Posts by AhHah

92

Reflections

by Frenchy in

jw
friends

im starting a new thread because its time i left the bergman discussion.

i would like to address some comments made by ahhah, however, comments which have given me reason to look deep into myself.. even then, i wonder how objective a person could ever be after having had part of their life taken from them by a cult association.

on the other hand, who else (other than an ex-jw) would ever care enough to work as tirelessly as he seems to have in attempting to document the potential harm of this religion (biased as it may be).

AhHah

Frenchy,

Why is it so hard to walk away from it if we know that it is false? Are we totally convinced that it was indeed a deception?

I found it relatively easy to walk away and leave behind a lifetime of slavery once I understood that it was not God's organization. And yes, I did research for many months, and I am totally convinced that it was indeed a deception. The resultant pain is not from walking away -- that is a relief! The pain comes from the realization of all that we have lost in exchange for our slavery. Lost opportunities, lost relationships, and even the loss of one's sense of self.

I get the feeling when I read your questions that you have not personally been through this process. Is that the case?

Why do we feel so compelled to attack what was once our life’s pursuit?

Not an uncommon reaction of victims of injustice of any kind. In view of the extreme demands of the JWs and the high price that so many have paid with their lives, is that really so difficult to understand?

Edited by - AhHah on 4 November 2000 15:10:33

92

Reflections

by Frenchy in

jw
friends

im starting a new thread because its time i left the bergman discussion.

i would like to address some comments made by ahhah, however, comments which have given me reason to look deep into myself.. even then, i wonder how objective a person could ever be after having had part of their life taken from them by a cult association.

on the other hand, who else (other than an ex-jw) would ever care enough to work as tirelessly as he seems to have in attempting to document the potential harm of this religion (biased as it may be).

AhHah

Frenchy,

Good questions. There is much objective information out there to help you to analyze your experiences as a JW and arrive at your own answers. I posted just a few below.

A dictionary definition of cult: (obviously subjective)
3 : a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents

click http://www.ex-cult.org/General/identifying-a-cult

click http://www.ex-cult.org/General/review.academic.research

click http://www.csj.org/infoserv_cult101/cult101.htm

click http://www.csj.org/infoserv_cult101/checklis.htm

Is the WTS, the Jehovah’s Witnesses a cult? It would depend on whom you ask. Is it an association that controls the lives of its members. Most definitely. However, would that not be the case if it truly was what it claims to be? Would that not be its very nature, to differentiate its members from the ‘world’? Is TRUTH not unique? Once found and accepted should it not be defended against all lies and misrepresentations?

I would perhaps add to your questions above, why would a religious organization feel a need to enforce any type of control of any kind over its members? What are they afraid of if they do not attempt to do so? That people will not feel obligated to conform and will exercise their own thinking and free will? That they will dare to disagree with those men who establish the "truth", the doctrines? That the influence and power of those leaders might be undermined?

Why would any of those things be undesirable if God himself has called people to the religion and if they are certain that they have the "truth"? Would they not voluntarily comform if they were convinced of that?

If what is important about the religion is individual salvation (versus a human power structure), then why would the religion not respect the individual? Why not leave the individual's choice of what to believe, what to reject, how to live one's life, between the individual and God? Why not let the religion provide opportunity to minister to spiritual needs as opposed to dictating beliefs and actions?

So what if every person has a different concept of God? Are we not all humans with similar feelings and needs? Are we not God-like enough to be able to minister to one another without demanding complete agreement and compliance before doing so? Are we not willing to let God reveal himself to sincere individuals and let God himself provide any correction or needed adjustments in thinking or worship?

Human nature is that we seek those who tend to agree with us and avoid those who disagree with us, although that does not always serve us well. When there is mutual respect for differences, without condemnation and rejection, are we not all benefited?

How can any human organization ever justify any attempt to usurp God's authority and presume to enforce that which God reserves to himself? Where did Christ himself vest any human organization with the power that the JW religion (and many others) have appropriated for themselves?
**********************************************************************

A more disturbing question is why humans have empowered controlling human organizations with their support and loyalty. They would not even exist otherwise.

These organizations obviously provide (or at least promise to provide) something which some feel is valuable enough to surrender their friends, their own families, their children and parents, an enormous amount of their time, a willingness to die before compromising their dictated beliefs, yes they surrender their very lives. Followers are willing to accept without question that God speaks to their religious leaders even though God does not speak to them. What are they getting in return?

My theory is that they get reassurances that they cannot find evidence of through their personal experience alone. I would add that many are lazy and do not want to research and examine and analyze and think for themselves. It is easier to let others do it for them (but what a high price they pay for their laziness!). They are provided with a sense of security in a world that seems to offer none. They are convinced that their allegiance and loyalty will allow them to defy death itself, the ultimate promise, the ultimate victory, the ultimate deception!

The mysteries of a universe that exceeds our own intelligence becomes the "proof" that we must accept that which we do not understand. Thus, there MUST be a God, even though we have not met him, even though he has not spoken to us personally. Therefore, anything that anyone claims that God has done for them or revealed to them alone must be at least possible. Therein lies the hook that humans who wish to have power over others may use. All they need is the balls to say God speaks to them, be really charismatic, promise peace, happiness, brotherhood, answers to every problem and need and doubt and insecurity -- and then "Presto" -- one has a group of followers and a new religion.

Now, how do we keep our new followers? We must be different, we must offer revelations that no one else has. We must make them sound really good, the more over the top the better. After all, it comes from God and all things are possible with God -- just look around -- can YOU create a blade of grass -- well, there's your "proof"! We must also condemn all of the other unbelievers as not having God's spirit, lacking faith, not as worthy as we are -- why are we so worthy? -- gee, I don't know -- I guess we are just really special -- yeah, that's it! -- we ARE special! -- we aren't just a bunch of nobodies that are going to die like everyone else! -- we are SAVED! Thank God for Reverend Jim for recognizing how SPECIAL we are -- What's that? Drink this poison kool-aid? Go out in door-to-door every day? God cannot call people on his own? He is not powerful enough to do that? He needs our slavery? Because we are special! After all, if we do this we won't really die like everybody else, we will be saved!

So why am I so unhappy then? I guess I just don't have enough faith. I must work much harder. Maybe God will bless me then. I am so unworthy -- I am so special -- I am so unworthy -- I am so special.

Promises, deception, control, guilt = cult = humans who want power over others.

Edited by - AhHah on 4 November 2000 13:21:24

Edited by - AhHah on 4 November 2000 14:5:43

Edited by - AhHah on 4 November 2000 15:7:5

54

Jerry Bergman, Ph.D. (psy) - JW insights

by AhHah in

jw
friends

this site also contains articles by ken raines, who seems to have developed the site.. url http://www.premier1.net/~raines/.

url http://www.premier1.net/~raines/story.html (ken raines).

url http://www.premier1.net/~raines/papers.html (j. bergman).

AhHah

Xandit,

Thanks for the link. I found the associated link below to be especially relevant. It is apparently an objective review of one of Bergman's books (even though the site is pro-JW). I haven't seen the book, but this review documents sloppy research and questionable editing and credibility. http://www.jehovah.to/freedom/review.htm.

He is apparently very self-indulgent even with his "professional" writings and hurts his credibility. Seems very immature and unprofessional, as has been pointed out by others on this thread who are more familiar with his work than I am.

I still believe that he has some research that is potentially insightful to JWs and ex-JWs. It is a shame that he makes it all seem suspect by his indulgences. As Waiting suggested, he should have gone through enough therapy before attempting his work.

Even then, I wonder how objective a person could ever be after having had part of their life taken from them by a cult association. On the other hand, who else (other than an ex-JW) would ever care enough to work as tirelessly as he seems to have in attempting to document the potential harm of this religion (biased as it may be). Ironically, it is probably the well-read ex-JWs who are past the anger, who are in the best position to critically evaluate his work and conclusions -- and they are probably the least in need of it. C'est la vie.

Flawed as his work may be, perhaps it is better than silence. If nothing else, a big caution flag is being waved to the world. In view of all the wasted lives (including mine) and potential wasted lives, there is a real need for big flags to be waved.

I wish there was some way to gather from every ex-JW a standardized survey of damages sustained through membership and have one place for persons to view them and assess the total impact. This would be relevant to anyone interested in cult influences. The dark side of this scenario is those who would use such data to justify the denial of religious and other personal freedoms. Since membership is voluntary (except for children of members), the danger of cult involvement is a sad but necessary price that society pays. The answer to this dilemma is not loss of freedoms, but rather education. When everyone has access to objective information, then the cults are robbed of much of their power and influence over gullible victims. Hopefully, the Internet will prove to be a valuable resource for such information, and not just a vehicle for those would prey on the unwary.

Edited by - AhHah on 4 November 2000 2:55:30

7

Who's the best James Bond?

by Pathofthorns in

but you can only choose from:.

timothy dalton.

sean connery.

AhHah

Sean Connery ... but if Pierce Brosnan was on the list I might have to give him the nod.

4

Strange Books/Kooks Museum

by Seven in

a few interesting clicks: http://www.teleport.com/~dkossy/index.html.

and http://www.teleport.com/~dkossy/kooksmus.html

AhHah

Geez, just when you think you've heard it all ... and we thought JWs were weird!

6

Waiting visits Carmel

by Seven in

i thought i'd share waiting's vacation pictures of her visit to carmel's.

following a tiresome flight he was there to pick her up at the airport.

they stopped by his place of business to change cabs.

AhHah

Well done Seven!

You are definitely the web-link meister! How do you find all those great links??

54

Jerry Bergman, Ph.D. (psy) - JW insights

by AhHah in

jw
friends

this site also contains articles by ken raines, who seems to have developed the site.. url http://www.premier1.net/~raines/.

url http://www.premier1.net/~raines/story.html (ken raines).

url http://www.premier1.net/~raines/papers.html (j. bergman).

AhHah

Waiting,

I didn't quote your posts in my post above, but thanks for your reply.

I have been surprised by some of the reactions to this post. One would think from some of the responses that I had posted a blanket endorsement for this man's articles, almost as though I had written them myself. I simply thought that they contained a perspective that I had not seen elsewhere and that some might find it an interesting and perhaps even a valuable read. He may indeed be guilty of everything that he has been accused of on this thread. I didn't personally find any blatant inaccuracies in the articles that I read. In fact, my personal experiences and observations after 31 baptized years of devout JW membership confirms many of his observations. I also believe that he discredits his own articles by including his personal opinions and conclusions in his research. In that context, conclusions should be left to the reader. But, that having been said, I still found the research interesting and insightful.

Apparently, some here are very sensitive to reading quotes that portray the WT society as an intolerant cult that causes extensive harm and injustice to its members. I didn't expect to find attempted censorship and intolerance on this forum since I was not attacking anyone or their opinions.

Why are you so persistent in pushing this man’s opinions?

Ironically, people that post here (including myself) have made similar points to Bergman's without castigation. I will respect those sensitivities in the future -- I will never again post any quotes that speak negatively of the WT society. I will only post the links and let people who are interested read them for themselves. That way, no one will have to read anything that might make them feel uncomfortable or challenge their thinking or opinions about the Borg. We wouldn't want that, now would we?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

p.s. Waiting,

I wanted to add that, by way of contrast, I appreciated the way that you expressed your opinions on this thread. You obviously did not take the content of the links personally, nor did you make me feel that you were attacking me for posting it. As usual, you set a good example for all of us. Thank you.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Edited by - AhHah on 2 November 2000 21:54:58

Edited by - AhHah on 2 November 2000 22:34:28

54

Jerry Bergman, Ph.D. (psy) - JW insights

by AhHah in

jw
friends

this site also contains articles by ken raines, who seems to have developed the site.. url http://www.premier1.net/~raines/.

url http://www.premier1.net/~raines/story.html (ken raines).

url http://www.premier1.net/~raines/papers.html (j. bergman).

AhHah

Here are a few links for those who are interested.

I did not read the links, only the summary presented here. I hardly think that enough data has been gathered about the witnesses to make such an assessment. I think that Jerry's bias against the society prevents him from making any impartial assessment. I think the man is guilty (perhaps unkowingly so) of manipulation of limited data and of taking some rather creative liberties with that data.

I don’t have time to read everything.

Wouldn't you agree that it is helpful for thinking persons to have access to a dissenting opinion -- an opinion that one cannot find in the WT publicatons?

Only if that opinion is accurate.

Are his opinions scientific? That is the question that comes up and most posters here seem to feel that the man is not being scientifically objective.

But, as a doctor, he does not have the right to present his personal opinions as if they were somehow scientific. He should clearly differentiate between medical and personal opinions.

I don’t have time to read everything.

I disagree with the WTS on many things. That does not mean that I consider them the devil. There are doctrines and organizational procedures with which I do agree. Some people have a difficult time understanding that it would seem.

I think that Jerry's bias against the society prevents him from making any impartial assessment. I think the man is guilty (perhaps unkowingly so) of manipulation of limited data and of taking some rather creative liberties with that data.

I don’t have time to read everything. "Hey,that's just me. I have no degree!"

Everyone is entitled to dismiss anything they want without ever reading it and to form and express their opinion on that basis. I personally enjoy reading JW relevant research and then drawing my own conclusions.

Lest we forget, and I don't see how we can, given our experiences, the WTS goal is to ensnare people with slick talk and to retrain them to not think objectively or independently. Many xJW's harbor fear of deserting "God's organization" sometimes years after they leave. The WT mind control machine does it's job and leaves it's mark long after one has bailed out.

Edited by - AhHah on 2 November 2000 17:58:35

Edited by - AhHah on 2 November 2000 18:2:5

54

Jerry Bergman, Ph.D. (psy) - JW insights

by AhHah in

jw
friends

this site also contains articles by ken raines, who seems to have developed the site.. url http://www.premier1.net/~raines/.

url http://www.premier1.net/~raines/story.html (ken raines).

url http://www.premier1.net/~raines/papers.html (j. bergman).

AhHah

Path,

I appreciate the sentiments of your last post.

However, since I posted this thread, your comments about the articles sending people down the path of hate and being at odds with the reason people post here -- necessarily DOES reflect on me personally. For that reason, I felt compelled to defend my reasons for the post, and my impressions of the articles that I have read, even though I do not enjoy having been put in this position. I hope that I have established some credibility with the readers and the posters on this forum and that my motives are clear to those who have been reading my posts. I would be very disappointed, if by my silence regarding your post, some new reader were to mistakenly conclude that I am hate-motivated. I am glad that wasn't your intention by your post.

Now that this unpleasant, but necessary business is out of the way, I look forward to doing as you suggested -- listening.

54

Jerry Bergman, Ph.D. (psy) - JW insights

by AhHah in

jw
friends

this site also contains articles by ken raines, who seems to have developed the site.. url http://www.premier1.net/~raines/.

url http://www.premier1.net/~raines/story.html (ken raines).

url http://www.premier1.net/~raines/papers.html (j. bergman).

AhHah

Path,

I can almost understand your reaction if you have only read the conclusions that I pasted (and subsequently removed from my posts for that very reason). However, I still do not see any evidence of hate, but negativity most definitely. Since the reality is that there is much negative about the JW experience, IMO, there is a real need for the negative information to be made available. Even if his bias and negative opinion make his writings interesting only to ex-JWs then I believe they still have value, after having read his articles. Have you actually read any of them?

The fact that his training qualifies him to make educated studies of his own experiences as well as the available empirical data, I believe makes them worth some consideration. Also, I have not seen much of a similar perspective available elsewhere.

Based on your posts I believe that you may be missing the point of his articles and their value. Again, might this be because you haven't read them?

I think its both counter-productive to the "cause" and I think it sends people down the wrong path. The path of hate. And ultimately that is why most who post here are here, because they really want to fight the hate. Hence, the minimal support for your links

I don't understand why you equate negative conclusions with a "path of hate". IMO, his writings do not have the earmarks of hate literature. He suggests nothing that I have read that I would consider hateful or reflective of the small-minded bigotry of typical "hate literature".

If by your quote above, you are suggesting that I personally am advocating hate for the JW org or any of its members, I can assure you that you are mistaken (and I resent the implication). Hate is a very self-destructive and counter-productive emotion. Even justified anger for misrepresentation and injustices endured, should, in my opinion, eventually be replaced by acceptance and one should move on with other positive activities which bring happiness and fulfillment.

His articles may contain insights for some that have endured negative experiences that will allow them to better understand their effects, and hopefully move on with a productive life.

What exactly is the motivation for your posts, especially if you haven't read the articles? Is there some specific quote that you found offensive? It was not my intention to offend anyone by posting his conclusions.

Also, please do not misunderstand my comments on this post to mean that I am necessarily in agreement with all of his conclusions.

I personally enjoy reading JW relevant research and then drawing my own conclusions. Perhaps others may feel the same way. My only concern here is that you or anyone else might mistake any of my personal comments to be hate-motivated. I assure you that they are not.