Posts by FlyingHighNow

16

The Cult of N. Korea--Frontline's Secret State of North Korea compare to WTBTS--discussion

by FlyingHighNow in

did any of you see this program on pbs?

did you see how dangerously similar n. korea is to the wtbts?

did you notice one huge difference, that north koreans are not brainwashed like most still active jws are?

FlyingHighNow

Thank you, Twitch, for the link. What struck me about N. Koreans is that while some are brainwashed, the N. Korean techniques aren't affective with all citizens. This means the WTBTS is possibly more effective than even the N. Korean govt in brainwashing techniques.

Breakfast and Gypsy, I'll be interested in your comments.

Something striking about N. Koreans is the poverty that many suffer, especially children. This makes me think of the poverty Jehovah's Witnesses experience due to the lack of education and pressure not to have jobs that interfere with meetings, study, etc.

This is cut and paste from Twitch's link:

Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism

Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism
Book cover, 1989 edition
Author	Robert Jay Lifton, M.D.
Translator	Richard Jaffe (Chinese)
Cover artist	Shelley Gruendler
Country	United States
Language	English
Subject	Psychology Brainwashing Mind control
Genre	Non-fiction
Publisher	Norton, New York (1961, first edition) University of North Carolina Press (reprint)
Publication date	1961, 1989 (UNC Press reprint)
Media type	Paperback
Pages	524 (1989 reprint)
ISBN	0-8078-4253-2
OCLC Number	19388265
Dewey Decimal	153.8/53/0951 19
LC Classification	BF633 .L5 1989

Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism: A Study of "Brainwashing" in China is a non-fiction book by psychiatrist Robert Jay Lifton on the psychology of brainwashing and mind control.

Lifton's research for the book began in 1953 with a series of interviews with American servicemen who had been held captive during the Korean War. In addition to interviews with 25 Americans, Lifton also interviewed 15 Chinese who had fled their homeland after having been subjected to indoctrination in Chinese universities. From these interviews, which in some cases occurred regularly for over a year, Lifton identified the tactics used by Chinese communists to cause drastic shifts in one's opinions and personality and "brainwash" American soldiers into making demonstrably false assertions.

The book was first published in 1961 by Norton in New York. [ 1 ] The 1989 reprint edition was published by University of North Carolina Press. [ 2 ] Lifton is a Distinguished Professor of Psychiatry at the John Jay College of Criminal Justice, City University of New York.

16

The Cult of N. Korea--Frontline's Secret State of North Korea compare to WTBTS--discussion

by FlyingHighNow in

did any of you see this program on pbs?

did you see how dangerously similar n. korea is to the wtbts?

did you notice one huge difference, that north koreans are not brainwashed like most still active jws are?

FlyingHighNow

Thank you, Apognophos. I'm relieved to know my OP isn't completely incoherent.

Even so, FHN gave examples of how some Koreans are much less compliant than JWs, showing that the kind of control that the Society has could well be worse in some ways.

I've long theorized that fear has always been the best tool to control individuals, groups or masses. I wonder if men figured out a long time ago, that to play on the basic fears of human beings is very effective in keeping them under control. I'll use women for example. Women have more of a natural need to protect their bodies when it comes to sexual intercourse. We have more to lose in that we can become pregnant. So I look at women as the gatekeepers to sex, more of the time than not. It gives us kind of natural advantage and even power in sexual situations. Think back a long time ago. A man could beat up a woman or tie her up and force her to comply to sexual relations. That's a lot of trouble and bruises and restraints are not a turn on for every man. Men could make laws requiring wives to submit everytime their husbands desired sex. Then what? Haul them down to the jail for non compliance? Put them in public stocks? It's not exactly going to get the husbands sex with their wives. What to do? Convince women that their god(s)/goddesses will torture or condemn them eternally if they do not submit to sex with their husbands. The only effort required is to play on the fears of the women. No beatings, restraints or jails are necessary, unless of course the women don't care about eternity.

285

Dead pregnant woman forced to stay on life support, due to TX State law

by adamah in

there's an interesting medicolegal issue arising out of tx, a pregnant women who suffered a pulmonary embolism in november and died (when she was 14 weeks pregnant).. however, the body has been kept on life-support all this time (against her and her husband's wishes), due to an ambiguous tx state law (tex hs.

code ann.

166.049) which actually blocks the ability of the patient and family to decide:.

FlyingHighNow

I agree, Samswife, that is is very sad for the family.

From the article you presented:

There were also two cases involving fetuses that were 15 weeks old when their mothers died. One of the fetuses died in utero 49 days after its mother suffered catastrophic bleeding in the brain in Italy in 1992. The other remained in utero for 107 days – more than 15 weeks – after its mother suffered a traumatic brain injury in the U.S. in 1989. That baby boy was delivered by C-section at 32 weeks; he weighed 3.4 pounds, had Apgar scores of 6 and 9 (scores lower than 7 indicate a newborn needs medical attention, according to the National Institutes of Health), and was developing normally 11 months after his birth.

If the baby develops normally and arrives in a healthy state, mentally and phsyically, it's birth will be bittersweet. It's hard to imagine the love that you will feel for a child who hasn't been born. Recently, we welcomed a new nephew who is a forth child. I just couldn't imagine loving this child as much as his older siblings, all of which have wonderful personalities. He is 3 and 1/2 months old today and I am totally smitten. I imagine that this family will fall in love and feel very protective, moments after the child is born.

I wonder what more liberal states do in the case of a pregnant woman who is on life support, but is braindead, where advanced directive is involved. I'm doubting that Texas is the only state with a law which protects the life of the unborn.

285

Dead pregnant woman forced to stay on life support, due to TX State law

by adamah in

there's an interesting medicolegal issue arising out of tx, a pregnant women who suffered a pulmonary embolism in november and died (when she was 14 weeks pregnant).. however, the body has been kept on life-support all this time (against her and her husband's wishes), due to an ambiguous tx state law (tex hs.

code ann.

166.049) which actually blocks the ability of the patient and family to decide:.

FlyingHighNow

It is a extremely tough call, but what is your final answer, if anyone dares to claim to possess the wisdom to know of all of these unknowns you highlighted?

If the baby could be shown to be healthy, normal and capable of living a normal life after it's birth, I don't think the emotional reaction and resulting demand of the baby's father or family should be more important than the life of the developing, healthy baby. The mother isn't suffering. If the baby could be proven to be only kept "alive" via the life support used to keep the body of the mother living, in other words, if the baby is brain dead, then certainly there is no reason to continue the mother on life support. I don't know how I feel about a child who is affected by some degree of oxygen deprivation. I'm not in the position of having to make such a decision. I'd have to be face to face with it to make my own decision. I am not going to make the decision for the fetus involved. In the abortion debate, I am definitely pro-choice. The problem with this case is that the mother is not able to make this choice. She didn't leave any papers or videos stating her feelings on this specific kind of situation. Being a mother, I would guess that if this mother knew she was carrying a healthy child, she'd want the child to develop fully and to be born. She wanted the baby she was carrying.

285

Dead pregnant woman forced to stay on life support, due to TX State law

by adamah in

there's an interesting medicolegal issue arising out of tx, a pregnant women who suffered a pulmonary embolism in november and died (when she was 14 weeks pregnant).. however, the body has been kept on life-support all this time (against her and her husband's wishes), due to an ambiguous tx state law (tex hs.

code ann.

166.049) which actually blocks the ability of the patient and family to decide:.

FlyingHighNow

That's exactly WHY no one BUT the family and husband should be allowed to decide here, since they bear the consequences of the decision. But to have the State step in and FORCE the decision upon them against their will is even more intolerable, since legislators in the State of Texas are only mucking up the situation and prolonging the pain for the survivors by forcing their religious-driven morality on others.

Is it completely religious driven? I'm asking sincerely because I haven't read the complete law. Or is this law made to preserve human life? It's not the same argument for or against abortion, though it would be a similar issue. Does the law give a time window for how pregnant the mother has to be before the law over rides the signed medical directive of the mother or the immediate family?

16

The Cult of N. Korea--Frontline's Secret State of North Korea compare to WTBTS--discussion

by FlyingHighNow in

did any of you see this program on pbs?

did you see how dangerously similar n. korea is to the wtbts?

did you notice one huge difference, that north koreans are not brainwashed like most still active jws are?

FlyingHighNow

For real? A thread like this can detract from legitimate criticisms against the WTBTS .

In what way are comparisons betweem countries like N. Korea, where the citizens are forced to worship their leader and comply, even to the death, or not comply even to the death, not legitimate? The governing body exacts similar control over Jehovah's Witnesses. No, they do not literally imprison JWs or execute them, but they do well in convincing JWs that if they are not 100% compliant to the WTBTS set of rules, they will die eternally, which is a spiritual, emotional form of terrorism and control. I mentioned other dangerous cults and fundamentalists, too. This is a comparison of similarities between the kind of control a dicatatorship exercises over a closed country and the kind of control a religious cult exercises over a closed society. They both use fear. They both expect compliance even up to death, to show loyalty. They both cut citizens/members off from the rest of the world. They both try to control what information and especially criticism citizens/members are exposed to, with a mind to control them.The both micromanage the lives of citizens/members to the point of abuse. They both strive to control even the thoughts and desires of their citizens/members.

I suggest finding the program on line and viewing it. You might be able to see that the violation of the rights of the citizens of N. Korea, though of course more violent, is very much like the WTBTS in many ways. If you were ever a JW, then you know about the constant examples from ancient Israel in how people were forced to be compliant. The WTBTS governing body cannot enforce the physical constraints and violence that ancient Israel did. Instead, they do very well with using fear of Jehovah to accomplish the same kinds of abuses of personal freedom and rights. They have set themselves up as rulers over JWs, worldwide. They destroy the lives of individuals and families, abuse children and break up families. They cause the deaths of their members, including babies and children.

16

The Cult of N. Korea--Frontline's Secret State of North Korea compare to WTBTS--discussion

by FlyingHighNow in

did any of you see this program on pbs?

did you see how dangerously similar n. korea is to the wtbts?

did you notice one huge difference, that north koreans are not brainwashed like most still active jws are?

FlyingHighNow

I'll answer your rrply, Dig, when I can get to my PC. I think you dont know the scope of the in depth look into N Koreas human rights violations that the documentary takes, up close, inside its borders. Will come back later.

16

The Cult of N. Korea--Frontline's Secret State of North Korea compare to WTBTS--discussion

by FlyingHighNow in

did any of you see this program on pbs?

did you see how dangerously similar n. korea is to the wtbts?

did you notice one huge difference, that north koreans are not brainwashed like most still active jws are?

FlyingHighNow

Did any of you see this program on PBS? Did you see how dangerously similar N. Korea is to the WTBTS? Did you notice one huge difference, that North Koreans are not brainwashed like most still active JWs are? I'm interested in your thoughts on the show. If you haven't seen it, find it and watch it, if this kind of thing interests you.

Some of my observations and thoughts:

Some things about N. Korea that struck me are the strict dress code (police harrassing woman for her attire, her angrily fighting back), cell phones that only call inside the country/ but it is forbidden to have a sim card that allows contact outside N. Korea. News, movies, TV, radio etc. from outside the country, especially S. Korea are banned, even under threat of death for breaking the rules. It is felt that exposure to pop culture from outside the country causes rebellion.

It's chilling, the similarties between N. Korea and the WTBTS. I've often said that fear can be a more effective way to control the masses. Fear of god(s) can be more effective than government or rules alone. It's one thing to fear authorities. N. Koreans live in relative fear of the authorities, but many, many of them rebel against the laws and authorities, even in the face of death. On the other hand, if you can convince people that their god will get them if they don't follow a code of conduct, it's more likely they will be compliant. * I am not an athiest and don't see that all religions are about this kind of control.* The extreme cults such as the WTBTS and some fundamentalist sects come to mind though. Kim Jong Un may not understand the misuse of religion to control people, but I'm betting that ancients knew it all too well.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZms5O-MwOU

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/14/arts/television/pbs-frontline-looks-inside-a-notoriously-closed-country.html?_r=0

Glimpses of a North Korea Seldom Seen in the West
PBS ‘Frontline’ Looks Inside a Notoriously Closed Country

PBS’s “Frontline” enjoys some morbid good timing on Tuesday night, presenting its report “Secret State of North Korea” in the wake of the execution last month of Jang Song-thaek, uncle of the North Korean dictator Kim Jong-un, and the return to the country this month of the former N.B.A. player and amateur diplomat Dennis Rodman.

Demonstrating its usual good news judgment, the program inserts a reference to Mr. Jang’s death and its implications for the stability of Mr. Kim’s regime but makes no mention of Mr. Rodman.

The focus of “Secret State” is the movement of information into, and out of, one of the world’s most sealed-off countries. Its most dramatic element are snippets of film shot inside North Korea by members of an underground network of citizen journalists organized by a Japan-based news agency.

There’s no way to judge how characteristic the images are, but there’s no denying their grim fascination. Piles of rubble, ox and hand carts and abandoned, starving children are recurring themes.
Launch media viewer
Frontline: Secret State of North Korea This PBS documentary, on Tuesday night, shows work inside the country by clandestine photographers. PBS

In an ad hoc encampment of orphans, a boy of perhaps 9 or 10 is asked by the photographer if he has thought of seeking work chopping wood. He can’t, he replies, because he’s missing an arm, cut off by a train.

Particularly gripping is a scene illustrating the rising power of private enterprise: A woman using a truck as an illegal bus fights back against a soldier who tries to stop her, asking where his stars are (to indicate his rank) and shoving him out of the way.

Around this raw reportage, the program investigates the question of whether North Korea is approaching a tipping point where the flow of information into the country could foster radical change. We’re shown DVDs and thumb drives containing movies and television shows being smuggled across the border, and North Koreans huddled in their bedrooms watching them.

Perhaps the most significant change the program reports is the explosion of cellphone ownership since these devices were reintroduced five years ago. The phones for sale can call only within North Korea but can be illegally adapted to make international calls.

The experts the program consults agree that change is taking place, but some are more optimistic than others about its pace.

“If a government is willing to kill as many people as necessary to stay in power,” says Andrei Lankov, a Russian expert on North Korea, “it usually stays in power for a very long time.”

285

Dead pregnant woman forced to stay on life support, due to TX State law

by adamah in

there's an interesting medicolegal issue arising out of tx, a pregnant women who suffered a pulmonary embolism in november and died (when she was 14 weeks pregnant).. however, the body has been kept on life-support all this time (against her and her husband's wishes), due to an ambiguous tx state law (tex hs.

code ann.

166.049) which actually blocks the ability of the patient and family to decide:.

FlyingHighNow

According to the Mayo Clinic website: http://www.mayoclinic.org/first-aid/first-aid-cpr/basics/ART-20056600

CPR can keep oxygenated blood flowing to the brain and other vital organs until more definitive medical treatment can restore a normal heart rhythm.

When the heart stops, the lack of oxygenated blood can cause brain damage in only a few minutes. A person may die within eight to 10 minutes.

With that in mind, it's doubtful the mother had been dead, without oxygen for very long before the husband found her.

Something else to think about:

Fully developed babies and children can experience a stronger Mammalian Dive Reflex.

I wonder if the fetus' heartrate slowed, similar to the mammalian dive reflex, and helped it to survive intact. The fetus is said to have a strong heartbeat now.

http://www.emergencymedicalparamedic.com/what-is-the-mammalian-diving-reflex/

2. To this day, one treatment available for neonates who have a run of SVT (which is a pre-terminal event in neonates) are dipped head first in a cold bucket of water in order to artificially stimulate the mammalian diving reflex and therefore reduce the heartrate. The mammalian diving reflex is known to reduce the heart rate by 25%.

285

Dead pregnant woman forced to stay on life support, due to TX State law

by adamah in

there's an interesting medicolegal issue arising out of tx, a pregnant women who suffered a pulmonary embolism in november and died (when she was 14 weeks pregnant).. however, the body has been kept on life-support all this time (against her and her husband's wishes), due to an ambiguous tx state law (tex hs.

code ann.

166.049) which actually blocks the ability of the patient and family to decide:.

FlyingHighNow

There is a little confusion:

Erick Munoz of Fort Wort, Texas, found his wife Marlise unconscious on the kitchen floor on November 26

Machado’s son-in-law Erick Munoz found Marlise unconscious on the kitchen floor two days before Thanksgiving.

Erick is a paramedic - as was Marlise - and immediately performed CPR, but it was no use. At 14 weeks pregnant with their second child, Marlise had been without oxygen for an hour.

‘They did a CAT scan and an EEG and there was no brain activity,’ Machado said. ‘She was clinically declared brain dead.

This is confusing because it says he found her unconcious. It doesn't say he found her dead. With CPR, performed correctly, the oxygenation and circulation of the blood through the body is accomplished. How long was she in this state before he found her and began performing CPR? Even though she didn't receive enough oxygen to keep her brain alive, it's unclear whether the fetus was deprived of oxygen and/or nutrients.

It's clear the husband knows his wife didn't want to be put on life support. It isn't clear whether he knows that his wife would have felt this way if her baby was still living inside her. I think it would be sad to grow up and begin to understand that your mother was clinically dead as you grew to viability inside her. It would also be strange to find out that your dad and grandmother fought to have your mother taken off the support. That is of course if you came out without brain damage-- if you came out healthy and whole.

It's a tough call. I wouldn't want to be kept on life support for myself. It's a different matter if there is a healthy fetus inside me that could go on to enjoy a normal life after its birth, I can't say I'd say no to life support, with that in mind. Who is to really know what this mother would say if she could speak to this specific situation? She isn't suffering. If a healthy baby comes from this, the husband and family will adjust, heal and go on to love the child. I wonder what they will do if the child is profoundly affected in a bad way.