i was just reading moxy's post "biggest mathematical miracle in the world" .
and as i was reading all the logical reasons why it would have been impossible at least physically impossible, for that many israelites not to mention even one, to wonder through the desert 40 years and not leave a trace of their even having been there.. the only thing that seems to be more incredible then that is how many people on earth believe it.
regardless of weather it's true or not what is it that continues to inspire millions and billions of people to continue to believe?
Rem,
You and I have disagreed about a few things but not this one. I have a copy of this book. It was given to me. I cringed with embarassment for Christianity nearly everytime I tuned a page while reading it. It is pure garbage from beginning to end.
<center><font size=+2>the 'c'-word debate:</font><br>.
<font size=+3><i>what is a c-u-l-t?</font></center></strong></font></font>.
whether a religious group like jehovah's witnesses qualifies for being defined as a cult.
IW,
That :D was supposed to turn into a smiley. One of these days I'll learn how to do that smiley thing. By the way, I just noticed that you have been spending much too much time on this board. Since you have been here you have made on average 1.1937321 posts per day. I, on the other hand, have averaged only 1.1772853 posts per day. Try to spend your time more productively!
<center><font size=+2>the 'c'-word debate:</font><br>.
<font size=+3><i>what is a c-u-l-t?</font></center></strong></font></font>.
whether a religious group like jehovah's witnesses qualifies for being defined as a cult.
IW,
You are wrong about Paul. :D
subject: love your enemies.
example: matthew 5:45.
"for god makes it rain upon the righteous and the unrighteous".
Radar,
In your original post you quoted Matthew 5:45, in which we read that Jesus said, "God makes it rain upon the righteous and the unrighteous."
I understand that you were questioning his logic. However, I think his logic in this instance was quite sound. He was using this example of God's goodness to teach us that we should be willing to do good things for our enemies, just as God does some good things for His enemies. Jesus did not say that God provides all of his enemies needs. Neither did he say that we should supply all of our enemies' needs.
I wrote: Granted, God is not at this time providing all the needs of all the people on earth. That is not proof that a loving God does not exist.
You responded: My original post was not about whether God exists or not, simply that the logic of what Christ is purported to say is in error and reveals the God of the Bible to be an unloving uncaring entity.
I said that the example you provided does not prove "that a LOVING God does not exist." You said that Christ's words reveal "the God of the Bible to be an unloving uncaring entity." In other words, you were, in fact, implying that Christ's words indicate that the God of the Bible is not a loving God and "that a LOVING God does not exist." That is why I argued that neither his words nor your commentary on them proved any such thing.
You wrote: The existence of evil in the Earth does not of itself prove there is no God, but it does prove that the Bible’s depiction of a loving God, a sort of “Big dad in the sky” is rubbish.
I don't think that the Bible depicts God to be a “Big dad in the sky” who always provides all the needs of all His children. It seems to me you have set up a "straw man" to knock over.
why the ransom?.
when you think of all those suffering today and throughout the generations, and all this happened just because two inexperienced people went up against a powerful spirit creature and lost.!.
now, if someone is in jail, lets say for something like stealing, someone can perhaps pay for their release on bail.
Xander,
I wrote: To "know" something, in the biblical sense ......
You responded: It does not always mean this. You are making an assumption, on which your whole argument rests.
Yes, I am. But my assumption is a reasonable one with biblical support. And if it is a correct one then the whole story of Adam and Eve and the tree of the knowledge of good and bad makes sense.
subject: love your enemies.
example: matthew 5:45.
"for god makes it rain upon the righteous and the unrighteous".
Running man,
You wrote: Wouldn't your children who starved and lived in the street, be rightfully bitter? - Especially if they later found out that you were wealthy, in fact controlling all of the food in the world?
The comments I made to Radar above also apply to your question.
subject: love your enemies.
example: matthew 5:45.
"for god makes it rain upon the righteous and the unrighteous".
Radar,
You wrote: You would not give your daughter groceries and at the same time allow your other daughter to starve would you? What loving father would neglect giving his child something so basic as food?
Granted, God is not at this time providing all the needs of all the people on earth. That is not proof that a loving God does not exist. It is only proof that if He exists He has not chosen to bring an end to all evil and all suffering at this time.
Let me ask you this. If a good God does exist, would you really believe He exists if everyone on earth always had plenty to eat? Of course you would not. For you know as well as I do that a good all powerful God, once He decided to stop evil and suffering, would have to stop all evil and suffering. If He were to stop only part of it, like world hunger, then wouldn't you still be asking the question, "If a good God exists, why is there other kinds of evil and suffering in the world?" Would you really be any more likely to accept the existence of a good God if He stopped world hunger but allowed people to continue hurting each other? Of course you would not be. For a good all powerful God, once He decided to bring about an end to evil and suffering would have to bring about an end to all evil and suffering. He could not end world hunger but allow people to continue to murder each other. He could not prevent all murder but continue to permit beatings and rapes. He could not stop all beatings and rapes but continue to allow all robberies, cheating and adultery.
I think you get my point. And I get yours. Basically, your position really maintains that any amount of suffering or unrighteousness in the universe proves there is no God. However, I maintain that God has allowed suffering, death and evil to exist for a time in order for us to learn valuable lessons while being exposed to it. And because God is both good and all powerful He cannot stop only some evil and suffering. The Bible tells us that God will one day bring an end to evil. And it tells us that when He does so, He will bring an end to all evil.
subject: love your enemies.
example: matthew 5:45.
"for god makes it rain upon the righteous and the unrighteous".
DE,
How do you know they are not?
subject: love your enemies.
example: matthew 5:45.
"for god makes it rain upon the righteous and the unrighteous".
Radar,
I believe your reasoning is faulty.
I have a daughter who lives in a dorm at college. If I take her a bag of groceries today, should she not thank me? If I do not also do so tomorrow, is it right for her to then curse me? I have more than one child. Occasionally I give them all gifts. However, I seldom give them all gifts on the same day. Is it right for one of my children who did not receive a gift from me on one particular day, but who has received gifts from me on other days, to curse me because they did not receive a gift from me on that particular day? When I give my children gifts the gifts I give them are seldom identical to the gifts I have recently given to their siblings. Is it right for my children to not appreciate the gifts I give them because the gifts I give them are different from the gifts I have recently given to my other children?
why the ransom?.
when you think of all those suffering today and throughout the generations, and all this happened just because two inexperienced people went up against a powerful spirit creature and lost.!.
now, if someone is in jail, lets say for something like stealing, someone can perhaps pay for their release on bail.
Julien,
You asked: are you saying A&E had knowledge of good so they should have known it was good to obey, but no knowledge of bad so as to satisfy the written implication (since they hadn't yet eaten from the ToKoG&B)?
To "know" something, in the biblical sense, means to have an intimate knowledge of it. Such as in the statement, "Joseph did not know Mary until after she had given birth to Jesus."
That being the case, Adam and Eve had an intimate knowledge of good before they disobeyed God. For they personally knew by experience all the good things being obedient to God brought them. But until they disobeyed God they did not really "know" evil. For they had no intimate knowledge of evil. For such a "knowledge" would include having experienced the harmful effects of evil, a knowledge which Adam and Eve only acquired after they disobeyed God.
