happen to possess this unlikely tendency will eventually gain the prize of being UNABLE TO CHOOSE to disobey God.

Again, I don't know about your "tendency" argument. Christ did say that more of us would end up on the road to destruction than on the road to life. But that does not mean God desired this to be the case. I have two children. I love them both. I have done everything I can to encourage each of them to make good choices in life. If one of them ends up choosing to live a life of crime, am I to blame? I believe that when Christ said most of us would end up on the road to destruction he was only predicting the future. Knowing the future and purposefully creating the future may be very different things, even for God. But now we get into questions of man's "free will" and "predestination," subjects which I told Jan I prefer to let professional theologians argue about.

You asked: Again, does this sound like what a reasonable creator would do?

I believe it does.

You wrote: "As flies to wanton boys are we to the gods; they kill us for their sport."

I believe that old saw is mistaken. I believe God loves each one of us very much.

103

The "Ransom Sacrifice" short version.

by Norm in

jw
friends

in the christian part of the world not many of us have escaped the much hyped and published sacrifice christ supposedly made when the romans executed him.. i myself was going around for years parroting this strange concept without giving it much thought.

thinking and faith some times do not mix very well.. anyway, apparently god made a royal blunder when he created the first humans and they plunged mankind into death and despair first crack out of the box, while god stood by and watched helplessly.

then we are told that god for this reason, in his infinite wisdom took mankind for ransom for thousands of years.

aChristian

Paul left Titus in Crete for the purpose of having him appoint "blameless," "upright" and "holy" Cretans to shepherd Christian congregations in Crete. (Titus 1:5-9) So, obviously Paul did not really believe that "Cretans are ALWAYS liars, evil brutes and lazy gluttons." (vs 12) If he really believed such a thing he could not have referred to some Cretans as "blameless," "upright" and "holy."

Paul asked Titus to appoint Cretan Christians having such good character to positions of oversight in their congregations for a very good reason. He told Titus he was doing so because there were then in Crete "many rebellious people, mere talkers and deceivers," who were there "ruining whole households by teaching things they ought not to teach." (vs 10,11) When Paul quoted and then apparently agreed with the then familiar words of Epimenides describing Cretans as "always" being "liars, evil beasts and lazy gluttons," he was simply using a bit of hyperbole to convey to Titus the magnitude of the problem which Christian congregations in Crete were then experiencing.