Posts by aChristian

57

SEX, LIES, DEMONS, & APOSTASY

by You Know in

the issue is as old as eden itself, that being: does god have the right to tell us what to do?

that core question, more than anything else, defines what jehovahs witnesses are about, in that we are outspoken advocates and supporters of jehovahs right as sovereign to require obedience from his creatures.

the flip side of that is, of course, rebellion against god, which is expressed in numerous ways and on all levels of society.

aChristian

Ab,

You wrote: So, it was a practical joke, or a game of some sort?

No, it was a demonstration of the fact that the human race is less righteous than God, and thus undeserving of eternal life.

You wrote: If your interpretation is true ... there never was a test as the test was not genuine.

Where in the Bible does it describe the events which took place in Eden as "a test"?

You wrote: after this happened, it's meant to have set up the question of whether humans could govern themselves which history from that point is meant to have answered.

Really? Where does it say that in the Bible? It doesn't. That is Watchtower theology, which you have thoroughly confused with biblical theology.

You wrote: But god had cursed mankind with disease, death, toil, labour-pains... almost to make sure they couldn't suceed, and on at least one occasion when they were doing well (Tower of Babel) intervened to mess things up, and on another occasion (The Flood) wiped everyone out bar those that were doing what he wanted, which contradicted any rules of fair-play.

Again all Watchtower/Fundy theology, not biblical theology.

You wrote: You contradict yourself; you say god gave us a sinful nature, but that he also made us free. That's contradictory.

Nope. Our "sinful" nature is simply that we, unlike God, have the ability to act unrighteously if we choose. That is also our "free" nature.

You wrote: No, not free. Inclined to do sin, as you state yourself. That is not free.

I never said we are "inclined" toward evil, anymore than we are inclined toward good.

You wrote: And not free to do good and evil, as evil attracts penalties, which means you are not free to be evil.

Evil attracts no real penalties. Death is not a penalty for doing evil. It is a part of our nature. We were not created to live forever. Eternal life, however, is a gift God gives to all whom He declares to be righteous because of what Jesus Christ did for us. To receive this gift we need only to accept it by faith.

You wrote: If we were created to live forever with god knowing Adam and Eve would sin, then taking away imortality for doing something they were designed to do is not fair.

We were not created to live forever. Neither were Adam and Eve. The Genesis account clearly indicates that Adam and Eve were created mortal with a dying nature just like us. The story of Adam and Eve told in Genesis makes clear that their being able to live forever was not a part of their original physical nature. Rather, Adam and Eve's ability to live forever depended entirely on their eating from a tree "in the middle of the garden" of Eden, "the tree of life." (Genesis 2:9) Genesis indicates that had Adam and Eve been allowed to continue eating from "the tree of life" their lives would have been prolonged indefinitely. (Genesis 3:22-24) But when God prevented them from ever again eating from "the tree of life" they died what were apparently natural deaths.

A careful reading of the Genesis account shows us that living forever would have been as unnatural for Adam and Eve as it would now be for us. Genesis does not indicate that Adam and Eve originally had eternal life programmed into their genetic codes by God and later had their genetic codes reprogrammed by God in order to remove eternal life from those codes. Rather, Genesis indicates that Adam and Eve would have lived forever only if God had graciously given them eternal life from an outside source, "the tree of life."

26

Parable of wheat and weeds

by HenryP in

jw
friends

i have been wondering the meaning of this parable.

i know what jehovah's witnesses believe it is, but is there another interpretation?

i found this article on it:.

aChristian

Yadirf,

I notice you avoided answering my earlier question. So, I'll ask it again.

Pertaining to Peter's being willing to baptize a man while he was yet in the military, and JWs now refusing to act in the same way, you wrote, "Those sort of things which God did during Christianity's infancy had a purpose for that period alone ... different conditions warrant different actions." What conditions do you believe are "different" today which prove to you that it was proper for Peter to have baptized a member of the military, and prove to you that it is now improper for Christians to do the same thing?

7

The History of Writting Can Help us with Genesis!

by D wiltshire in

i'm reading a book by isaac asimov called:.

"beginnings:.

the story of origens-.

aChristian

Dave,

You asked: Would you like to share some things you have learned in your studies of Genesis, the first 3 chapters?

I'm going to be pretty buzy the next few days. I'll e mail you privately as soon as I get a little time.

26

Parable of wheat and weeds

by HenryP in

jw
friends

i have been wondering the meaning of this parable.

i know what jehovah's witnesses believe it is, but is there another interpretation?

i found this article on it:.

aChristian

Yadirf,

Pertaining to Peter's being willing to baptize a man while he was yet in the military, and JWs now refusing to act in the same way, you wrote, "Those sort of things which God did during Christianity's infancy had a purpose for that period alone ... different conditions warrant different actions."

I'm curious. What conditions do you believe are "different" today which prove to you that it was proper for Peter to have baptized a member of the military, and prove to you that it is now improper for Christians to do the same thing? I understand your view that we no longer need miracles because we now have the complete Bible. But how does that fact change what kind of people should now be allowed to be baptized?

5

There are Many Dwelling in My Fathers House? John

by D wiltshire in

there are many dwelling in my fathers house?

john 14:2. does this refer to different dimensions?.

and does jesus going away and preparing a place,.

aChristian

Dave,

You wrote: There are Many Dwellings in My Fathers House? John 14:2
Does this refer to different Dimensions?

I believe Jesus was just saying "There is plenty of room for everyone in heaven."

You wrote: And does Jesus going away and preparing a place, for them mean, That God is preparing to let them live in his special realm?

I think so.

You wrote: And since Jesus said "I and the Father are ONE" and that his true followers will be ONE in the same way that he is One with the Father, does that mean,.. they will be like God the Father in the same way as Jesus is like God the Father?"

I believe the Witnesses may be somewhat correct in their explanation of John 10:30. When Jesus said, "I and the Father are one," He may have been referring to something other than just His Divine nature. He may have also been referring to the unity of thought and purpose that He and His father possess. As JWs point out, this may be seen by Christ's words recorded in John 17:20-23. There we see that Jesus once prayed these words: "I pray also for those who will believe in me THROUGH THEIR MESSAGE, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. ... that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me. MAY THEY BE BROUGHT INTO COMPLETE UNITY to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me."

We must remember that Jesus Christ is God's "ONLY Begotten Son." (John 3:16) To be "begotten," according to both the Biblical and dictionary definitions, means to be produced, not out of nothing, but from a parent's own body. Since Jesus Christ is the ONLY son God ever produced from His own "body" Jesus Christ is the only one of God's sons who now has, and I believe will ever have, the same kind of "body" as His Father. That being the case, I don't believe that we can ever "be like God the Father" in every way that "Jesus is like God the Father."

57

SEX, LIES, DEMONS, & APOSTASY

by You Know in

the issue is as old as eden itself, that being: does god have the right to tell us what to do?

that core question, more than anything else, defines what jehovahs witnesses are about, in that we are outspoken advocates and supporters of jehovahs right as sovereign to require obedience from his creatures.

the flip side of that is, of course, rebellion against god, which is expressed in numerous ways and on all levels of society.

aChristian

Thinker,

No you did not read it correctly. You cut that sentence in half and by so doing changed its meaning. Had you not done so, its meaning would have been clear. I wrote: "Because 'God is love,' and because God wanted to create people in his 'own image,' He wanted to create people whom He could have a loving relationship with. But since true love can be neither forced nor programmed, in order to have loving relationships with us, God had to create us as free people."

7

The History of Writting Can Help us with Genesis!

by D wiltshire in

i'm reading a book by isaac asimov called:.

"beginnings:.

the story of origens-.

aChristian

Dave,

The answer to part of your question seems pretty simple. According to the Bible Adam lived 930 years. That means that, if he was created in about 4000 BC, he died in about 3000 BC, the time Asimov estimates written records of historical events first began to be made. So then, if Asimov is correct, many of the events recorded in Genesis may have been written down by Adam and his immediate descendants, and then those written records may then been added to and passed down from generation to generation, and eventually been presented to Moses by the Hebrew people he had helped to free to assist him in his writing of Genesis.

However, eyewitness accounts cannot explain all of the contents of Genesis. Some things, such as the events which occurred prior to God's creation of Adam, must have been revealed to Moses, or to an earlier writer of the records Moses referred to when he wrote Genesis, by God Himself. For no man was around to witness the events recorded in Genesis which occurred before God created man.

57

SEX, LIES, DEMONS, & APOSTASY

by You Know in

the issue is as old as eden itself, that being: does god have the right to tell us what to do?

that core question, more than anything else, defines what jehovahs witnesses are about, in that we are outspoken advocates and supporters of jehovahs right as sovereign to require obedience from his creatures.

the flip side of that is, of course, rebellion against god, which is expressed in numerous ways and on all levels of society.

aChristian

Andee,

You asked, "If Jehovah is so perfect then what is the point of this whole juvenile chess game? Why not just create what he desires in the first place? Why set us up?"

The only way the story of Adam and Eve makes sense is to understand that God not only knew how things were going to end up in Eden, but that He deliberately set the whole thing up to make a point. What point? This one. If Adam in paradise, without a problem in the world, could not manage to obey one simple command from God, what chance does any human being have of living their entire trouble-plagued life without sinning either in word, thought or deed? No chance at all. That is the lesson that was illustrated in Eden. Human beings have a sinful nature. A nature which God gave us.

Why did God give us a "sinful" nature? Because "God is love," and because God wanted to create people in his "own image," He wanted to create people whom He could have a loving relationship with. But since true love can be neither forced nor programmed, in order to have loving relationships with us, God had to create us as free people. Free to choose to love God and His ways or to not love God and His ways. In other words, free to do both right and wong, free to do both good and evil.

Because we can do wrong and often do, and because God can't do wrong and never does, we are less righteous than God. And because we are none of us deserve to live forever. That means all human beings have, in effect, from their births been condemned by God to die. Not because of anything Adam did, but because we ourselves all fall short of the glory of God. (Romans 3:23)

That's the bad news. Now the Good News. The Bible tells us that God was willing to accept the death of His Son Jesus Christ in place of the deaths which own His high standards - only those who are completely righteous deserve to live forever - had determined we all must suffer. (Matthew 20:28; John 10:11; Romans 3:24; 1 Corinthians 6:20; Ephesians 1:7; 1 Timothy 2:5,6; Hebrews 9:26; 1 Peter 1:18,19; 1 John 1:7; 4:10; Rev. 5:9.)

This is the Good News presented in the pages of the New Testament. That even though God's high standards demanded our deaths as the penalty for our sins, He is willing to accept the death of Jesus Christ in place of the deaths of all who now also accept Christ's death as payment in full for all their sins. And because God accepts Christ's death as payment for the sins of Christians, He no longer considers Christians to be sinners. Rather, He considers them to be righteous ones who are now fully worthy of eternal life. And because He does, He now promises to give eternal life to all who put their faith in Jesus Christ.

7

Matt. 24

by larc in

jw
friends

remember,.

remember being at the door and reading from matt.

24 to prove that we are in the last days?

aChristian

I just wanted to point out that it is not Matthew 24 that is in error here, just the Watchtower Society's interpretation of it.

Jehovah's Witnesses teach that crime, wars, contagious disease, earthquakes, famine and the like are signs of Christ's second presence and have been much worse since the year 1914 than in past generations. They teach that this proves that Christ returned in that year. However, as Lark has pointed out, the facts show that, if the Bible is truly the word of God, this must be a misunderstanding of scripture.

Read Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 carefully and you will find what Jesus was really saying. His point was that such conditions would exist all the way up to the time of his return and would not be signs of his return at all. He warned his disciples that they should not be worried by such things. He said, "These things must take place but the end will not come right away." (Luke 21:9) He compared the difficult times to come to "birth pains." (Mt. 24:8) For just as a woman must often undergo a long painful period of time before she finally gives birth, so Jesus indicated that our world had much pain to endure before he would return.

To support their "composite sign of Christ's invisible presence" interpretation of scripture the Watchtower Society has shamelessly played with crime, war, disease and earthquake statistics for many years in an attempt to prove their contentions. The truth is, however, since 1914 none of these problems has gotten worse and most have gotten much better compared to past generations.

An objective study of scripture and history clearly shows that the Society's "composite sign" interpretation is not a teaching of scripture. However, the dishonest men who run the Watchtower Society tell all Jehovah's Witnesses that they must accept this obvious misinterpretation of scripture and distortion of history.

17

Is 1914 date flawed?

by badboy in

jw
friends

reasoning from the scriptures says on pp95-97 that months consist of 30 days.. years therefore would be 360 days long.. i have calcaluted(sic)that for every year in the `western'calender such a 360 day calender would fall 4/5 days depending on whether it was a leapyear or not.

now over a period of 2520 years,a 360 day calender would be 9,940 days behind a 364/5 day calender(25 years!

) therefore 2520 years according to book of daniel would fall in 1889!.

aChristian

Badboy,

I think you understate the problem with this aspect of the Watchtower's 1914 interpretation. There are several calendar related problems with this interpretation.

First, JWs tell us that the "times" of Daniel 4 referred to "prophetic years" of 360 days each. Their belief is based on the idea that the "1260 days" spoken of in Revelation 12 are there equated with the "3 and 1/2 times" also there spoken of. But this is not necessarily so. (For instance, the 1260 days in Rev. 12:6 may possibly refer to the time when Christianity was protected between the time of Christ's ascension and the time the Spirit was poured out on the Gentiles in 36 AD. Then, when the good news began to be preached to all national groups Christianity took off, as though it had wings of eagles, and was thereafter protected for a second longer period of time. This second period of protection was the "3 and 1/2 times" spoken of in Rev. 12:14. This "3 and 1/2 times" would then be understood to be the period of time from 36 AD until the time of Christ's return.) Since some interpretations of Revelation 12, such as this one, say that the "1260 days" and the "3 and 1/2 times" do not refer to the same period of time, it is quite possible that the concept of a 360 day "prophetic year" does not even exist in the Bible.

Second, as you have pointed out, it seems contradictory that each of the 360 days in each of these 7 supposed "prophetic years" was meant to picture a solar year containing 365.24 days. For if days were meant to be understood as years, then it would follow that days in prophetic years ought to be understood as an equal number of 360 day "prophetic years," not an equal number of 365.24 day solar years.

Third, this interpretation of Daniel 4 is internally inconsistent with both Daniel and Revelation. The Watchtower's interpretation of Daniel 4 tells us that its "seven times" = 2,520 years. We are told that the cryptic word "times" clearly indicates a greater meaning than just "seven years." But when the term "3 and 1/2 times" (half of seven times) is used in both Daniel and Revelation (Dan. 8:25; Rev.12:14) the Watchtower does not say those "3 and 1/2 times" equal 1,260 years, half of 2,520 years. To do so would certainly be consistent with their Daniel 4 interpretation. But the Watchtower Society tells us that when the term "3 and 1/2 times" appears in the Bible it simply means 3 and 1/2 years and nothing more.

Finally, we should remember that the Jews used a lunar calendar which contained six months of 30 days and six months of 29 days, totaling 354 days. The Jews adjusted their lunar calendars by adding a thirteenth month to them every few years to prevent them from falling too far out of sync with the solar year. But the fact remains that a "year" to the Jews meant a 354 day lunar year, not a 365 day solar year, and definitely not a 360 day "prophetic" year. So, if the word "times" in Daniel 4 was meant to be understood as "years," Daniel almost certainly would have understood them as 354 day lunar years.

These are only the calendar related problems with the Watchtower's "1914" interpretation of Daniel 4. There are, of course, many more problems with it.