Posts by AGuest

16

Rev 3:12 - New Jerusalem descending out of heaven?

by leaving_quietly in

there are scriptures talk about new jerusalem descending out of heaven.. rev 3:12 - the one that conquersi will make him a pillar in the temple of my god, and he will by no means go out [from it] anymore, and i will write upon him the name of my god and the name of the city of my god, the new jerusalem which descends out of heaven from my god, and that new name of mine.. rev 21:2 - i saw also the holy city, new jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from god and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.. most scholars feel all this is figurative, because, well, as barnes said:.

"the idea of a city literally descending from heaven, and being set upon the earth with such proportions - three hundred and seventy miles high revelation 21:16, made of gold, and with single pearls for gates, and single gems for the foundations - is absurd.".

eze 37:12 - and i will conclude with them a covenant of peace; an indefinitely lasting covenant is what there will come to be with them.

AGuest

Shelby, I'm a tad confused by what you say. I understand, dear LQ (peace to you!). If what was occurring with me wasn't, I would be confused, too. No, seriously... I would be. Who ever told us of these things?? No one, at least in MY history.

I mean no disrespect by that. Your posts intrigue me.

No worries, dear one - I totally believe you as to both.

This was a "duh!" moment for me. It's plainly obvious in Rev 3:12 that "New Jerusalem" is not the name of the city. Why have I never caught that before?"

I felt the SAME way when it was revealed to me!!

I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem" I assume "JaH eTsidhqenu" is the name of the city written on "Him that conquers" (who is that, by the way?)

The "he" that conquers is my Lord, the HOLY One of Israel, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah), dear one... and yes, that is the name of the city... and yes, it is "written" on him.

How is this so? Rev 21:15-21 describe what appears to be a physical, brilliant, beautiful city. I understand about the Christ being the cornerstone and the gates and such, but the language used here indicates a physical city. You're saying it's not a physical city?

(Smile) It is a physical city, yes, in that it is made up of PEOPLE, dear one. BEAUTIFUL people, not in physical aesthetics... but in SPIRIT. Let me show you something, something my Lord showed me - the Apostles, as the "foundation" of this city... from the POV of God and Christ:

"The foundations of the wall of the city were adorned with all kinds of precious stones: the first foundation was jasper, the second sapphire, thethird chalcedony, the fourth emerald, the fifth sardonyx, the sixth sardius, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth chrysoprase, the eleventh jacinth, and the twelfth amethyst." Revelation 21:19, 20

THIS is how the apostles are viewed in the eyes of God and Christ: as PRECIOUS "stones". Indeed, Christ himself is referred to as the "stone"... the "builders rejected."

Why do you refer to JAH as Pharoah and his Son as Joseph? What connection am I missing?

The account of Joseph and Pharaoh is actually a precursor to the relationship between God and Christ: because Joseph didn't presume to raise HIMSELF up (being a servant of the TRUE God), but humbled himself and took his "torture pole" (he subjected himself to the penalties imposed upon him, although wrongly accused by Potiphar's wife)... he was called up by Pharaoh. In subjecting himself to Pharaoh, he ended up being EXALTED by Pharaoh himself, to Pharaoh's right hand... so that he became over ALL of Pharaoh's belongings... all of EGYPT... except over Pharaoh himself. He was entrusted with gathering, storing, and distributing PHARAOH'S grain... so that any who wanted BREAD... had to go to HIM (and not Pharaoh; going directly to Pharaoh would have been utter disrespect for Pharaoh himself because it would have ignored and attempted to usurp HIS declaration that it was to JOSEPH folks had to go for grain. In the same way, because he did not exalt himself... although he had power to DO so, as the Son of God... my Lord, the HOLY One of Israel, JAHESHUA (MischaJah)... was exalted BY the MOST Holy one of Israel, JAH (the Father)... to HIS right hand, second only TO JAH... and placed over ALL of JAH'S belonging... in heaven AND on earth... and anyone who wants to receive "food" from JAH... must go to... and THROUGH... that One to get it. And trying to get "fed" any other way... makes one a thief and a plunderer. Because HE is the One exalted by God. John 10:1; 14:6)

Who is the Bride? We've always been taught it is the 144,000. However, other posts would seem to indicate this might not be the case. I'm admittedly confused here.

The Bride of Christ are those who are in union with him by means of holy spirit. This union makes them ONE spirit... as a human man and woman are one FLESH. Just as Eve was bone of Adham's bone and flesh of Adham's flesh... this Bride is bone of CHRIST'S bone and flesh of HIS flesh. She is made up of at least 144,000 "from the among the sons of Israel"... as the firstfruits of this Bride... ALONG WITH a great crowd from EVERY nation, bribe, tongue and people... including those from Israel who are NOT "sealed" as part of the 144,000. Because ALL Israel will be saved. They just all be part of that first number. (Revelation 5:9, 10; Romans 11:24-32)

She/they are called a "bride"... because they are joined to a "husband." The word "husband" comes from a term that means caretaker. For example, one who cares for a vineyard... or for livestock. NOT to say that this Bride is a mere plant or livestock or property. Husbandry denotes GREAT care: knowledge of the thing being cared for so that it is CULTIVATED. Cultivated so that it thrives... grows... and bears fruit/offspring... doing so because it is WELL cared for. Christ cares for the congregation... his BODY... as he cares for himself. Adham... blew that. He not only did not care for his own flesh and bone, Eve... but threw her under the bus in a rash attempt to save his own hide. What he SHOULD have done was OFFERED his life... which was still PERFECT when SHE ate... in turn for hers. Both would have been forgiven, just based on HIS love and sacrifice. He didn't... and so they both died, as have their progeny since.

Christ, however, DID offer his life on behalf of HIS bride. Rather than throw HER under the bus ("Look, Dad, they're ALL sinners; why not just get rid of them and start over!?") he GAVE his life to save theirs. As a result, he PROVED himself to be Israel's "husbandly owner". Not only Israel's... but the world's. Anyone in it... who wants to join to him.

A related question: what is the distinction between the 144,000 and the "great crowd"? (in the simplest terms possible, please)

144,000 = Guaranteed slots (thus, "sealed") for 12,000 from each tribe of Israel (excluding Dan and Joseph, as Rachel's firstborn, gets two shares)... in fulfillment of JAH's promise to His friend, Abraham.

GC - Non-guaranteed slots for people of EVERY nation, tribe, and tongue... including some Israel who are not in the sealed group... to replace unfaithful Israel. Israel as a whole was supposed to make up a people for special possession and holy nation to God. When they rejected the king HE sent them... He turned His attention from Israel and to the nations to "take out of THEM a people for His name."

Together, these... the "little flock" of Israel (little, because they number only 144,000)... and the "other sheep" of the GC... make up that "people for a special possession" and "holy nation" to God. They are the "temple" in which He dwells by spirit... the NEW Jerusalem and holy city of David. Through these people, IN WHOM the Law of God is written... ALL the nations of the earth "bless themselves."

The City/Temple looks, thus:

JAHVEH = the MOST Holy

Christ = the Holy

144,000 + GC = Courtyard of Priests

Israel (not priests) = Courtyard of Israel

Non-Israelite women who proved faithful (Ruth, Rahab, etc.) = Courtyard of Woman

Sheep (Separated from Goats) = Courtyard of Gentiles

Goats (Gog) = Outside the City

I hope this helps, dear LQ.

Again, peace to you!

YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,

SA

75

The 24 Elders in Revelation are NOT the anointed......

by EndofMysteries in

today i just thought of this.

i had written a thread about the false teaching of the anointed being resurrected already.

anyway, the wt assumes the 24 elders in revelation are the 144,000, and the assumption is merely because both sit on thrones.

AGuest

I am compelled you ask you both, dear BC and Data-Dog (peace to you, both!):

Where does Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Samson, Moses, David, etc., "fit" into Christ's kingdom? They will all be there, yes? Because the apostles were promised the opportunity to "recline with Abraham" in my Lord's kingdom. Yes? Yet, the kingship/priesthood was not OFFERED while these were alive, but offered FIRST... to the 12 on the night of Passover Nisan 14. Yet, these were faithful men, too, yes?

While they are in a covenant for a kingdom... and granted to rule over the 12 tribes of Israel... do you TRULY believe the Apostles would have a position HIGHER than Abraham? Moses? David? Enoch? That they will rule over THESE... who are not even IN the covenant for co-rulership with Christ? The Apostles quarreled, lacked faith, hid, denied my Lord, displayed hypocrisy, etc. Noah, Moses, Abraham, Joseph, David, etc., all did "just do" (David was forgiven his murder of Uriah/adultery with Bathsheba and paid the price).

THINK, dear ones... in terms of mercy, justice, and FAITH: would the Apostles rule over even Abraham?? Moses??

If not... WHERE would these be... IN God's kingdom? To WHOM did JAH reveal His "intimate" talk... when speaking with mankind??

It's not complicated at all. Look to Christ to see what God would do.

I hope this helps and, again, peace to you!

YOUR servant and a doulos of Christ,

SA

75

The 24 Elders in Revelation are NOT the anointed......

by EndofMysteries in

today i just thought of this.

i had written a thread about the false teaching of the anointed being resurrected already.

anyway, the wt assumes the 24 elders in revelation are the 144,000, and the assumption is merely because both sit on thrones.

AGuest

Why couldn't it be the holy ones that fell out of their tombs? It was all at the same time there was an earth quake and Jesus went up to his father and took the firstfruits with him. On the day of festival of first fruits. Remember noone could touch him for he had not ascended to his father yet and days later Thomas could touch him. Doesn't say how many holy ones rolled out of their graves. It never made sense to me that oh there was an earthquake they went into the city after they rolled out of their graves. The words the holy ones is what made me think why couldn't Jesus and the holy ones ascend at the same time.

Because that would mean the first resurrection has already occurred, dear LL (peace to you!)... which doesn't occur until Christ returns to gather ALL of his chosens ones, NOT just the "holy ones" (Israel) but ALL of those "faithful ones in union" with him. Those who have died, by resurrection... and those who have not died... by metamorphsos (change).

If the first resurrection has occurred, then we are more than 1,000 years past the co-rule with Christ, as well as past the period of Satan's abyssing. Also, keep in mind that SOME reported the emptying of the tombs... while others denied it. There was an earthquake and tombs were decimated... but nothing suggests that the dead in them were resurrected and taken to be with Christ. If so, others would have gone missing, too... particularly the Apostles (who apparently lived long enough to (1) meet Paul and (2) write their accounts decades later).

So, while it sounds like a good explanation, it's not actually logical in line of what occurred AFTER that... is still occurring NOW... and has yet TO occur.

I hope this helps.

Again, peace to you!

A doulos of Christ,

SA

75

The 24 Elders in Revelation are NOT the anointed......

by EndofMysteries in

today i just thought of this.

i had written a thread about the false teaching of the anointed being resurrected already.

anyway, the wt assumes the 24 elders in revelation are the 144,000, and the assumption is merely because both sit on thrones.

AGuest

First, Paul wrote that scripture long before Revelation was written.

Sigh. Okay, if we MUST... and given what you don't know but have opined on... we must...

Paul had heard of parts of the Revelation... LONG before John set it down in writing. John was told to write what he HAD seen, as well as what he WAS seeing and WOULD see. What he HAD seen... he shared with Paul.

"Write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after this.” Revelation 1:19

“I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago - whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows - such a one was caught up to the third heaven. And I know such a man - whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows - how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. 2 Corinthians 12:2-4

Paul was not speaking of himself, but of John, who shared what he had SEEN with Paul when Paul first met him, fourteen years before he wrote his 3 RD letter (1 Corinthians 5:9; 2 Corinthians13:1) to the Corinthians AND had been reacquainted with some of the Apostles (he had fallen out with most of them over the issue of the matter involving the man who slept with his father’s wife in the Corinthian congregation. Because of the division Paul’s instructions caused, which almost ruined that congregation, he and the apostles went their separate way... for 14 years).

John of Patmos was opposed to Paul.

NO, he wasn’t. He was one of the three that APPROVED Paul, indeed ASSIGNED him to his mission TO the nations (because he started out speaking to the JEWS... to whom he returned later... but his message was slightly different from theirs and didn’t want to cause more confusion):

“In fact, James, Cephas, and John, who were known as pillars of the church, recognized the gift God had given me, and they accepted Barnabas and me as their co-workers. They agreed that we should go to the uncircumcised and they to the circumcised.” Galatians 2:9

I don't the details yet but I approach that part.

Of course you don’t. Well, while you’re figuring them out (the “details”)... here’s the TRUTH:

Paul initially was not considered a disciple by the apostles because of his previous persecution. So it took him about three years before he actually met any of them. Barnabas took him up to Jerusalem to introduce him to them, but only James, Peter, and John received him. It was then that John related what he had seen... and Paul put faith in it. As a result, they considered Paul acceptable; however, because of the discontent of the OTHERS (due to Paul’s mishandling of the issue with the Corinthian congregation, which mishandling almost annihilated the faith of that entire congregation), they sent Paul and Barnabas to preach to the nations... which they did for 14 years before finally meeting the others (they went back to Jerusalem because the issue of circumcision had come up and he wanted their weigh-in (Peter had tried to tell the older men that the nations didn’t require circumcision and while the acquiesced to Peter, they did not to Paul and Barnabas). When James reinforced that circumcision was NOT necessary, the other apostles and older men FINALLY accepted Paul and sent him and Barnabas on another mission, this time with letters of introduction. (Acts 9:26-30; 11:2, 4, 17, 18; 15:1, 2, 6, 12, 22, 30-33; Galatians 1:13-2:9)

The MAIN thing that John saw and related to Paul... was Christ coming into his kingdom! John did not see that even some 60 or so years later – he saw it when it occurred (Matthew 16:28). That installation did not take place some 60 or so years after my Lord’s death and resurrection: it occurred 50 DAYS after his death and resurrection (which, BTW, is when the ride of the first horseman began). This is how they knew what the outpouring of holy spirit at Pentecost WAS: evidence of Christ receiving the kingdom and beginning to rule (1 Corinthians 15:25).

At that time, John could NOT have shared ALL that he with EVERYONE. For one, he didn’t UNDERSTAND it enough to do so and their faith wasn’t strong enough to receive it (Paul, however, having been called in a different manner... could receive it; heck, he’d seen a light, hear a voice, had scales put on his eyes, etc.). Second, John would have been put to death if what he saw had gotten out to the wrong men. The “Christians” would have disowned him because they couldn’t understand what he’d seen (Christ hadn’t mentioned any of these things! But he HAD told some that he things to tell them that they couldn’t yet bear!)... leaving him to the Jews, who would have called for his death (imagine him sharing things like “those who called themselves Jews” and “synagogue of Satan”).

AND share that is that it was Christ who had appeared to him?! No, he could only share that with those he trusted and only verbally, and only what he understood. The rest, he held onto until he was TOLD to write it, at which time the things he had SEEN some 60 or so years earlier... were brought BACK to his mind.

So John was very discreet in who he shared his visions with... until the time came and he was told to write them down... and disseminate them.

Paul was very educated.

Yes, he was. He was... wait for it... a LAWYER. And... he was a Roman. Versus a man of Judea OR Samaria...

Reading Paul, who was so careful with his reasoning, sophisticated, and educated, I doubt he meant for us to be stupid in our approach to Christ or scripture.

Then why do YOU keep being so?? I can tell you: your "pride" at being a "lawyer." Heady stuff, isn't it?

Paul specifically speaks of the folly of the cross. The idea that any king or important person would be a messiah by being crucifixed as a common criminal was foolish.

And you misunderstand Paul. Of COURSE it was ridiculous... which was the POINT: my Lord had done nothing to WARRANT such a death, that of a common criminal.

We can't view it the same way b/c our culture is so permated with Christian tradition. When Paul speaks of foolishness, he means the cross.

YOU can't view it... ANY way. Indeed, Paul is speaking of folks like you, folks who thinking is SO “worldly” that the SIMPLICITY of these things just goes right over their heads.

Most Christians do not believe one should be ignorant to be a Christian. In my own life, I've noticed that the more I know about culture, history, church tradition, the more my faith increases.

You certainly can’t tell that by what you post here... at least on these subjects, particularly as to faith. You fluctuate on a daily basis between “I’m a christian” and “I should be an atheist.” Which is why your comments as to “faith” and “christianity” are... beyond coherency.

Most early Christians lived in their original communities. It drew a cross section of beleivers.

Well, then, there you go! Explains who the 24 elders are!

Paul believed in community. One on one interaction with other Christians. I fail to see how a few people can abrogate the role of communal worship. Kkk

If that was the case, why in the world are most of HIS letters to GROUPS of people? Where are all of his letters to the individuals he routinely mentioned? Paul knew that the Body of Christ was made up of a UNION of people... who were IN union with one another by means of their UNION with Christ. Even so, simply understanding that 12 men were chosen... out of HOW many... to be the FOUNDATION of the new faith... should tell you that a “few” is sometimes all that is necessary.

Really, you should at least stick to your truth... which is that you DON’T know. You readily admit it. Why keep throwing yourself into a matter that you ADMIT you DON’T know about? Would be like me trying to opine on computer programming. Haven’t a clue and so know that it’s not a subject I should even involve myself in, except perhaps to ask questions. But to continue to interject rhetoric into a discussion about a topic you ADMIT you don’t have a clue about it... beyond arrogance. It borders on REAL foolishness, the kind some would consider utter stupidity.

Listen... heck, ASK... THEN listen... or at least READ the Bible... and perhaps you’ll learn something. I don’t have very high hopes, though...

A doulos of Christ,

SA

50

Revelation 14:3 Who sings the new song???????

by label licker in

in society's revelation book chapter 29 verse 10 on page 201 states the 24 elders are 144,000 and all are singing the same song, how can that be?

in their bible the only ones that can master that song is the 144,000. not the four living creatures nor the elders.

this 144,000 group is standing before the 24 elders.

AGuest

For Jesus to be just and fair, all humans should have equal access to the meaning of scripture.

All humans DO have equal access to the meaning of the scriptures. The same way his first disciples did: through HIM (Luke 24:27, 32, 44, 45). Unfortunately, not all humans take advantage of knowing HIM (Luke 24:31, 35; John 6:50, 51, 56; 15:4, 5; Proverbs 4:7; 8:1-36). Not HIS fault (Isaiah 29:14-16)... and certainly not the fault of those who HAVE taken such advantage... that others haven't and so don't have such access (John 10:7, 9). It's their own fault, including their failure to LISTEN (Isaiah 59:1, 2; 58:1-14; Daniel 12:10; John 10:1-5, 8, 27). Doesn't HAVE to be that way for them, though (Matthew 7:7-11; 17:5; John 7:37, 38).

People cannot reference any specific interpretation b/c it was not meant for our present day.

Says someone who says no one can know... indeed, that they don't know... but apparently knows.

John could have written a simple statement.

No, he couldn't have. He was limited to writing what he was TOLD to write: what he had seen, was seeing, and would see. Nothing less, nothing more (Revelation 1:11, 19; 22:18, 19). He did write that there would be ones who would HEAR the words of the prophecy and observe the things written in it. Indeed, it was for such ones that he was GIVEN the visions (Revelation 1:3). Even so, in hearing such ones would not be relying on their OWN understanding, but on the understanding they received from God, through Christ (Job 32:8; Genesis 40:8; Psalm 147:5; Proverbs 1:5, 6; 8:4-11; 9:10; 28:5; 2 Peter 1:20-2:2)

If xx and yy were meant to be Bablyon the Great or lamps or whatever, John could simply have written I saw four hoursemen, they were some modern country yet to exist, the United States, located principally in New York and Geneva, the Trilaterial Commission or anything.

Yet, he didn't... and you're chagrined about that because YOU don't know what he meant. Had you simply ASKED, however... in faith... of the One who would have TOLD you... YOU would know what the horsemen represent... and WHEN... as well as the other visions. You can't ask someone, though, who you refuse to believe/admit exists. So, proceed on your own understanding. See how far that gets you. No farther than the speculations of man that you are already "eating."

A doulos of Christ,

SA

75

The 24 Elders in Revelation are NOT the anointed......

by EndofMysteries in

today i just thought of this.

i had written a thread about the false teaching of the anointed being resurrected already.

anyway, the wt assumes the 24 elders in revelation are the 144,000, and the assumption is merely because both sit on thrones.

AGuest

Well, now, several assumptions (most of which are wrong, so wrong) have been presented:

That is was up to John to "open" and "reveal" the meaning of the "revelation"... rather than their meaning NOT being "sealed up" in the first place (Revelation 22:10)

That no one else would, could, or was meant to understand the things of the revelation (Revelation 1:1, 5)

That holy spirit doesn't lead into all truth (John 14:16, 17, 26; 16:13)

That the same holy spirit that allowed John to RECEIVE the visions... wouldn't allow others to UNDERSTAND them (John 16:12-15 1 John 2:26-28)

That because the world hasn't stated on as known, recognized, and "lettered" by the world as someone "reknowned" in the world for "studying" scripture... the MOST Holy One of Israel would not reveal HIS will, by means of His Son, the HOLY One of Israel, to someone NOT part of the world... although Christ SAID his kingdom was no part of the world... no, He would only do so to learned scholars of the world who look for keys and clues in things OF the world, yet, curiously, they don't have holy spirit EITHER... indeed, don't even know what it is... or does... and certainly would never claim it, given the stigma, chagrin, ridicule, disdain, and other responses they would get from their peers who are also in and of the world... as well as from the rest of the world... and so only opine and speculate as to what these things are and mean because they lean "on their own worldly understanding... rather then listening to the One who gave John the visions to being with... (Proverbs 3:5; Jeremiah 17:5-8; Matthew 17:5; John3:11, 12; 10:27; 1 John 2:26, 27)

That jealousy is NOT rottenness TO THE BONE (but it is, truly... BONE deep, meaning... all the way to the SPIRIT - Proverbs 14:30)...

A doulos of Christ,

SA, who offers that perhaps some should check themselves... before they wreck themselves...

16

Rev 3:12 - New Jerusalem descending out of heaven?

by leaving_quietly in

there are scriptures talk about new jerusalem descending out of heaven.. rev 3:12 - the one that conquersi will make him a pillar in the temple of my god, and he will by no means go out [from it] anymore, and i will write upon him the name of my god and the name of the city of my god, the new jerusalem which descends out of heaven from my god, and that new name of mine.. rev 21:2 - i saw also the holy city, new jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from god and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.. most scholars feel all this is figurative, because, well, as barnes said:.

"the idea of a city literally descending from heaven, and being set upon the earth with such proportions - three hundred and seventy miles high revelation 21:16, made of gold, and with single pearls for gates, and single gems for the foundations - is absurd.".

eze 37:12 - and i will conclude with them a covenant of peace; an indefinitely lasting covenant is what there will come to be with them.

AGuest

Greetings, dear LQ, and peace to you! I would like to respond, if I may - thank you!

"New Jerusalem" is actually not the name of city, but the description of a city, the NEW City of Double Peace ("Jerusalem"), the Bride of Christ. "She" is not a literal city as we know of such from an earthly POV - she is a "city/temple" made up of people: Christ, the foundation cornerstone; the Apostles and Prophets, the foundation; the Apostles, the gates; the Prophets and others, pillars; and most, living stones. "In" her is the Tree of Life, Christ... and his kings/priests... those which are in union with him and thus the "branches" in that Tree (of Life). The Highest "Ruler" in this City is the MOST Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies ("Pharaoh")... who has conferred authority upon His Son, the HOLY One of Israel, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH ("Joseph"), whose authority comes from the throne of God (JAH).

God provides food and drink to those of the nations who "enter" into this "city"... by means of the "leaves" of Tree of Life (the flesh of Christ... or "manna") and the "river" of "living" water (the blood of God and Christ... holy spirit) that "flows" FROM the "throne" of God and Christ, the Lamb. There is no "temple" in this city that IS a temple... because God (the MOST Holy One of Israel) and Christ (the HOLY One of Israel) are its temple.

This city "comes down out of heaven" in that it is formed in the spirit realm... in the place where JAH dwells... by means of a "marriage" between the Lamb (Christ) and his Bride (those who make up the "city")... where these become ONE by means of becoming one in spirit (he, the Head of the Body, they the Body). Once that union is fully accomplished... in which these become LIKE Christ... flesh of HIS flesh and blood of HIS blood... so that LIKE him they can "go in and out"... between all realms, the spiritual AND the physical... they return to the physical to rule OVER it... which they do ON the earth (and not from "above" it).

Thus, the NEW Jerusalem, which is named "JaH eTsidhqenu"... or "JAH is our righteousness/vindication" is established on the EARTH... which JAH created for man and which will not be made to totter. She replaces the old Jerusalem, which was the center/heart of the people beloved of God, Israel, the progeny of God's friend, Abraham.

I hope this helps.

Again, peace to you!

A doulos of Christ,

SA

75

The 24 Elders in Revelation are NOT the anointed......

by EndofMysteries in

today i just thought of this.

i had written a thread about the false teaching of the anointed being resurrected already.

anyway, the wt assumes the 24 elders in revelation are the 144,000, and the assumption is merely because both sit on thrones.

AGuest

I understand, dear BC (again, peace to you!). Let's take a look:

However, many others ([various comemntators listed]) believe these are angelic figures. There are no other human beings in [Rev] chapter 4,

You mean, excluding John (who was human, albeit in the spirit at the time)? I must disagree. But let's continue...

and in Isa 24:23 angels might be called "elders: (it is debated whether they are angels or the elders of Israel).

Since it's unresolved, then it should be left out. However, the Hebrew word there, zaqen, does refer to men, and particularly old men. Now I believe that spirit beings are men, too, as that term means the plural of "man" (Exodus 15:3; however, I think presuming the word here refers to old SPIRIT beings... is a stretch. (BTW, women are "men", too: a female man... or man with a womb - hence, when God/Christ refer to "earthling man"... they are referring both male AND female... men AND women. I digress.)

In Ps 89:7 (cf. 1 Kings 22:19; Job 15:8) God sits in the "council of his holy ones" (=angels).

That is not accurate, dear one. The "holy ones" are not angels - they are those of Israel called to be kings and priests in God's kingdom... or the 144,000 (Luke 12:32;Romans 1:1, 7; 11:13; 1 Corinthians 1:1; 2 Corinthians 1:1; Ephesians 1:1; Philippians 1:1; Colossians 1:2; Revelation 7:1-8). Psalms 89:7 is referring to the assembly of the HOLY ONES ("saints") as those make up part of the congregation of the firstborn (Psalm 1:5; 82:1, 6, 7; 111:1; Hebrews 12:23; Revelation 1:4, 6; 5:9, 10; 19:4). 1 Kings 22:19 is referring to the GENERAL assembly... which is comprised of "armies" of spirit beings (Job 1:6; 2:1; Hebrews 12:23), "armies" meaning great numbers, not necessarily military might (and which is why His name, JaHVeH, means "JAH Who Breathes Armies (of spirit beings) Into Existence".

Job 15:8 is speaking of those in the intimate circle of JAH's council... which is neither the 144,000 or even the Apostles (the latter of whom are CHRIST's intimates). These are the "24 elders"... and they too come from the earth. You might see that in a sec.

Moreover, angels are called "thrones or powers or rulers or authorities" in Col. 1:16 (cf. Eph 3:10; 6:12),

Colossians 1:16 is referring to the "superior authorities" set in the place ON EARTH by JAH (Luke 4:5; Romans 13:1, 2). The "powers" in the spirit realm are principalities (hence, some are called "princes" but do not have rulerships THERE... because there is only one kingdom. If these were part of the kingdom rulership, how does Christ "become" king... and have co-rulers bought from the earth? The kingdom wasn't even set up/established... until Christ entered with the value of HIS blood (Daniel 2:44; Luke 12:32; John 18:36). In the meantime, various spirit beings were placed "over" certain territories... principalities... that did not make them rulers or governors, but protectors and watchers (Ezekiel 28:14; Job 1:7; 2:2; Luke 4:6; Daniel 10:13, 20, 21; Matthew 18:10; 12:15; Hebrews 1:14; 2:1, 8, 12, 18; 3:1, 7, 14).

and they wear white in Matt. 28:3; John 20:12; Acts 1:10.

As do ALL spirit beings, dear ones... including those bought from the earth: the holy ones (144,00) AND the great crowd (Revelation 6:11; 7:9, 13, 14; 22:14)

[Bobcat - This last argument counters the argument that they must be human because of wearing white.) The thrones and golden crowns could refer to their royal function under God similar to the way first-century kings were subject to the Roman emperor.

Actually, it doesn't. All spirit beings wear white "outer garments" or "robes"... which garments/robes represent the CLEAN body... that which is UNCORRUPTIBLE... meaning it doesn't become sick or diseased... or age... die or decay... because there is no sin or death IN it. When they are born AGAIN... in the spirit... meaning, when they put OFF incorruption (bodies with sin and death in them) and put on INCORRUPTION (bodies that are free of sin and death)... then these become "like" the angels (Zechariah 3:4-7; Luke 20:36; 1Corinthians 15:50-54)

The key is the function of the presbyteroi (elders) in the book [of Revelation]. Their primary role is that of worship (5:14; 11:16; 19:4) and praise (4:11; 5:9-10; 11:17-18; 14:3; 19:4).

Which is the same function of the great crowd and 144,000 (Revelation 7:10, 15); however, neither of these constitute the 24 elders.

In addition, they serve as intermediaries and interpreters (5:5; 7:13-17).

As did the man Moses... and the Prophets (Exodus 19:10-25; Hebrews 1:1)... something you really should keep in mind as to this issue.

A close examination of these texts shows a distinct differentiation between the elders and the saints.

This is true: these 24 are NOT the saints/holy ones...

In 5:8 they hold golden bowls that contain the prayers of the saints; in 7:13-14 one of them explains who the victorious saints are; in 11:18 they thank God for rewarding the saints; in 14:3 the 144,000 sing "a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders"; and in 19:4 they join the heavenly chorus.

Yes.

The elders are seated on thrones (4:4; 11:16), while the saints stand before the thone (7:9).

In the account stated in the 7th chapter of Revelation, yes, but the saints/holy ones... and the rest of their co-rulers (the great crowd out of the nations)... DO sit down (Revelation 20:4). Even so, they are not the saints/holy ones, no.

From this evidence it is more likely that these are heavenly beings who reign with God and are part of the retinue surrounding his throne.

Not quite.

Moreover, since "all the angels" also stand before the throne (7:11), these must be celestial beings with a ruling function.

And here is the thing: above you say that it CAN'T be the saints/holy ones... because they are standing BEFORE the throne. Here, you state that ALL angels ALSO... STAND BEFORE the throne. So, if standing BEFORE the throne negates the saints being such elders, then on the same premise, they can't be angels, either. Yet, you state:

[Bobcat - Thus, Daniel 10:13, "one of the foremost princes" which included the angelic Michael, with the phrase being spoken by an angelic messenger.]

If Michael is "angelic"... then HE is an angel, too, yes? Indeed, an arkangel. So, let's look at Revelation 7:11 again:

"All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures."

Now, if ALL of the angels are STANDING... and doing so not just around the throne of JAH... but around the elders... how could the elders themselves BE angels, even arkangels? That would mean the elders are standing around themselves, yes?

The elders are not the saints/holy ones, not of the great crowd from among the nations, and not angels. I exhort you to look into Moses and the Prophets, even Abraham. Even Enoch. King David. Isaac. Jacob. Joseph. And men like these. While these were promised a kingdom, they were NOT promised co-RULERSHIP in one. The covenant for THAT was not established when these men lived... but started with the Apostles. So they would not be part of the group that makes up that kingship/priesthood. Indeed, that group is made up of Israel and people of the nations, yet, Enoch, Noah, and Abraham weren't even OF Israel as Israel did not EXIST in their day ("Israel" starts with the descendants of Abraham's grandson, Jacob... later named Israel).

Yet, all of these... Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Samuel, David, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Jeremiah, Zechariah... and others... WERE of JAH's "intimate counsel." To THEM He told things He told to no others during their time. To THEM He revealed sacred secrets... some of which were shared with others.

Which, though, of the angels did He share similar intimacy? Look into these, dear one... and the promises made to them... and others like them... and you will find your "24 elders."

I hope this helps and, again, peace to you!

YOUR servant and a doulos of Christ,

SA

50

Revelation 14:3 Who sings the new song???????

by label licker in

in society's revelation book chapter 29 verse 10 on page 201 states the 24 elders are 144,000 and all are singing the same song, how can that be?

in their bible the only ones that can master that song is the 144,000. not the four living creatures nor the elders.

this 144,000 group is standing before the 24 elders.

AGuest

Thank you, dear Lars (again, peace to you!). The thing is that those of the other 10 tribes who worshipped WITH the Jews in Jerusalem (indeed, the priests were of Levi; however, the lion's share of Levi went with the 10-tribe kingdom), identified themselves as "Jews," yes. But that does not take into account those of the 10 that did NOT. The Jews, then only recognized those of Israel who worshipped with them... shunning those who did not (John 4:9, 19). That is because the Law "fenced off" those who did NOT worship as they did, according to the Law Covenant.

Regarding your numbers, I recall we discussed this before. Then, I shared with you that even if the 144,000 only represent a 10th, it is a tenth as to ISRAEL and not a 10th as to the great crowd. We are actually GIVEN the number of the first; however, no man... not even your dear self... is able to number the latter. Why? Because the "full number" of that group is not set BY a number; it is set by TIME. The number is determined, then, by how many of that group are actually ON the Ark (of the Covenant)... when the "Door" (that is Christ)... is closed by God (John 6:44).

Since my Lord, the Son (you?)... who is that Door... doesn't even know the day and hour of his own return... and the START of the gathering of gathering of that group, he wouldn't know the number of its end, either. Else... he would have told his early day followers. As he told them many, many other things.

Greetings, dear BC and again, peace to you! I did read your comments... and commented in response.

Peace to you, both!

YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,

SA

75

The 24 Elders in Revelation are NOT the anointed......

by EndofMysteries in

today i just thought of this.

i had written a thread about the false teaching of the anointed being resurrected already.

anyway, the wt assumes the 24 elders in revelation are the 144,000, and the assumption is merely because both sit on thrones.

AGuest

many others ([various comemntators listed]) believe these are angelic figures. There are no other human beings

Thank you for that, dear BC (peace to you!). May I offer that the "angelic figures"... or spirits... depicted are the "four living beings", which are not human? Actually, NONE are human... any longer. Humans are mortal. These, the four living creatures (living spirit beings), 24 elders, and great crowd all have put on immortality at this time, and so none are "human", earthling man... but spirit "man."

Again, peace to you!

A doulos of Christ,

SA