subject: love your enemies.
example: matthew 5:45.
"for god makes it rain upon the righteous and the unrighteous".
Running man,
You wrote: Wouldn't your children who starved and lived in the street, be rightfully bitter? - Especially if they later found out that you were wealthy, in fact controlling all of the food in the world?
The comments I made to Radar above also apply to your question.
subject: love your enemies.
example: matthew 5:45.
"for god makes it rain upon the righteous and the unrighteous".
Radar,
You wrote: You would not give your daughter groceries and at the same time allow your other daughter to starve would you? What loving father would neglect giving his child something so basic as food?
Granted, God is not at this time providing all the needs of all the people on earth. That is not proof that a loving God does not exist. It is only proof that if He exists He has not chosen to bring an end to all evil and all suffering at this time.
Let me ask you this. If a good God does exist, would you really believe He exists if everyone on earth always had plenty to eat? Of course you would not. For you know as well as I do that a good all powerful God, once He decided to stop evil and suffering, would have to stop all evil and suffering. If He were to stop only part of it, like world hunger, then wouldn't you still be asking the question, "If a good God exists, why is there other kinds of evil and suffering in the world?" Would you really be any more likely to accept the existence of a good God if He stopped world hunger but allowed people to continue hurting each other? Of course you would not be. For a good all powerful God, once He decided to bring about an end to evil and suffering would have to bring about an end to all evil and suffering. He could not end world hunger but allow people to continue to murder each other. He could not prevent all murder but continue to permit beatings and rapes. He could not stop all beatings and rapes but continue to allow all robberies, cheating and adultery.
I think you get my point. And I get yours. Basically, your position really maintains that any amount of suffering or unrighteousness in the universe proves there is no God. However, I maintain that God has allowed suffering, death and evil to exist for a time in order for us to learn valuable lessons while being exposed to it. And because God is both good and all powerful He cannot stop only some evil and suffering. The Bible tells us that God will one day bring an end to evil. And it tells us that when He does so, He will bring an end to all evil.
subject: love your enemies.
example: matthew 5:45.
"for god makes it rain upon the righteous and the unrighteous".
DE,
How do you know they are not?
subject: love your enemies.
example: matthew 5:45.
"for god makes it rain upon the righteous and the unrighteous".
Radar,
I believe your reasoning is faulty.
I have a daughter who lives in a dorm at college. If I take her a bag of groceries today, should she not thank me? If I do not also do so tomorrow, is it right for her to then curse me? I have more than one child. Occasionally I give them all gifts. However, I seldom give them all gifts on the same day. Is it right for one of my children who did not receive a gift from me on one particular day, but who has received gifts from me on other days, to curse me because they did not receive a gift from me on that particular day? When I give my children gifts the gifts I give them are seldom identical to the gifts I have recently given to their siblings. Is it right for my children to not appreciate the gifts I give them because the gifts I give them are different from the gifts I have recently given to my other children?
why the ransom?.
when you think of all those suffering today and throughout the generations, and all this happened just because two inexperienced people went up against a powerful spirit creature and lost.!.
now, if someone is in jail, lets say for something like stealing, someone can perhaps pay for their release on bail.
Julien,
You asked: are you saying A&E had knowledge of good so they should have known it was good to obey, but no knowledge of bad so as to satisfy the written implication (since they hadn't yet eaten from the ToKoG&B)?
To "know" something, in the biblical sense, means to have an intimate knowledge of it. Such as in the statement, "Joseph did not know Mary until after she had given birth to Jesus."
That being the case, Adam and Eve had an intimate knowledge of good before they disobeyed God. For they personally knew by experience all the good things being obedient to God brought them. But until they disobeyed God they did not really "know" evil. For they had no intimate knowledge of evil. For such a "knowledge" would include having experienced the harmful effects of evil, a knowledge which Adam and Eve only acquired after they disobeyed God.
why the ransom?.
when you think of all those suffering today and throughout the generations, and all this happened just because two inexperienced people went up against a powerful spirit creature and lost.!.
now, if someone is in jail, lets say for something like stealing, someone can perhaps pay for their release on bail.
Julien,
You wrote: I don't know why God didn't just lower his standards for who deserves to live?
The idea of low standards in Heaven does not appeal to me. Would you really want to spend eternity in a world filled with people who were quite willing to hurt others to benefit themselves. A world populated with such people, who knew they were immortal, would not be Heaven. It would be Hell. That, I believe, is why God has decided to give immortality only to those who are perfectly righteous.
The Bible indicates that God will give immortality only to Christians who now desire to live righteously. And it tells us that at the time God gives them immortality, He will also make them "incorruptible." That means they will then all have the ability to do what they now only have the desire to do. To live their lives as righteously as their Lord Jesus Christ lives His. I will enjoy spending eternity with such people. And I'm glad God does not lower His standards.
why the ransom?.
when you think of all those suffering today and throughout the generations, and all this happened just because two inexperienced people went up against a powerful spirit creature and lost.!.
now, if someone is in jail, lets say for something like stealing, someone can perhaps pay for their release on bail.
Radar,
You wrote: You can't have it both ways. ... By your logic this means that god aint free! for he can do no wrong.
I don't try to have it both ways. For I never said God was free in the way that we are. We are free in that we are able to either live our lives in the way that God wants us to live them, or to live our lives in a way that is contrary to God's wishes. God is not free in such a way. He must, of course, always behave according to His wishes.
why the ransom?.
when you think of all those suffering today and throughout the generations, and all this happened just because two inexperienced people went up against a powerful spirit creature and lost.!.
now, if someone is in jail, lets say for something like stealing, someone can perhaps pay for their release on bail.
Xander,
I wrote: Adam and Eve already had a knowledge of good.
You asked: How do you know that? .... Does [a young child] know good vs. Evil? No!
I didn't say Adam and Eve already knew "good vs. Evil" or that they knew good and evil. I said they already knew good. For they already knew God, and "God is good."
You wrote: Since you start with the assumption that 'God is good' you must assume ... that he wouldn't devise a test that was impossible to pass.
I don't assume that at all. In fact I think a good God deliberately designed a test that He knew Adam and Eve would fail. But I believe that He did so for a very "good" reason. What you call a "test," I call a demonstration. I believe the events in Eden were set up to demonstrate the fact that people are incapable of living perfectly righteous lives, and that because we are, we are all undeserving of eternal life.
You wrote: But, he didn't create Adam and Eve as 'free people'. Read the Genesis account critically...
I have.
You wrote: 1) Adam and Eve were naked and didn't realize it.
I believe that the story of Adam and Eve in Eden was meant by God to illustrate some important lessons. Primarily that no human being, being less righteous than God, is deserving of eternal life. And that because we are always less righteous than God we are always in need of His forgiveness even when we have not recently committed any "sinful" act. I believe this lesson was illustrated by Adam and Eve being totally unaware of their nakedness before God until after they had committed a blatant act of disobedience. (Nakedness is a condition always portrayed as shameful in the scriptures.) Then, suddenly, after they had "sinned" they became aware of their nakedness and felt the need to "hide from God." Just as we often only become aware of our shameful condition before God after committing some "sinful act." And just as we then often feel ashamed of ourselves and try to hide from God by withdrawing from Him by not praying or by not attending Church, etc., until we finally get over our guilt. However, the fact is, we are no more worthy to stand in the presence of a perfect God before committing a "sinful act" than we are after doing so. Just as Adam and Eve were, in reality, just as naked before they disobeyed God as they were after doing so. They just didn't realize it.
I am willing to discuss this subject matter further with you if you really want to understand the scriptures. If you do, let me know.
why the ransom?.
when you think of all those suffering today and throughout the generations, and all this happened just because two inexperienced people went up against a powerful spirit creature and lost.!.
now, if someone is in jail, lets say for something like stealing, someone can perhaps pay for their release on bail.
"Stacking the deck against a person"? Let's see.
God creates us as free people, allowing us to do both right and wrong. So He does not force anyone to do things "His way." Is that OK with you so far? Then He treats every one of us equally well, allowing His rain and sunshine to fall upon all of us, both those who choose to serve him and those who don't, allowing both good things and bad things to happen to all of us equally, both those who choose to serve Him and those who don't, all of our natural lives. Is that OK with you so far? Then He says, that since only those who are perfectly righteous deserve to live forever, He will overlook all of our unrighteousness and give us all eternal life, even though none of us deserve it. Is that OK with you so far? Then He says that He will do this if we will just believe in our hearts that He paid the price for all of our unrighteousness by allowing His only begotten Son to die in our place. Is that OK with you? Maybe not.
This seems to be the part that is too much for many people. They say God should just give them eternal life and not ask anything of them. They say that God is asking too much of them when He says they must believe something in order to gain eternal life. To me this seems quite odd. Why? Because people are often willing to believe things to gain just a few years of life. But they are unwilling to believe something to gain eternal life.
People often jump out of burning buildings because they are willing to believe the promises of complete strangers that they will catch them in a large blanket when they do. People on sinking ships often jump into icy cold seas because they are willing to believe the promises of complete strangers that they will immediately pull them out of those waters and into a nearby lifeboat. They don't complain that their rescuers are asking too much of them. They don't say that their rescuers should come and physically carry them out of those buildings and off of those ships. They don't say that their rescuers asked too much of them by requiring them to take a "leap of faith" to gain life. But people complain all the time that God asks too much of us by requiring us to take a similar "leap of faith" to gain eternal life.
Go figure.
why the ransom?.
when you think of all those suffering today and throughout the generations, and all this happened just because two inexperienced people went up against a powerful spirit creature and lost.!.
now, if someone is in jail, lets say for something like stealing, someone can perhaps pay for their release on bail.
Radar,
The point I was making was that God made us free. Because He did, we can do what is wrong and often do. This makes us less righteous than God, because God cannot do wrong and so never does. (The Bible tells us God is "incorruptible.")
When I said that God made us "sinful," I was defining "sinful" as being less "righteous than God." For the Bible tells us that "All unrighteousness is sin."
To say that God is responsible for evil because He made us free to do both good and evil is like saying that steak knife manufactuers are resposible for murders because their product is able to be used in that way.
