Posts by OrphanCrow

29

Congregation dwindles

by wannaexit in

jw
friends

i think we are going to be seeing lots more of this stuff.

.

http://www.capjournal.com/news/pierre-jehovah-s-witnesses-put-up-smaller-kingdom-hall-to/article_e05d9c36-d8b9-11e7-acb3-9f63fb65c896.html.

OrphanCrow

sfb: Only 330 JWs in the state of South Dakota? Doubtful

Why is that doubtful, SFB? Please explain why you think that. Are you familiar with South Dakota?

34

CT Russell, he loved and supported genocidal militants.

by lastmanstanding in

i have the first volumes of the watchtower from the 1800's to the 1900's.. .

i will highlight vol.

2 january 15, 1892 to help the reader understand the truth regarding russell and his supposed appointment as, what the watchtower this year referred to, "he certainly was that minister" ...making vague reference to his being called "the laodicean minister" (found on his tombstone).

OrphanCrow

Charles Russell commended the German Bible Students for serving in the German army.

The German Watchtowers published a far different message than the British and American Watchtowers:

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/exjehovahswitnessforum/german-bible-students-in-world-war-one-t25557.html#.VYa6bflVikp

6

Court hearing of official seizure request of JW Russian property

by Listener in

i found this on facebook -.

russian automatic translation for english.attempt to seize foreign property by russian authoritiesdecember 4, 2017on december 7, 2017, at 14:00, the sestroretsky district court of st. petersburg will begin consideration of a lawsuit filed by the prosecutor's office aimed at removing a large real estate complex in st. petersburg from the "watchtower society, bibles and treatises of pennsylvania" foreign organization.we are talking about 14 buildings with an area of 33 thousand square meters, located on 10 hectares of landscaped territory in the village of solnechnoye resort area of st.

petersburg.

OrphanCrow

Huh.

Now, when property is the concern, the Watchtower Society becomes a "foreign association" that has been doing business in Russia.

Did you notice that the word "religion" isn't used even once in the above report?

jwleaks: I believe this land was given to Watchtower and the JWs at no cost by the township

I thought the land was purchased. For a nominal amount (a symbolic fee is how this article describes the purchase price).

A comment from the European exJW forum concerning the purchase price:

1. The cost of buying the former pioneer camp
was 135,000,000 rubles.
Yes, it was a time when everything was badly depreciated, but even so, the coordinator of the Bethel in Selters, the German Willie Paul, skillfully traded with the seller, with a smile, but bent his line unrealistically
until he achieved his goal .
Yet this amount was not symbolic.

The construction of the site is described here:

JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES HAVE SETTLED IN THE SUBURBS OF SAINT PETERSBURG
Michael Jackson donated 1.5 million dollars to his Russian brothers and sisters.
by Oleg Silin
Nezavisimaia gazeta, 2 July 1997
In the suburbs of St. Petersburg in Solnechny village Russia's first administrative center of the Christian religious organization "Jehovah's Witnesses" has opened. The vast scope of this action is demonstrated in the fact that more than 2,000 delegates and guests from 44 countries attended this event.
The Jehovah's Witnesses religious association arose in the second half of the nineteenth century in the USA. At present this organization number more than five million adherents. In our country is received official registration in 1991. Before that its activity was banned "because of its antisoviet tendencies." But as the members of the association emphasize, to this day the Jehovah's Witnesses do not know what the government actually accused them of.
Whatever may be the case, the most widely varying rumors circulated, even including the claim that "members of the sect brutally murder their children, sacrificing them, and they even commit suicide themselves." "In fact," the director of the Russian administrative center, Vasily Kalin, declared at a press conference, "Witnesses do not hold radical views and they do not advocate practices that are different from what society recognizes as normal conduct. This is what principally distinguishes us from cults and sects." In his words, the basic goal of the Jehovah's Witnesses is the study of the Bible. They give chief honor to God the Father, whom the Bible calls Jehovah, and they do not believe in the immortality of the soul.
More than 600 volunteers participated in the construction of the center in Solnechny village over the four and a half years it took. More than half of them were Russians and people from the republics of the former USSR. The rest came from Denmark, USA, Switzerland, Chile, Finland, Australia, and elsewhere. They deserve their due: they worked completely without pay and they center was built to European standards. In place of ruins of the remains of a Pioneer summer camp build in the 1960s they erected a four storey building complex equipped with state of the art technology, including a laundry and dry cleaners, a small furniture factory and clinic, cafeteria with its own bakery and kitchen, and seven residential blocks. At present about 300 Jehovah's Witnesses live and work in the administrative center.
As Vasily Kalin emphasizes, because the construction was done by their own efforts, including their own concrete factory, and much of the equipment and plumbing was a gift from the Scandanavian firm the construction cost extremely little.
However, justice requires that we note that evidently no small part was played by the contributions of well to do Jehovah's Witnesses. One of them alone, Michael Jackson, who came from a family of Witnesses, is said to have donated his Russian brothers and sisters one and a half million dollars.

5

Is the Watch Tower giving out loans?

by The Poetry Of Reality in

i originally posted this on the reddit exjw subreddit on 7 feb 2017. i think it's worth revisiting.

http://registerguard.com/rg/news/local/35255519-75/land-management-division-recommends-approval-of-gimpl-hill-subdivision.html.csp.

in 2008, they borrowed $1.87 million from the watch tower bible and tract society of pennsylvania, the legal arm of the jehovah’s witnesses group, to start the project.

OrphanCrow

This gets even more interesting.

The land in question fell under Measure 37 and Measure 49 in Oregon

http://www.oregon.gov/LCD/MEASURE49/docs/finals/e129699_haffner_lane.pdf

Apparently, these two land measures were controversial land acts that affected large swathes of land in Oregon. Property values were affected - the owners of land in question could ask for compensation from the State for not being able to subdivide their land or, in lieu of a cash settlement, the State could grant the owner the right to subdivide land that was previously protected.

The Haffner land was one of those blocks of land that fell under those measures but those measures affected many land owners.

Something else that is interesting. According to the document I linked to above, Roy Carver was involved in this land deal long before the WTS "sold", to Carver, their security in the "loan" that they had "given" to Haffner and Johnson.

I am thinking that the land in question was important to the WTS for reasons that go beyond just that land parcel itself. The measures that were brought into play in order to subdivide this land (owned by two frail, elderly people in their 80s/90s) could very well have been important for other land parcels that the WTS has interest in as well.

I am thinking that this "loan" that the WTS forked out (sort of) had to do with supporting first, Measure 37 and then later, Measure 49 - under which the loss that the Haffner were claiming was close to half a million dollars which allowed them to claim a subdivision in lieu of a cash payout. Ten lots were allowed which gave them 9 lots for sale (the original home was on one lot which had been built in 1966 - building permit history is someplace online and I forgot to save it)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oregon_Ballot_Measures_37_(2004)_and_49_(2007)

And, who is this Roy Carver that was involved in this affair from the beginning - he was named as agent for the Haffners in 2007 - and he was the one who ended up with the land (the security "sold" to him by the the WTS and the land "turned over" to him by the children of the deceased Haffner couple) which then was turned into the "Vineyards on Gimpl Hill Road"?

And for some more background on the Measure 49, I found the appraisers CV online in which he describes his role in Measure 49 (he appraised the Haffner land):

Mr. Thompson is a specialist in Pacific
Northwest Coast property valuations. In 2009 Mr. Thompson was part of a team that
obtained the first Measure 49 approval in the state of Oregon. Subsequently, three other
Measure 49 approvals were approved based on the appraisal analysis prepared by Mr.
Thompson. There were more than 7,000 Measure 49 claims issued to the State of Oregon,
and less than 10 of these were approved. Measure 49 was a tax measure that allowed land
owner’s to develop residential lots on properties that were zoned F-1, F2 (farm forest) and
EFU (exclusive farm use) land if it could be proven that at some point in the past, the
historical zoning allowed such a use. In Lane County, most property was un-zoned until Goal
4. This land use was enacted in 1974. The model conceived by Mr. Thompson was based
on performing a retroactive appraisal one year prior to this date, and one year after. The
value difference (loss in value as a result of zoning enactment) was updated thru time by the
Treasury bill rate, was offset by the amount of taxes paid compared to the amount that would
have been owed assuming residential zoning, and then compared to the value today,
assuming the property could be developed into a single family residential subdivision with a
maximum of 10 lots (Measure 49 capped the number of lots on a single contiguous land
parcel at 10 lots). If the updated damages over time were sufficient, the measure allowed for
the development of a maximum of 10 new residential lots.

In among all the players and characters involved in this land parcel deal, there must be JWs floating around. JWs involved in real estate and concerned with land values in Oregon. Who are the JWs who have real estate concerns in Oregon?

5

Is the Watch Tower giving out loans?

by The Poetry Of Reality in

i originally posted this on the reddit exjw subreddit on 7 feb 2017. i think it's worth revisiting.

http://registerguard.com/rg/news/local/35255519-75/land-management-division-recommends-approval-of-gimpl-hill-subdivision.html.csp.

in 2008, they borrowed $1.87 million from the watch tower bible and tract society of pennsylvania, the legal arm of the jehovah’s witnesses group, to start the project.

OrphanCrow

Doing some more digging...reading...

Yes. Both Wesley and Juanita died after 2007.

Wesley died in 2010 at the age of 96. His wife, Juanita, died in 2012 at the age of 94.

Dr. Wesley H. Haffner of Albany, formerly of Lane County, died Feb. 17 of age-related causes. He was 96. A private family service is planned.
He was born Sept. 4, 1913, in Clinton, Mo., to Gottfried and Katherine E. Ehrlich Haffner. He married Juanita Sperling July 18, 1939, in Boise.
He was a company doctor in Westfir from 1941 to 1945, worked at the Medical Dental Clinic from 1947 to 1960, and at Westmoreland Medical Dental from 1960 to 1979.
Survivors include his wife; three daughters, Carolyn Cahors of Albany, Janet Marie of La Grande and Lisa Johnson of Boring; three sons, Dr. David Haffner of Albany, Mark Haffner of Providence, R.I., and Roger Haffner of Corvallis; and 13 grandchildren and four great-grandchildren.

Yes. The land was likely gifted to the WTS upon the death of the two very elderly owners.

David Haffner and Lisa Johnson were the two who were "unable to make their loan payments" and then the WTS turned around and "sold their security" to someone else. A Roy Carver. Who still owns the Vineyards on Gimpl Hill Road.

Strange. Something fishy. Smells funny.

Who was really behind the court actions and applications in 2007 to get the land subdivided? The actual owners were very elderly and well past the age of being able to bring that type of action through the courts at that time. Old Doctor Wesley was 93 in 2007 and living in a nursing home. Was it their two children, David and Lisa? And who were they? What connection to the WTS did they have?

5

Is the Watch Tower giving out loans?

by The Poetry Of Reality in

i originally posted this on the reddit exjw subreddit on 7 feb 2017. i think it's worth revisiting.

http://registerguard.com/rg/news/local/35255519-75/land-management-division-recommends-approval-of-gimpl-hill-subdivision.html.csp.

in 2008, they borrowed $1.87 million from the watch tower bible and tract society of pennsylvania, the legal arm of the jehovah’s witnesses group, to start the project.

OrphanCrow

I found some background on the property:

owners - Wesley H. Haffner Revocable Living Trust & Juanita R. Haffner Revocable Living Trust

And the 2007 court order allowing subdivison of the property:

http://www.courts.oregon.gov/Lane/docs/haffnervlanecounty.pdf

StarTrekAngel: What could the WT have to do in funding residential development?

I wonder if the WTS was actually funding the property development or if the property was being held in trust for the WTS. Could the land have been willed or given to the WTS in some way through the Haffner's Revocable Living Trusts? Such that the WTS was actually the owners of the property at the time that they were named as "funding" the development?

* adding more thoughts:

The land ended up being divided up into 9 parcels of land that sold for around 200-250,000 each. Which would make the total sale of all the land parcels right up there around the same as the 'loan" from the Watchtower was claimed to be. I think the "loan" is just the value of the property and the WTS was willed or given the land by the Haffners. This looks like it could be a scheme to transform an estate or trust, that is a land holding, into a cash amount for the WTS.

7

Position on blood idolatrous?

by Jehovah lol in

i just had this thought in my other thread.. jehovah witnesses refuse blood transfusions because they believe blood to be the sacred symbol of life.

that's the primary reason, the medical justifications are simply ad hoc excuses.

couldn't it be said that their willingness to give their lives for the sanctity of the symbol of life is idolatrous?

OrphanCrow

steve2: Cold Steel, "autologous" blood transfusions (i.e., using one's own blood) are forbidden on the grounds that once blood leaves the body it is not to be stored but dispensed with.

Yeah, but if that blood comes from a cow, it's okay to store it and use it later.

Cow's blood is fine. Drain blood from a cow (a dead cow), store it, chill it, process it...and that is okay to pump into your veins.

And so is expired human blood.

But, the WTS/Org says "no" to storing your own blood and using it.

Unless you are a cow.

28

JW Lawyers and Heavyweights lying in court.

by freddo in

jw
friends

in a recent canadian case i've seen (on line video in threads on here) the wt lawyer says that disfellowshipping isn't actual shunning but only a cutting off of spiritual association.

but what case is it and is there a transcript available on line?.

any other "good" examples from the point of view that it proves wt speak out of both sides of their mouths?.

OrphanCrow

waton: I can see where his description of post-disfellowshippings/DAs situations could apply in a close knit family, with a minor living at home

Well it obviously didn't apply to Randy's family.

If you read the background of this case, you will find that the Wall family was under pressure from the elders to force their disfellowshipped 15 year old daughter out of their home. She was a minor and the elders wanted her to be homeless and parentless

65

What is the benifits to living forever?

by Jayk in

can anyone give me a valid reason for it?

growing old is a drag.

the witnesses idea of ever lasting life, that you will come back to your most youthful state is such a bs answer..

OrphanCrow

Uh.

If we are able to report to the grammar police now, I would like to lodge a complaint.

The title of this thread. It makes my teeth hurt.

"What is the benifits to living forever?"

What are the benefits of living forever?

Use "are" when you are speaking of more than one thing - "is" is to be used when the subject is singular. Benefits is plural (the "s" on the end is a clue). And, please, spell benefits correctly. With two "e's" and only one "i".

And "of" sounds better than "to". "Of" denotes something derived from. "To" denotes direction.

Thank you.

28

JW Lawyers and Heavyweights lying in court.

by freddo in

jw
friends

in a recent canadian case i've seen (on line video in threads on here) the wt lawyer says that disfellowshipping isn't actual shunning but only a cutting off of spiritual association.

but what case is it and is there a transcript available on line?.

any other "good" examples from the point of view that it proves wt speak out of both sides of their mouths?.

OrphanCrow

saename: Is the Supreme Court even aware that the lawyer in defense of the JW congregation lied during the hearing?

Oh, I suspect the judges know that.

We will know more when the judgement comes down

I should think that it would be in the best interest of Randy Wall to inform the court of David's dishonesty.

And I suspect that will happen when and if the case gets turned back to the Alberta courts. Keep in mind that this Supreme Court hearing is just to determine if Randy's case will be heard in Alberta

If the Supreme Court overturns the WTS' appeal, I think that Randy and his team have a whole lot in their arsenal that will come out in the lower court