AhHah

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Posts by AhHah

• 
  33

  The divinity of Jesus as the Christ

  by Theophilus in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  i have been curious why the jw's and other cults claim that the bible does not support the notion of the christ as divine (god).

  can anyone offer an explanation?

  my reading of the texts brings me to that conclusion.

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  AhHah

  Theo,

  Phil. 2:6 is a verse that has troubled me for a long time. It is usually contextually cross-referenced to John 1:1 and Col. 1:15-17. All of these scriptures are usually used to support the trinity. Not surprisingly, the NW translation of all of these scriptures is used by the WT society to argue for Christ NOT being God and NOT part of a trinity.

  After your post I reviewed Phil. 2:1-11 in the interlinear translations I have as well as six other Bible translations that I have at home, and read a Bible Commentary discussion of those verses. I am still unclear as to how they should be understood. Trinitarians make a convincing argument with these verses as well as John 1 and Colossians 1. The WT society makes a convincing argument for their translation of the same verses.

  I find myself going back to the overall context of the Gospels and Christ's references to the Father being greater than him, praying to the Father, rebuking those who called him good -- only the Father is good, coming to do the will of the Father -- not his own will, directing attention always to the Father and not to himself, asking God why he had forsaken him as he died, etc.

  Why all the humility and subjection to the Father, if Christ was God himself? Why not declare himself to be God and accept worship as such? How could the sacrifice of Christ as a man be a valid ransom if he did not actually die, since God is immortal and cannot die? Why did Christ have to be resurrected after being dead for parts of three days (the sign of Jonah) if he was God? If the trinity is so important, why did Christ not attempt to teach or explain the concept while amongst men?

  I know that the pat trinitarian answer to all of these questions is that the God the Father is not the same as God the Son, even though they along with the Holy Ghost (I always laugh when I say that) are all three part of God -- co-equal, co-eternal, co-existent. Maybe it is my JW indoctrination, but I have a difficult time accepting such a concept of our Creator. And it still seems to contradict the spirit of Christ's words in the Gospel, taken at face value, with no pre-conceived notion of a trinity.

  This kind of doctrinal confusion from the same book makes me really question its source.

  Edited by - AhHah on 21 November 2000 3:54:34
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  9

  What exactly is an apostate?

  by notsureofmyself in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  would someone care to give me their definition of an apostate and what it means to them?

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  AhHah

  NotSure,

  I could quote the literal definition, but I suspect you already know it, and that's not what you are looking for.

  Is your question more about how God feels about persons who reject their religious group? Whether or not God still accepts the worship of those who reject organized religion (especially apostate organizations)?

  Recent threads have touched on whether or not Christianity requires a human organization with authority over the worship and standing of individuals. I personally believe that Christ removed the need for a human religious authority. The individual Christian is repsonsible for his own worship and decisions.

  In some cases Christians may choose to limit their own association with those that they feel represent a spiritual danger to them, but not with a lack of love or with malice or judgement. Those who reject the spirit of Christianity and invalidate it (such as JWs do with all of their pharisaical rules and regulations) are subject to being rejected by Christians who do not share their worldly abuse of Christianity. I believe that the JW org is an apostate organization, in that they have rejected and invalidated Christianity by their practices. As such, an individual Christian may rightly avoid association with them, so as to avoid spiritual contamination -- if one were to use the same scriptures that the WT society uses to justify the rejection of apostates. I believe that it should be an individual decision.

  God then must ultimately choose whose worship he finds acceptable, while considering the conscience of all individuals who are attempting with an honest heart to be noble, spiritual persons. I suspect that persons of any and all and no religious affiliation may be successful in varying degrees in that effort. I find it absurd to think that Almighty God would judge a person's eternal prospects based upon the limited understanding of any human group who dares to claim to represent him and speak for him. I find it offensive that any religion or person (are you listening MDS?) would dare to make such a claim. I suspect that God does also.

  For these reasons I find much of the Bible to be ridiculous in what it would have us believe about the Almighty God. Common sense and our inner sense of justice (that God put there?) tells us that much of it cannot be true. Those who are too afraid to admit the uncertainty of such a position, will instead defend the Bible's contradictory teachings as a mystery designed to test us. One could make the same claim of any other confused, and contradictory literary work -- we don't need God to produce confusion and complexity -- we can and have done that just fine on our own.

  So, in summary, I do not worry about whose definition of apostasy my beliefs may or may not define. I am prepared to wait upon God to fully reveal the answers to my questions of our existence and purpose. If I die before that happens, I die with the confidence that I followed my conscience with an honest heart and with the best of intentions toward God and my fellow man. I know in my heart that is all that our Creator expects of us (if indeed he cares, and I really hope that he does).

  Edited by - AhHah on 21 November 2000 4:35:56
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  46

  Jehovah We'll Believe When We See Signs & M...

  by MDS in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  truly i say, no sign will be given to this generation.".

  " -- 1 cor.

  -- see 1 cor.

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  AhHah

  Simon,

  That link ( http://jhuger.com/kisshank.mv ) is hilarious, but it really drives home the foolishness of circular reasonings, doesn't it?

  Of course, a religious person's response is that one must have faith (but only in THEIR interpretation, of course). Which makes one wonder whether or not faith is really from God. All devout religious people have faith, and yet few of them totally agree on anything. So where does all of that "misled" faith come from? From Satan, of course! If it wasn't so sad, it would be as funny as "Kissing Hank's Ass". Hopefully, in some life we will all look back and laugh at how we tried to defend our stupidity and ignorance (maybe even MDS will laugh!).

  Edited by - AhHah on 20 November 2000 1:44:35
• 
  33

  The divinity of Jesus as the Christ

  by Theophilus in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  i have been curious why the jw's and other cults claim that the bible does not support the notion of the christ as divine (god).

  can anyone offer an explanation?

  my reading of the texts brings me to that conclusion.

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• 

  AhHah

  Frenchy,

  Your points are well taken. I agree that all translations have bias. To avoid it, one must read interlinear transliterations, and we all know how difficult that is.

  You asked about how Rev. 19: 1,3,4,6 are translated - they are rightly translated as Halleleujah, or Praise Jah (not Jehovah).

  My main point was that the translation of "Jehovah" for the Greek words for Lord and God is reflective of the WT society de-emphasis of Christ in their version of Christianity, and a desire to separate New Testament references to Lord and God from any possible identification with Christ (a trinitarian concept).

  It also belies their claims that the NW translation is always true to the original languages and is extremely accurate. They are guilty of exactly what they accuse other Bible translators of -- purposeful and willful bias to suit their own interpretations.

  BTW, I am NOT arguing that God is a Trinity (and I am not arguing against it either). You might enjoy reading Ray Franz' open discussion of the trinity in "In Search of Christian Freedom" before you quickly dismiss the trinity as not worthy of any serious consideration. That having been said, I still have a hard time believing that God might be a trinity. But I cannot prove it either way. All "proofs" are simply interpretations of scripture anyway. To take an inflexible position on something that cannot be proven either way is one's choice, but that does not in itself make it true, just because one believes it.

  It is no wonder that the members of Jehovah's Witnesses do not enjoy the precious and refreshing sense of liberation and freedom from enslavement that Christ offered his followers. AhHah -- I recognize this as your personal assessment of JW’s. I will not argue your viewpoint of this inasmuch as you have a right to it. But inasmuch as it is made in this context I feel obliged to state here that I do “enjoy a precious and refreshing sense of liberation and freedom from enslavement that Christ offered his followers“ while at the same time recognizing Christ to be the son of God and not God himself.

  By your response above, are you saying that you consider yourself one of Jehovah's Witnesses? Do other JW's also still consider you to be one of Jehovah's Witnesses?

  Do you believe that the teachings and practices of Jehovah's Witnesses allow the true Christian freedom that Christ offered? If your answer is yes, then I really do not understand how you can reconcile that with all of your other posts on this forum.

  Also, your response sounded very defensive, am I right? Why?

  Edited by - AhHah on 20 November 2000 1:22:37
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  46

  Jehovah We'll Believe When We See Signs & M...

  by MDS in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  truly i say, no sign will be given to this generation.".

  " -- 1 cor.

  -- see 1 cor.

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  AhHah

  MDS,

  Why no response to my last post? Did I hit a nerve?
• 
  46

  Jehovah We'll Believe When We See Signs & M...

  by MDS in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  truly i say, no sign will be given to this generation.".

  " -- 1 cor.

  -- see 1 cor.

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• 

  AhHah

  MDS,

  Again, thank you for finally making your motives for posting very clear to everyone.

  Yes, I can stand by "every word," that I have spoken, written above, and have no fear of any adverse "judgment," for I have been "commissioned" to speak my words....all the words I have spoken, above... I have authority to speak these words... including the ones where I have personally "denounced" your "stupid" friends above. I have that authority from Jehovah God, just as Jesus did

  All of God's prophets, even those who brought messages of judgement, acted in love. If you believe that you are commissioned to preach to all JW's and ex-JW's a message from God, then where is the evidence of God's love for them? Do you remember the story of Jonah? Do you remember how he was humbled by God for his attitude toward those to whom he preached a message of destruction?

  Instead of posting your endless rants on this forum, perhaps you would be better served by contemplating the experiences in your life that have caused you to become so angry and delusional. When you post these "messages of judgement from God", how do you feel? Are you regaining a modicum of self-esteem for a short while? But, then afterwards, do the self-doubts and guilt and self-hatred slowly take over again ... leading you to post yet once more so as to convince yourself that you are a prophet of God? Because if you were actually a prophet of God, that would explain why everyone else is "persecuting" you and rejects you, wouldn't it?

  Unfortunately for you, however, you are posting to persons who are good students of the Bible, with more insight than yourself. They are not fooled by your facade as you yourself are. When we occasionally try to help you see why you could not possibly speak for God, this causes you to become very agitated and even afraid, doesn't it? If we are right, and a part of you deep down knows that we are, then you must eventually face your real demons, instead of hiding behind your "prophet of God" delusion and persecution complex.

  As painful as this must be for you, are you truly happy with yourself and your life? Wouldn't you really prefer to be truly accepted and loved for who you really are? Wouldn't you prefer to read posts from these loving persons, letting you know that they relate to your pain and that they love you and want to help in any way they can? You could receive just such love and reassurances here. However, it must start with you. You must first be willing to be honest with yourself and then with us.

  If this is too difficult to do on your own, then you should consider getting professional help. The delusions only seem to be the easy way to find peace. There will still come the inevitable breakdown when the delusion crumbles, and it always does eventually. Wouldn't you prefer to find peace and acceptance sooner rather than later?

  It is your life and it is your choice. This post is not "persecution". This is an honest attempt to help you to look inside, painful as that might be. Since I do not know you, and since these are only guesses as to what is going on in your head, they could be all wrong. But, then again, maybe not.

  In any event, please do not continue to insult our intelligence with your delusional posts. We are not buying it any more than you are deep down. Those who post here are decent, loving persons. A loving God cares for them and loves them, even if you don't.
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  46

  Jehovah We'll Believe When We See Signs & M...

  by MDS in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  truly i say, no sign will be given to this generation.".

  " -- 1 cor.

  -- see 1 cor.

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• 

  AhHah

  Hey MDS,

  By displaying such "ignorance" and stupidity in your above remarks, you have removed all doubt to the "outsider" that we are truly a "screwed" up bunch, truly divisive with no hope of clear direction in sight. We are BEYOND help spiritually.

  Somehow, I think we may be lacking here, in this special quality...intellectual capacity...

  Don't look now, but your motivations for posting are showing up loud and clear.

  And to hear someone who comes across like an ignorant, deranged, mental case accuse those here who have already demonstrated their clear thinking abilities and real wisdom, not to mention their love, makes me very angry.

  You just blew any chance you ever had to convince anyone that you could possibly have anything of spiritual value.

  You are unworthy of any response from those who post here. I for one will take your advice and never respond to any more of your posts -- if you keep your word this time and go away.
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  9

  God's Kingdom-Can Its Coming Be Pre-Announced?

  by MDS in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  the kingdom of god -- is it pre-announced with outstanding, observable events going before its coming?

  jesus said the following,.

  at luke 17:20, 21 we read:.

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  AhHah

  Alrighty, then. Well that one sentence certainly clears it all up for me! I have no more questions. Anyone else have any questions? No? Well, then, motion to adjourn. Do I hear a second motion?
• 
  9

  God's Kingdom-Can Its Coming Be Pre-Announced?

  by MDS in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  the kingdom of god -- is it pre-announced with outstanding, observable events going before its coming?

  jesus said the following,.

  at luke 17:20, 21 we read:.

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  AhHah

  MDS,

  I am just curious.

  Assume, for arguments sake, that all who read your posts here were convinced that you are a prophet and that you are revealing new understandings of Bible prophecy for our time.

  Other than believing, what exactly is it that you would have them do about it? What is the next step? (please phrase your answer in one sentence of your own words, if you can)
• 
  2

  Best thing that ever happened

  by AhHah in

  1. social
  2. entertainment

  i would like to dedicate this song to my wife (puppylove) for our wedding anniversary.

  i can't even imagine where i would be right now without her love and support.

  i love you, sweetheart!.

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  AhHah

  I would like to dedicate this song to my wife (puppylove) for our wedding anniversary. I can't even imagine where I would be right now without her love and support. I love you, sweetheart!

  The Best Thing That Ever Happened To Me
  Gladys Knight & The Pips
  Written by Jim Weatherly
  -

  I've had my share of life's ups and downs
  But fate's been kind, the downs have been few
  I guess you could say that I've been lucky
  Well, I guess you could say that it's all because of you
  -
  If anyone should ever write my life story
  For whatever reason there might be
  Ooo, you'll be there between each line of pain and glory
  'Cause you're the best thing that ever happened to me
  Ah, you're the best thing that ever happened to me
  -
  Oh, there have been times when times were hard
  But always somehow I made it, I made it through
  'Cause for every moment that I've spent hurting
  There was a moment that I spent, ah, just loving you
  -
  If anyone should ever write my life story
  For whatever reason there might be
  Oh, you'll be there between each line of pain and glory
  'Cause you're the best thing that ever happened to me
  Oh, you're the best thing that ever happened to me
  I know, you're the best thing, oh, that ever happened to me
  -

  - entered the Billboard Top 40 the week of March 9, 1974 and
  stayed for 13 weeks, peaking at #3 the week of April 27, 1974
  - soul cover version of Ray Price's #83 country ballad from 1973
  - a version by The Persuaders, released March 2, 1974, reached #85

  lyrics posted courtesy of http://www.lyricfind.com/

  Edited by - AhHah on 17 November 2000 18:14:35