*delete double post
OrphanCrow
JoinedPosts by OrphanCrow
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184
Outcome - Banned in Russia - Final
by OrphanCrow ini just watched the live feed from the russian court room and followed the updates on the russian exjw forum.. just waiting for confirmation from other sources...but, it looks like the final (and expected) result is:.
banned.
which means that the wts property in russia now belongs to the russian state..
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184
Outcome - Banned in Russia - Final
by OrphanCrow ini just watched the live feed from the russian court room and followed the updates on the russian exjw forum.. just waiting for confirmation from other sources...but, it looks like the final (and expected) result is:.
banned.
which means that the wts property in russia now belongs to the russian state..
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OrphanCrow
*I apologize if this double posts...
Watching the live video feed was interesting.
It was broadcast from the jw-russian org site (JW source) and the activity that was shown during the break was a sight to behold. Mark Sanderson's face must be sore from all the smiling for the JW paparazzi, posing with locals, and the level of noise was fairly high. Lots of chatting, smiling and shaking hands, half hugs, etc among the JWs. One apostate spotted - no suit and long hair - and when he got up from his seat, the grimace and obvious 'don't touch!' body language from the one JW woman he came close to was evident.*
This was in sharp contrast to the mood in the court room after the judgement was read - quiet and somber...and video feed cut.
*the behavior of the JWs towards the 'apostates' that showed up to court was discussed on the exJW/JW Russian forum a few days ago. It was reported that the obvious dislike and derision from the JW spectators towards those exJWs appearing to testify was palatable and did not go unnoticed by the Russian court officials. The JW reaction to the exJW testimony even included laughing at parts of what was being said concerning their maltreatment at the hands of the JWs/WTS
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184
Outcome - Banned in Russia - Final
by OrphanCrow ini just watched the live feed from the russian court room and followed the updates on the russian exjw forum.. just waiting for confirmation from other sources...but, it looks like the final (and expected) result is:.
banned.
which means that the wts property in russia now belongs to the russian state..
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OrphanCrow
Yes, Outlaw, it is true.
Of note is that the Russian JW lawyer tried his damndest to have the documents for the Tanarog LRO not included in this court action. That was a court case back in 2009 when Tanarog was declared 'extremist' and shut down.
This is part of what the Tanarog ruling dealt with:
The Regional Court drew the following conclusion from the testimony before it:
“The testimony ... objectively confirms the arguments in the application regarding minor children being lured into the organisation’s activity, including into the preaching activity, as small or minor children are being obliged, together with their parents, regardless of weather or time of year, to go on the streets and to apartments with the goal of distributing literature, and to be present for long periods of time at discussions at meetings ...
The circumstances established during the trial testify to the violation by the religious organisation and its members of the provisions of the Convention on the Rights of the Child, the Russian Constitution, and the Russian Family Code, as they involve very young children in the religious organisation without the consent of the other parent, who has equal rights and duties in the upbringing of the children, and do not consider the opinion and interests of the children.
The actions of the members of the Taganrog LRO constitute a direct violation of the provisions of Article 31 of the Convention on the Rights of the Child, which establishes that the States Parties recognise the right of the child to rest and leisure, to engage in play and recreational activities appropriate to the age of the child, and to participate freely in cultural life and the arts.
The testimony of the witnesses who are members of the organisation, to the effect that they visit the park with their children, take trips to the zoo, and spend time with their children in nature, does not attest to the parents’ ensuring conditions for the full and comprehensive development of the children, since all these activities only take place with the participation of other members of the organisation. Not one of the witnesses demonstrated that their children actively participate in sports or in any type of sports leagues, are receiving a musical education, or are interested in and attending hobby groups of any kind, all of which are necessary for a comprehensive development of personality, abilities, and interests.”So, the Russian courts had already determined that the JW religion violates the rights of the child. The Tanalog hearing also addressed the harmful effects of shunning on families and individuals and concluded that:
Finally, the Regional Court considered it established that the Taganrog LRO “had encroached on the personality, rights and freedoms of citizens”. That charge had two facets: on the one hand, the Taganrog LRO “determined how the believers’ free time [was to be] spent and forbade them to celebrate holidays and birthdays”, and on the other hand, the members of the LRO preached at homes without an invitation, “without giving heed to the opinion of persons whom they visited and with whose private life they interfered”.
As much as the JWs believe that their "rights" have been trampled on, the Russian courts had already established that the JW religion does not respect the rights of children or the rights of others.
*sorry - I keep losing my post - the editing is a bit strange...
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184
Outcome - Banned in Russia - Final
by OrphanCrow ini just watched the live feed from the russian court room and followed the updates on the russian exjw forum.. just waiting for confirmation from other sources...but, it looks like the final (and expected) result is:.
banned.
which means that the wts property in russia now belongs to the russian state..
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OrphanCrow
I just watched the live feed from the Russian court room and followed the updates on the Russian exJW forum.
Just waiting for confirmation from other sources...but, it looks like the final (and expected) result is:
Banned.
Which means that the WTS property in Russia now belongs to the Russian State.
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21
JW news release and deception - The "High-Profile Case" in Russia
by jwleaks ini found this interesting bit of news release propaganda by the jws on their website dated april 5, 2017.. "russia's supreme court begins high-profile case against jehovah's witnesses".
https://www.jw.org/en/news/releases/by-region/russia/supreme-court-begins-case-against-jehovahs-witnesses/.
my interest was piqued by the jw claim that the court hearing is a "high-profile case".
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OrphanCrow
Oh wow. That is a very misleading use of imagery. The first image certainly gives the viewer the impression that the court is being held in a far more pompous place than the second shows.
Apparently, it isn't just the interior shots that have been stages/rigged. It appears like the numbers of Russian JWs, that were reported as showing up in support on the first day of the hearing, have been exposed as being the result of trickery and deception.
The Moscow Times reports on the "phony JWs" but they attribute it to an attempt by the State TV to present this sect as more scary than it is. Strangely, the jw media reports the large gathering as a peaceful sign that they are not 'extremist'.
I have my own thoughts as to what happened in front of the Supreme Court in Moscow that day, and why so many people were tricked, and by whom...this is from the article and it makes me to wonder who set the fake JWs up:
Russia’s Phony Jehovah’s Witnesses
How state television framed a bunch of university students to make this Christian group seem extra scary.
When Jehovah's Witnesses arrived at the Russian Supreme Court on Wednesday morning, crowds lined the streets. Dozens of people waited in the cold for hours, hoping for a chance to get into the courtroom. State television described the crowds as supporters of the Jehovah's Witnesses, and one outlet claimed the group often targeted Russia's youth as potential converts.
But the crowd hadn't come to fight for Russia's religious freedom. Most of the people lined up were students from Moscow State Linguistic University, and they'd been promised a field trip, where they expected to learn about the Russian court system, sitting in on a real trial.
Students Kira and Alina (not their real names) said they were looking forward to being inside the court. “When else would I get an opportunity to see justice in action?” Kira told The Moscow Times.
Both women had been invited a few days earlier, when a man they'd never seen before interrupted a lecture to invite students to the trial.
The man said he needed 30 people from the department to show up outside the Supreme Court, early in the morning. He warned students to dress “nicely,” not to take pictures in court, not to post anything on social networks, and not to talk to the press.
“It sounded a bit bizarre,” admitted Ruslan (not his real name), another student who agreed to attend the hearing.
“In the end, we figured that it would normal, for this kind of thing,” Alina explained.
The JW spokesmen said they didn't know why so many students showed up. He knew nothing:
The students arrived at the courthouse early the next morning, only to find themselves waiting in line with dozens of students from other departments, as well as some older visitors. They'd been told to arrive at 8:00 a.m., though the hearing didn't start until 10:00 a.m.
“We were baffled,” Kira said.
Tempers frayed when the crowd was told that the courtroom was already full, before the hearing even started.
“One of our professors went with us. He was appalled, too. He didn't know it would turn out the way it did,” Kira said. Cold and disappointed, the students left and went on with their day, only to discover later in the afternoon that they'd actually made headlines.
The state-run news agency RIA Novosti described the students as “a huge line of Jehovah's Witnesses.”
The television network NTV ran a similar story, as did Channel 5, even including close-ups of the students' faces.
None of the journalists had talked to them in person, the students said.
Instructed not to give interviews, they had ignored questions from Russia's state-funded Channel 5. “[The correspondents] were asking us whether we would comment,” Alina told The Moscow Times. “We kept silent and just turned away.”
“I saw my face in a close-up shot on Channel 5,” said Eldar (not his real name), an Azeri student who also went to the court. “I felt so much rage — being called something I am not!”The JW spokesperson claimed no knowledge of who the students were or why they were there:
An official spokesperson for the Jehovah's Witnesses also confirmed that a large number of those waiting outside the Supreme Court had not been members of their organization.
Yaroslav Sivulsky, a spokesperson for Jehovah's Witnesses in Russia, said the crowd size had surprised him. “Some of our supporters were outside, but of course the whole crowd couldn't come in. The courtroom was full,” he said. “We didn't know who they were, but later someone told me that they had come from a university.”The incident left many of the students confused and angry.
“It still isn't clear why someone needed to gather us in front of the court,” Ivan said. “The dean of our faculty is surprised and appalled. He told me that the university rector asked him to send students to the court for educational purposes.”
Ivan also stressed that Moscow State Linguistic University has never been involved in politics, explaining that students have never been forced to attend patriotic or pro-Kremlin events, and — unlike many other universities across the country — no faculty reprimanded students for attending anti-corruption rallies on March 26.
The university's students have their own theories about why they were sent to the courthouse. “Maybe they wanted us to occupy seats in the courtroom in order [to stop] actual supporters from getting in,” Alina suggested.“Maybe they wanted us to occupy seats in the courtroom in order [to stop] actual supporters from getting in,”.....
Maybe.
Or maybe not.
If this did indeed happen, that university students and others, were tricked into attending the court hearing, those photos that the JW media releases stories have included, showing "so many Russian JWs" showing up in support outside the Moscow courthouse, lining up early, peacefully assembling, quietly....are also misleading.
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43
Who is B.W. Schulz? Anyone know?
by ILoveTTATT2 ini am writing an article on whether c.t.
russell was a mason.
i am of the opinion that he was not, given the evidence.. i just bought b.w.
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OrphanCrow
A thread from 3 years ago that discusses the book:
https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/274505/new-book-intro-essay
A blog written by author(s):
http://truthhistory.blogspot.ca/2014/02/final-draft-title-page-copyright-page.html
About the Authors
Bruce W. Schulz teaches writing, history, and literature. He is the lead author and general editor of this series.
Rachael de Vienne raises children and goats. She teaches literature and history to gifted and talented students. -
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New "paradise" video preview? "Will you be there?"
by stuckinarut2 inmy wife (unstuck) just saw a new 2-3 min video in her ex jw facebook feed, depicting a "paradise" scene preview.. it was complete with aerial shots and slow motion montages, with moving music.. scriptures were quoted across the screen, such as rev 21:3,4. i shazamed the music, and it came from another "worldly" album called "world of dreams.future world music" (you should see the song titles from that album!).
is it an official wt video, or some private persons production?.
if it is official, they seem to have once again resorted to desperate emotional manipulation tactics..... anyone else know?
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Single Sisters Over A Certain Age Group Getting A Bad Rap
by HiddlesWife ini'm new here; one of my relatives was a member on this forum a few years ago and told me about it.
anyways, as a sister who has been in the org since childhood and now in her late 40's (plus as a woman of color), i have noticed that a number of brothers have an ageist attitude.
they are very accepting of young women under 26 and rejecting women over that age, particularly those in their 30's and over.. is this an unspoken mindset from wthq (specifically from bethel), or is it that quite a number of males (sorry, i'm not sexist here) have this type of mentality?
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OrphanCrow
TD: A great many men don't seem to be able to look in the mirror and see themselves as the rest of the world sees them. I don't know why exactly, but I would bet that it's been studied.
Yes, it has.
It is tied up with the politics of "the gaze". Basically, the position of power owns the gaze and the powerless are the objects of the gaze.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaze
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Disfellowshipping decision to go before Canadian Supreme Court
by Simon inhigh court will examine whether judicial review applies to membership decisions made by religious groups.
the supreme court of canada has agreed to hear an appeal involving a calgary man who was kicked out of his jehovah's witness church.. randy wall, a real estate agent was "disfellowshipped" from the highwood congregation for being drunk on two occasions and allegedly verbally abusing his wife.. as a result, he says his clients refused to do further business with him, so he argued his property and civil rights were affected.. after losing three internal church appeals of his expulsion, wall made an application with the court of queen's bench in calgary which ordered a hearing to first determine if there was jurisdiction for the court to hear the application.. decisions and appeals.
a judge decided the superior court did have jurisdiction to hear the application.. the church then appealed wall's decision to the alberta court of appeal, which upheld the court of queen's bench, affirming the court has jurisdiction to hear the matter.. one of the three appeal court judges dissented — arguing that congregations are private organizations akin to bridge clubs, whose decisions "are not enforceable promises and have limited, if any, impact outside its small circle.".
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OrphanCrow
RO: What Watchtower is appealing is if a secular court has the right to even hear the case in the first. place.
That is correct.
From the article:
The Supreme Court will determine whether the Court of Queen's Bench has jurisdiction to decide on the matter of Wall's expulsion from the church.
What the Supreme Court will be determining is if secular law can be brought to bear in matters of religious law.
For anyone not familiar with Canadian law, "the Court of Queen's Bench is the Superior Trial Court for the Province, hearing trials in civil and criminal matters and appeals from decisions of the Provincial Court." Queen's Bench courts have federally appointed judges and are governed by federal law.
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Disfellowshipping decision to go before Canadian Supreme Court
by Simon inhigh court will examine whether judicial review applies to membership decisions made by religious groups.
the supreme court of canada has agreed to hear an appeal involving a calgary man who was kicked out of his jehovah's witness church.. randy wall, a real estate agent was "disfellowshipped" from the highwood congregation for being drunk on two occasions and allegedly verbally abusing his wife.. as a result, he says his clients refused to do further business with him, so he argued his property and civil rights were affected.. after losing three internal church appeals of his expulsion, wall made an application with the court of queen's bench in calgary which ordered a hearing to first determine if there was jurisdiction for the court to hear the application.. decisions and appeals.
a judge decided the superior court did have jurisdiction to hear the application.. the church then appealed wall's decision to the alberta court of appeal, which upheld the court of queen's bench, affirming the court has jurisdiction to hear the matter.. one of the three appeal court judges dissented — arguing that congregations are private organizations akin to bridge clubs, whose decisions "are not enforceable promises and have limited, if any, impact outside its small circle.".
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OrphanCrow
sir82: So are JWs going to be encouraged to write letters to Trudeau about this case?
Lol! Maybe there should be some letter writing going on.
This case has the potential to fight the very thing that causes the shunning to begin with. The internal judicial system of the JWs. And the Supreme Court of Canada is nothing to sneeze at - that is where many religious freedoms have been set in the past. It is ironic, now, that the "Champions of Freedom" are now being called out on whether or not they grant the same freedoms to their members.
Please correct me if I am wrong, but the way I read it, what is going to be at question, is whether or not the judicial process of the JWs respects the rights of individuals under Section 7-14 Legal Rights of the Canadian Constitution.
In other words, did the JC follow correct legal procedure? Was Randy given his full legal rights during that process?
I think it is quite clear that one essential right is always denied a person during those proceedings and that is the "right of representation".
The first argument is not concerning what he was accused of doing, or even what the results of the punishment was, it is whether or not the process was fair and constitutional.
However, where those issues may come up is in questioning whether or not the "punishment fit the crime", so to speak. That will be a difficult one if it needs to be addressed, considering that the WT law equates disfellowshipping with stoning to death - the harshest punishment of all. Seems a bit over the top to treat someone who was accused of what Randy was, in the same manner as you would a murderer.
So, for anyone interested in doing something about shunning, this case is critical because it strikes at the heart of where shunning comes from. The JWs' judicial system itself.