Posts by OrphanCrow

5

Is the Watch Tower giving out loans?

by The Poetry Of Reality in

i originally posted this on the reddit exjw subreddit on 7 feb 2017. i think it's worth revisiting.

http://registerguard.com/rg/news/local/35255519-75/land-management-division-recommends-approval-of-gimpl-hill-subdivision.html.csp.

in 2008, they borrowed $1.87 million from the watch tower bible and tract society of pennsylvania, the legal arm of the jehovah’s witnesses group, to start the project.

OrphanCrow

Doing some more digging...reading...

Yes. Both Wesley and Juanita died after 2007.

Wesley died in 2010 at the age of 96. His wife, Juanita, died in 2012 at the age of 94.

Dr. Wesley H. Haffner of Albany, formerly of Lane County, died Feb. 17 of age-related causes. He was 96. A private family service is planned.
He was born Sept. 4, 1913, in Clinton, Mo., to Gottfried and Katherine E. Ehrlich Haffner. He married Juanita Sperling July 18, 1939, in Boise.
He was a company doctor in Westfir from 1941 to 1945, worked at the Medical Dental Clinic from 1947 to 1960, and at Westmoreland Medical Dental from 1960 to 1979.
Survivors include his wife; three daughters, Carolyn Cahors of Albany, Janet Marie of La Grande and Lisa Johnson of Boring; three sons, Dr. David Haffner of Albany, Mark Haffner of Providence, R.I., and Roger Haffner of Corvallis; and 13 grandchildren and four great-grandchildren.

Yes. The land was likely gifted to the WTS upon the death of the two very elderly owners.

David Haffner and Lisa Johnson were the two who were "unable to make their loan payments" and then the WTS turned around and "sold their security" to someone else. A Roy Carver. Who still owns the Vineyards on Gimpl Hill Road.

Strange. Something fishy. Smells funny.

Who was really behind the court actions and applications in 2007 to get the land subdivided? The actual owners were very elderly and well past the age of being able to bring that type of action through the courts at that time. Old Doctor Wesley was 93 in 2007 and living in a nursing home. Was it their two children, David and Lisa? And who were they? What connection to the WTS did they have?

5

Is the Watch Tower giving out loans?

by The Poetry Of Reality in

i originally posted this on the reddit exjw subreddit on 7 feb 2017. i think it's worth revisiting.

http://registerguard.com/rg/news/local/35255519-75/land-management-division-recommends-approval-of-gimpl-hill-subdivision.html.csp.

in 2008, they borrowed $1.87 million from the watch tower bible and tract society of pennsylvania, the legal arm of the jehovah’s witnesses group, to start the project.

OrphanCrow

I found some background on the property:

owners - Wesley H. Haffner Revocable Living Trust & Juanita R. Haffner Revocable Living Trust

And the 2007 court order allowing subdivison of the property:

http://www.courts.oregon.gov/Lane/docs/haffnervlanecounty.pdf

StarTrekAngel: What could the WT have to do in funding residential development?

I wonder if the WTS was actually funding the property development or if the property was being held in trust for the WTS. Could the land have been willed or given to the WTS in some way through the Haffner's Revocable Living Trusts? Such that the WTS was actually the owners of the property at the time that they were named as "funding" the development?

* adding more thoughts:

The land ended up being divided up into 9 parcels of land that sold for around 200-250,000 each. Which would make the total sale of all the land parcels right up there around the same as the 'loan" from the Watchtower was claimed to be. I think the "loan" is just the value of the property and the WTS was willed or given the land by the Haffners. This looks like it could be a scheme to transform an estate or trust, that is a land holding, into a cash amount for the WTS.

7

Position on blood idolatrous?

by Jehovah lol in

i just had this thought in my other thread.. jehovah witnesses refuse blood transfusions because they believe blood to be the sacred symbol of life.

that's the primary reason, the medical justifications are simply ad hoc excuses.

couldn't it be said that their willingness to give their lives for the sanctity of the symbol of life is idolatrous?

OrphanCrow

steve2: Cold Steel, "autologous" blood transfusions (i.e., using one's own blood) are forbidden on the grounds that once blood leaves the body it is not to be stored but dispensed with.

Yeah, but if that blood comes from a cow, it's okay to store it and use it later.

Cow's blood is fine. Drain blood from a cow (a dead cow), store it, chill it, process it...and that is okay to pump into your veins.

And so is expired human blood.

But, the WTS/Org says "no" to storing your own blood and using it.

Unless you are a cow.

28

JW Lawyers and Heavyweights lying in court.

by freddo in

jw
friends

in a recent canadian case i've seen (on line video in threads on here) the wt lawyer says that disfellowshipping isn't actual shunning but only a cutting off of spiritual association.

but what case is it and is there a transcript available on line?.

any other "good" examples from the point of view that it proves wt speak out of both sides of their mouths?.

OrphanCrow

waton: I can see where his description of post-disfellowshippings/DAs situations could apply in a close knit family, with a minor living at home

Well it obviously didn't apply to Randy's family.

If you read the background of this case, you will find that the Wall family was under pressure from the elders to force their disfellowshipped 15 year old daughter out of their home. She was a minor and the elders wanted her to be homeless and parentless

65

What is the benifits to living forever?

by Jayk in

can anyone give me a valid reason for it?

growing old is a drag.

the witnesses idea of ever lasting life, that you will come back to your most youthful state is such a bs answer..

OrphanCrow

Uh.

If we are able to report to the grammar police now, I would like to lodge a complaint.

The title of this thread. It makes my teeth hurt.

"What is the benifits to living forever?"

What are the benefits of living forever?

Use "are" when you are speaking of more than one thing - "is" is to be used when the subject is singular. Benefits is plural (the "s" on the end is a clue). And, please, spell benefits correctly. With two "e's" and only one "i".

And "of" sounds better than "to". "Of" denotes something derived from. "To" denotes direction.

Thank you.

28

JW Lawyers and Heavyweights lying in court.

by freddo in

jw
friends

in a recent canadian case i've seen (on line video in threads on here) the wt lawyer says that disfellowshipping isn't actual shunning but only a cutting off of spiritual association.

but what case is it and is there a transcript available on line?.

any other "good" examples from the point of view that it proves wt speak out of both sides of their mouths?.

OrphanCrow

saename: Is the Supreme Court even aware that the lawyer in defense of the JW congregation lied during the hearing?

Oh, I suspect the judges know that.

We will know more when the judgement comes down

I should think that it would be in the best interest of Randy Wall to inform the court of David's dishonesty.

And I suspect that will happen when and if the case gets turned back to the Alberta courts. Keep in mind that this Supreme Court hearing is just to determine if Randy's case will be heard in Alberta

If the Supreme Court overturns the WTS' appeal, I think that Randy and his team have a whole lot in their arsenal that will come out in the lower court

23

If we just suddenly start talking to DFed people again and use the Canada court video as our argument, what would happen?

by Isambard Crater in

the jw lawyer clearly stated that disfellowshipping only applies to spiritual association, but everyday family contact is ok..

OrphanCrow

scratchme: I saw the video, and the commentary of that person towards the former JW is rather ignorant and as judgmental as the WT is. Who is she to judge?

I agree. Totally.

Not only is she ignorant about Mr. Wall's alleged behavior, she is also pretty ignorant about what the case is actually about. Typically, she just comes to her own conclusions about what the case entails and then trots off to make her own, self-centered report about what was said in court by Gnam.

She made this court case into being about her and her concerns rather than about what this court case really is addressing - the lack of natural justice and the lack of procedural fairness in the WT's judicial system.

28

JW Lawyers and Heavyweights lying in court.

by freddo in

jw
friends

in a recent canadian case i've seen (on line video in threads on here) the wt lawyer says that disfellowshipping isn't actual shunning but only a cutting off of spiritual association.

but what case is it and is there a transcript available on line?.

any other "good" examples from the point of view that it proves wt speak out of both sides of their mouths?.

OrphanCrow

How far has this case proceeded?

The Supreme Court has heard an appeal of a case that originated in an Alberta court.

The WTS has lodged the appeal after the Alberta Court of Appeal ruled that R. Wall could have his case heard by the Alberta Court.

We are waiting for the judgement from the Supreme Court to find out if the case will be heard in Alberta. Judgement hasn't been published yet.

where would I find in writing the statement of the WT lawyer

If you are looking for what the lawyer said during the hearing (on the video posted), I don't think you will find it in writing. I believe you have to wait until the transcript is released and to the best of my knowledge, that hasn't happened yet.

28

JW Lawyers and Heavyweights lying in court.

by freddo in

jw
friends

in a recent canadian case i've seen (on line video in threads on here) the wt lawyer says that disfellowshipping isn't actual shunning but only a cutting off of spiritual association.

but what case is it and is there a transcript available on line?.

any other "good" examples from the point of view that it proves wt speak out of both sides of their mouths?.

OrphanCrow

freddo: In a recent Canadian case I've seen (on line video in threads on here) the WT lawyer says that disfellowshipping isn't actual shunning but only a cutting off of spiritual association.
But what case is it and is there a transcript available on line?

Supreme Court of Canada

Judicial Committee of the Highwood Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses (Vaughn Lee - Chairman and Elders James Scott Lang and Joe Gurney) and Highwood Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses v. Randy Wall

Factums on appeal:

http://www.scc-csc.ca/case-dossier/info/af-ma-eng.aspx?cas=37273

23

If we just suddenly start talking to DFed people again and use the Canada court video as our argument, what would happen?

by Isambard Crater in

the jw lawyer clearly stated that disfellowshipping only applies to spiritual association, but everyday family contact is ok..

OrphanCrow

FallGuy: Is that lawyer confirmed as being a JW, and not just a "hired hand?" (just to clarify)

David Guan is a Jehovah's Witness (he has been identified as an elder but I am not sure about that - but, of course he is...a special man like that would have some sort of authoritative position in his congregation)

Gnam is a partner in W Glen How and Associates.

W Glen How and Associates has the exact same address as the Canadian Branch office.