Jehovah We'll Believe When We See Signs & M...

by MDS 46 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • MDS
    MDS

    "JEHOVAH, WE'LL BELIEVE WHEN WE SEE A "SIGN" OR MIRACLE..."

    Does not that heading sound familiar...

    Yes, it is the sound of the faithless... the faithless Israelites of old. Those back in Jesus' day. Constantly, asking for a "sign," a miracle from God, BEFORE, yes, BEFORE they will "believe" God's message. Just as Jesus said at Luke 9:41:

    "...O faithless and twisted generation, how long must I continue with you and put up with you?..."

    Yes, the "self-satisfied," Jewish nation of Jesus' day, God's Covenanted people, were completely, "faithless," under their time of "inspection," and as a people, as a nation, just as Jesus said. They were incapable of "discerning" this particular time of "inspection." -- Proverbs 14:14; Luke 19:44

    A SIGN OR MIRACLE -- WHAT IS IT?

    But actually, what is a "sign," ... a "sign" from God? Well, the word translated "sign," (Greek: semeion)in many instances can mean a miracle from God, as noted in the NWT, for instance. It can be rendered, "miracle," "sign," "token, and "wonder," depending upon which translation you may be using. It is defined as being a demonstration of the "supernatural," such as the hand and works of God. Thus, we have the word, "sign."

    We are shown in scripture that when Jesus performed his (2nd) Second Miracle, the healing of a boy with fever who was at the point of dying, the Bible calls this, the "second sign" performed by Jesus. -- John 4:54 NWT

    So, we could say, a "sign," then can be thought of in many instances in the scriptures as a "miracle" of God. And this is what Jesus performed many times while on earth during his ministry.

    However, we find on many different occasions, Jesus spoke against "Israel's" requests for "signs," miracles to be given them. We can note just a few of these references where this is made clear for us.

    Matt. 12:39 - "...A wicked and adulterous generation keeps on seeking for a sign, but no sign will be given it except the sign of Jonah the prophet."

    Matt. 16:4 - "A wicked and adulterous generation keeps on seeking for a sign, but no sign will be given it except the sign of Jonah..."

    Mark 8:12 - "So he groaned deeply with his spirit, and said: "Why does this generation seek a sign? Truly I say, No sign will be given to this generation."

    Even the wicked political rulers wanted to see a "sign" from Jesus...

    Luke 23:8 - When Herod saw Jesus he rejoiced greatly, for over a considerable time he was wanting to see him because of having heard about him, and he was hoping to see some sign performed by him."

    Of course, he did not get to see any "sign" or powerful work, by Jesus. No, Jehovah God, did not approve of such a powerful work to be done in front of this wicked ruler, in his behalf. It was not granted.

    In the book of John, an interesting situation developed, which bears light upon our discussion here, on faith, and seeing a sign from God, a miracle.

    "However, when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, at its festival, many people put their faith in his name, viewing his signs that he was performing. But Jesus himself was not entrusting himself to them because of his knowing them all..." -- John 2:23, 24

    Now, we must ask, why did not Jesus "entrust himself" to these ones, who had witnessed his powerful works...why? Did not the scripture say that "they put their faith in his name?" So, then, why did Jesus DISTRUST, refused to "entrust" himself to these ones?

    It is because Jesus knew, they did not have true faith, the kind of faith that one could depend upon, or rely upon. These same people, when the going got rough, would indeed ABANDON Jesus, in times of persecution and tribulation, when pressure would be put upon them, by the religious leaders of their times, and the political rulers of that day. They could not be depended upon. They did not have, nor manifest the true faith, the kind that Jesus was looking for in Israel.

    But one could ask the question:

    If God is Almighty, and has demonstrated on numerous occasions within the scriptures that He is fully "up to the task," yes, fully able to perform outstanding feats, supernatural phenomenon, that completely amazed those who beheld the great miraculous, works of Jehovah, our God during their times, then, why,

    ...yes, why do we say, He would OBJECT to modern-day Israel, today's Christian in our modern-day times, a people Covenanted to Him, today's members of the New Covenant instituted by Jesus Christ himself, why do we say, Jehovah would clearly OBJECT to the giving of "signs"/miracles to His people?

    Still, most people, very many say, today, that Jehovah God is perfectly willing and able to indeed, perform miracles for and in behalf of His People, Christians, Covenanted people to Himself.

    They feel, "...surely, if one would ask Jehovah God for a "sign," a miracle, as a christian, surely He would not find that OFFENSIVE, would He?"

    Is that so?

    Well, isn't it true, members of the New Covenant, modern-day Christians today, as well as those of the first century, are privileged to be in such a position, because God REPLACED a faithless nation, ancient Israel, who was constantly asking for "signs?" Isn't that true? Also, after God presented "signs," or miracles to the nation, isn't it true, that these given "signs," "portents," "powerful works," actually, DID NOTHING to add to their faithfulness in carrying out their duties and obligations before their God, YHWH, JHVH, JEHOVAH and his Son Jesus Christ?

    Yes, the nation failed, and was replaced by the Christian congregation of the first century, made up of a "remnant" of Jews and a heavy majority of uncircumcised "Gentiles," in fulfillment of Matthew 21:43. The nation was replaced! They failed, even though, they were presented with many, many "signs," from God.

    Paul himself once commented when referring to the miraculous work of speaking in tongues,

    "Consequently tongues are for a sign, not to the believers, but to the unbelievers, whereas PROPHESYING is, not for the unbelievers, but for the believers."

    Further, verse 21 of 1 Cor. 14th chapter, had clearly mentioned this:

    "In the Law it is written: "with the tongues of foreigners and with the lips of strangers I will speak to this people, and yet not even then will they give heed to me," says Jehovah." -- 1 Cor. 14:21

    Yes, even then, after giving "signs," like speaking in tongues, still, Jehovah knew that Israel would not listen. The "sign," the giving of the "sign," then, would accomplish NOTHING, since they were a "faithless generation," a "faithless" nation, a "faithless" people.

    Thus, we find the miraculous work of giving a "sign," during Paul's day, like speaking in tongues, was really there to capture the attention of NOT ISRAEL, no, but attention of the "unbeliever," the one that does not know anything about God. The prospective "christian," of Paul's day...but not the "believer," the one that had already dedicated His life to do Jehovah's Will, ... it was NOT for him, the established christian. Jehovah had provided the explaining of Bible Prophecy, for the experienced "believer," the established christian himself...God gave him "prophecy" to strengthen his Faith. Yes, "prophecy," to edify the mature christian. -- See 1 Cor. 14:22

    TRUE CHRISTIANS -- SHAPED IN THE IMAGE OF ABRAHAM, "THE FATHER OF ALL THOSE HAVING FAITH". -- Romans 4:11

    At Romans 4:11 Paul reveals something very special about ALL CHRISTIANS, all of spiritual Israel... something they ALL HAVE IN COMMON. Let's notice this:

    "And he [Abraham] received a sign, namely, circumcision, as a seal of the righteousness by the faith he had while in his uncircumcised state, that he might be THE FATHER OF ALL THOSE HAVING FAITH..." -- Romans 4:11

    Yes, Abraham, became the "father of all those having" or possessing "faith." He became the model, the example of one who demonstrated explicit, unwavering FAITH before Jehovah God. So much so, he is recognized by Jehovah God and Jesus, as being the "father of all those having faith." What an honor!

    But, the point we want to get out this verse here, is that "Faith," then, is the key characteristic that differentiates the spiritual Israelite, from the natural Israelite...Faith.

    The first century congregation, God's Covenanted People, then, was made of "spiritual Israelites," spiritual men and women, who had SPIRITUAL QUALITIES...spiritual qualities, like "faith, "hope," "charity/love," ... as demonstrated by Abraham and other faithful men of old, who were of the natural Jewish Line. Christians, then, are those who are in the New Covenant, and are spiritual Israelites, individuals who demonstrate, BEYOND A SHADOW OF A DOUBT, that they indeed, yes, have FAITH LIKE ABRAHAM.

    They are "contracted", or they have willingly vowed into a Covenant, the New Covenant, that shows, they MUST HAVE FAITH, the kind of Faith like Abraham, no exceptions. In this way, then, Abraham, can indeed, become their "father," as mentioned Romans 4:11.

    WHAT IS FAITH?

    So, then, what is Faith? Hebrews 11:1 gives us this definition where it says:

    "Faith is the assured expection of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities THOUGH NOT BEHELD."

    Did you notice that last part of that definition of "faith?" Yes, that last little part...

    "...THOUGH NOT BEHELD."

    It means, you don't need to see anything, to believe! No, the Christian, does not see anything, does not NEED God to give proof, God to provide something to see, before he can believe, or demonstrate faith. The "reality" is before him, even though he does not SEE or "behold" anything, like a "sign," or a miracle." He DOES NOT NEED TO "SEE" OR "BEHOLD" A "SIGN," OR MIRACLE, at all, to really, really, BELIEVE the message is from God. That's faith!

    Accordingly, 2 Cor. 5:7 says of true Christians, those who have true faith, it says of these ones:

    "for we are walking by faith, NOT BY SIGHT."

    Or, we could say, we are not walking by "signs," or "miracles," ... things that one can behold.

    2 Cor. 4:18 adds this thought, for the benefit of all true christians:

    "while we keep our eyes, not on the things seen, but on the THINGS UNSEEN..."

    Yes, real Faith...things "unseen." Not "things" that can be "seen," like "signs," and miracles. No, these are the "enemy" of true Faith, true belief in God's Message.

    Paul also said of our "father of faith," Abraham...

    "...yet BASED ON HOPE he had faith..."

    Yes, "hope," was also important to Abraham.

    Romans 8:24 says this for the benefit of all true christians who wish to display qualities pleasing to Jehovah God and Jesus Christ:

    "...hope that is seen is NOT HOPE, for when a man SEES A THING, does he hope for it?" -- Romans 8:24

    No, a man, when he "sees a thing," the desired thing, then he does not "hope" for it any longer. He DOES NOT HOPE FOR IT ANY LONGER... no because he has SEEN IT!

    This would be the opposite of "faith."

    KEY POINT:When we "see" the thing we have desired...then, there is no need anymore for faith. We do not demonstrate "faith," anymore. This is because we have "seen," or have "beheld" the desired object or thing, thus no faith is needed upon our part to believe that we dealing with God, and all things will come true.

    The next verse continues:

    "...But if we hope for what we DO NOT SEE, we keep on waiting for it with endurance."

    And that is the point. We now can display, the Christian quality of "endurance," another Godly quality. We do this out of "faith." We endure, even though, to the outsider, we have not seen anything to support our position.

    For example:

    Like Christians being thrown to Lions in the Roman arenas, rather than burn incense to the emperor.

    Yes, to the outsider, this is foolishness, to lose ones life over something so "small," so "simple." But not so to the genuine, christian who is "full of faith." (Acts 6:5) No, but to this one, the one who has faith, then this is sound, and reasonable positioning, knowing Jehovah God requires from him, "exclusive devotion", and "worship." The rendering of "sacred service" to Him ONLY. -- Luke 4:8; Romans 8:24, 25

    So, we do not need to "see," visualize," observe, peruse any "sign," or miracle, to manifest FAITH, to believe in the Word, the Message of God.

    For example:

    When Priest Zechariah was told he and his wife was to bear a child in his old age, he doubted. And to express this "doubt," yes, he did the unthinkable, yes, he ASKED FOR A SIGN," from God. Obviously, this Priest, had to be acquainted with the example of Abraham, and Sarah, and how they bore a child in their old age. He was fully acquainted with this situation, the situation of Abraham, and yet, he doubted, he lacked faith. And how he expressed the doubt, this lack of faith, he ASKED FOR A "SIGN" be given him...so that he could "believe" this was going to come true for him.

    Notice what God said back to him for this "little mistake," as some would call this...this asking for a "sign," from God...a Priest asking for a "sign." ... someone who should know better.

    "...I was sent forth to speak with you and declare the good news of these things to you. But, look! you will be silent and not able to speak until the day that these things take place, BECAUSE YOU DID NOT BELIEVE MY WORDS, which will be fulfilled in their appointed time." -- Luke 1:20

    Yes, he did not "believe," he did not "believe," the message, the Word of God...and that's all he had done, simple did'nt "believe, the fantastic, phenomenal news, the "good news," the "thing heard," from God. -- Isa. 53:1; John 12:38

    KEY SCRIPTURE: ROMANS 10:16, 21

    The biggest problem prevalent today among ex-Jehovah's Witnesses and present, their biggest, most profound problem they have, under the tutelage of the WTS/GB, their major flaw, is their inability to "Know Jehovah." -- Jeremiah 31:34; Hebrews 8:11

    For example, they do not know the foolishness and folly of asking Jehovah God, The "God of Faith" (Isa. 65:16) for a "sign," at this late stage of the game. To Jehovah, this is a TOTAL INSULT, and is TOTALLY OFFENSIVE TO HIM. Whether they know it or not, this type of request, reveals them, to God as not knowing anything about His Personality and Will. This type of request, really, in God's Mind, eliminates them as "children of Abraham," the "father of all those who have faith."

    And by so doing, making this type of stupid request to the God of Faith, Jehovah, they are actually SINNING in total "disobedience," since they are NON-DOERS of the word or message from God, when it is presented to them, as "good news," as God's message, which IS NOT accompanied by any miraculous works at all. Because true "faith," would allow all of them, all of true christians, all spiritual Israelites, to ACCEPT THAT MESSAGE, no matter how fantastic, phenomenal, astonishing, or strange/foreign it sounded to the human ear!

    No excuses...

    So, they are considered by Jehovah God, then, DISOBEDIENT CHILDREN, like Adam and Eve, sinning. They now, then, "DISOBEY THE GOOD NEWS," or message of God. They commit "sin," before Jehovah, they are "disobedient," because they did not "believe," or have "faith," and so are then, considered among those who are "disobedient toward the Good News." They want to "see" something BEFORE they can believe...a sin, an act of "disobedience before Our God, Jehovah, the God of Abraham.

    2 Thess.1:8 says of these "disobedient ones," those who are fake "Israelites," fake christians, those who refuse to believe, but constantly want a "sign," it says this:

    "in a flaming fire, as he [Jesus] brings vengeance upon those who do not know God and those who DO NOT OBEY THE GOOD NEWS about our Lord Jesus." -- 2 Thessalonians 1:8

    These ones spoken of here are not "worldly" people, outsiders of the organization of Jehovah's Witnesses international. As commonly thought of by the WTS and JWs, no, no, but they are the "faithless," among who are true hypocrites, the ones who carry the Name of God upon themselves. They are JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES, the House of God, the "FIRST" to receive "judgment" from the mighty hand of God, in these "Last Days." -- 1 Peter 4:17

    And the Bible backs up this position...history, yes, simply repeats itself,... Jehovah destroys, His own people, like at 586/587 BCE, and 70 CE, yes, the city that stood for His Great Name, Jerusalem, the temple that carried His Great Name, the Priesthood that carried His Great Name, with the "Holy Sign of Dedication" upon their foreheads which reads, "Holiness Belongs To YHWH", yes that Priesthood of ancient Israel! They were the People that carried His Name upon themselves, the nation, Israel, even as we say today, even modern-day, anti-typical "Israel" of our day, Jehovah's Witnesses by way of comparison. -- Please read Numbers 6:27; Deuteronomy 26:1-3; 1 Kings 8:41-43; Jeremiah 25:29; Daniel 9:19; Acts 15:14-17.

    They are Jehovah's Witnesses, and yes, they "do not know God," they do not know that He is, indeed, the "God of Faith" as Isaiah 65:16 says of him, thus, they "do not Obey," His Divine
    message...simple... the "Report", literal rendering of the "thing heard" based upon Isa. 53:1 and John 12:38. (See footnote of rendering for "thing heard" as the "Report," NWT Large Print Ref. Bible.)

    A lack of Faith, prevents them from listening, just as Satan wants.
    By doing this, the implementation of the "Abrahamic Covenant," is then, held up, retarded, held back, thwarted because,

    "Israel," modern-day, spiritual "Israel," is to be, the primary instrument God is to use to implement, the everlasting Abrahamic Covenant, which would indeed "bless" all mankind upon the earth. Yes, "Israel," acts as Priest, a priestly/Kingly nation, a royal nation," to assist ALL OTHER NATIONS to "KNOW JEHOVAH." -- Hebrews 8:11

    But our problem, is the same as in the past...Israel, modern-day Israel, when under inspection, is to be found in complete and utter Apostasy Against God, at this time, and must be "disciplined," and later, "restored," to God's favor, the same as in the past with ancient Israel. Jesus indicated this for us at Matthew 19:28.

    It states:

    "Jesus said to them: "Truly I say to you, in the re-creation , when the Son of man sits down upon his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also yourselves sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." -- Matthew 19:28

    In this verse, Jesus uses the Greek word, Palingensis, in which the NWT translates as "re-creation." However, the same word, could have been translated as "regeneration," "re-birth," "renewal", "restoration," of all things." -- See Vines Expository of New Testament Words, under "Regeneration."

    Thus indicating a needed "rejuvenation," or "renovation," spiritually speaking of the House of Israel, during the last days.

    Vines Expository of New Testament Words," comments on the use of the particular, "Palingenesis," this unique word, in the Greek language,

    "...In Matthew 19:28, the word is used in the Lord's Discourse, in the wider sense as the restoration of all things, when as a result of the second advent of Christ, Jehovah, sets His king on his holy hill of Zion, and Israel, NOW IN APOSTASY, is RESTORED to its destined status, in the recognition and under the benigh sovereignty of its messiah. Thereby will be accomplished the deliverance of the world from the power and the deception of Satan, and from the despotic an anti-christian rulers of the nations."

    As mentioned above, "Israel," is to be found in complete, "APOSTASY," in the last days. This is largely due to the nefarious activity of the "man of lawlessness," who would have to be "revealed" in his own due time, just before the Lord destroys him, in the last days. This is the one who presides as a "god" right within God's own household. The one that must become an "object of reverence," so much so, that "he sits down in the temple of The God," Jehovah, and "publicly shows himself to be a god," by lording it over the flock of Jehovah's sheep, His Temple, His Covenanted People...Jehovah's Witnesses. -- 2 Thess. 2:3-12.

    They become, "sheep" that are "skinned and thrown about," just Jesus observed during his day, the aftermath of the Pharisees and Sadducees' leadership....aka, modern-day WTS/GB of Jehovah's Witnesses. This is why, Israel, is no ignorant of Jehovah's purposes, as we can see, and as demonstrated on this board, over and over again.

    Is it any wonder then, that JWs, DO NOT "KNOW JEHOVAH" (Hebrews 8:11) to start with...thus cannot be used by God to teach all other nations. -- Please compare Gen. 22:18 and Exodus 19:6.

    JW's and ex-JW's are yes, after being taught by the WTS/GB aka "man of lawlessnesss," have fared badly, rendered COMPLETELY IGNORANT of Jehovah's Grand Purposes...just read some of the comments on this board, and that fact becomes quite plan. Yes, Jehovah's Witnesses, are Sheep, Skinned and thrown about... And they are to be most "pitied." -- See Matt. 9:36

    So...Satan now feels he has foiled, vitiated God's Grand Purpose, the implementation of the Great "Abrahamic Covenant." The "nations," that Jehovah purposes to bless by means of His Kingdom. -- See Isa. 2:2-4; Micah 4:1-4; Revelation 21:24-26; 22:17

    So then, is it any wonder, the scriptures say, "It is impossible to please him without faith." -- Hebrews 11:6

    And every christian, every spiritual "Israelite," then, should know this. No exceptions.

    Thus, Romans 10:16 then says for our benefit:

    "Nevertheless, they DID NOT OBEY THE GOOD NEWS. For Isaiah says: "Jehovah, who put faith in the THING HEARD from us? ... But as respects Israel he says: "All day long I have spread out myhands toward a people that is disobedient and talks back."

    Yes, "Israel," loves to "talk back," smart remarks, chiding, deriding comments, always pours forth from the mouth of FAITHLESS, "Israel," -- Modern-day Israel of our times, Jehovah's Witnesses, the "faithless ones," most reprehensible of professed christians of our times...the ones carrying God's Name upon them.

    But, Jehovah God is going to "replace," them, with a nation that will bear "fruit," that will demonstrate "faith," ... those today, that may have never even "searched for God," before and yet, knows all of them, all 200 million of them. He will choose them, in replacement of modern-day "Israel," faithless "Israel," who today, stubbornly, and foolishly, is still

    ASKING FOR A "SIGN," A MIRACLE Pathetic!

    But as scriptures show, those cited above, God's Word is True, it is all true and dependable. Just as Jehovah God, has not changed in character, dependable, and is still...still, the "God of faith." (Isa. 65:16)

    Therefore, in complete harmony with that fact, we can expect that He will implement just what His magnificent Will demands. We can expect, Jehovah God will accept nothing less than COMPLETE FAITH from ALL christians today, His Covenanted People, modern-day "Israel," and will RIGHTFULLY expect them to display genuine christian "faith," in His message, His Word, which will thus PRESENT NO "SIGNS" or MIRACLES, to any of the faithless among "Israel," -- the so-called christians of today, called Jehovah's Witnesses, ex- or present. This fact must be held true, since these very ones, are in effect, wishing to REPUDIATE the wonderful example left us by Abraham, the "father of all those truly having faith." This they do either wittingly or unwittingly, but surely foolishly, by ASKING FOR A "SIGN" OR MIRACLE to be given them from God, in these "last days."[/i] -- Romans 4:18[/b]

    MDS

    Edited by - MDS on 19 November 2000 0:43:53

  • waiting
    waiting

    Why cannot people learn to speak the truth? I have, I think taught two, perhaps three, Indian colleagues to do so. It will probably wreck their careers. J.F.S. Haldane

    waiting

  • RedhorseWoman
    RedhorseWoman

    Wow! That's one long post! Very impressive. Too long to read, but VERY impressive.

  • MDS
    MDS

    To: "Waiting" & "Red Horse Woman,"

    I hope you people are not Jehovah's Witnesses, really I hope not, ... because if you are...you have just proved my case.

    By displaying such "ignorance" and stupidity in your above remarks, you have removed all doubt to the "outsider" that we are truly a "screwed" up bunch, truly divisive with no hope of clear direction in sight. We are BEYOND help spiritually.

    We must be disciplined, severely, to bring us back to our senses, just as Isaiah 30:26 brings out.

    It states for "Israel," this future:

    "And the light of the full moon must become as the light of the glowing sun; and the very light of the glowing sun will become seven times as much, like the light of seven days, in the day that Jehovah binds up the BREAKDOWN OF HIS PEOPLE and heals even the SEVERE WOUND resulting from the STROKE BY HIM." -- Isaiah 30:26

    BTW, you may not know this, but this is the "Bible Research" Forum...for those who are ardent, studious JWs...those who are at least, willing and able to, READ THE MATERIAL, and have the "intellectual capacity" to absorb what has been said. I suspect they are also able to check the Biblical references, displaying the unique and manifest ability to FIND THE SCRIPTURES IN THE BIBLE.

    Somehow, I think we may be lacking here, in this special quality...intellectual capacity...

    1 John 5:20 shows we must possess "intellectual capacity" to be fully pleasing to God. Perhaps, we can pray for such things, if we do not possess such. Just a suggestion.

    MDS

    PS: If you quit posting to me, maybe I'll go away...just a hint...

    Edited by - MDS on 19 November 2000 0:46:50

  • AhHah
    AhHah

    Hey MDS,

    By displaying such "ignorance" and stupidity in your above remarks, you have removed all doubt to the "outsider" that we are truly a "screwed" up bunch, truly divisive with no hope of clear direction in sight. We are BEYOND help spiritually.

    Somehow, I think we may be lacking here, in this special quality...intellectual capacity...

    Don't look now, but your motivations for posting are showing up loud and clear.

    And to hear someone who comes across like an ignorant, deranged, mental case accuse those here who have already demonstrated their clear thinking abilities and real wisdom, not to mention their love, makes me very angry.

    You just blew any chance you ever had to convince anyone that you could possibly have anything of spiritual value.

    You are unworthy of any response from those who post here. I for one will take your advice and never respond to any more of your posts -- if you keep your word this time and go away.

  • MDS
    MDS

    Hey Ah Hah:

    "Hope of Convincing you...?" ... Entertain any hope of Convincing you"? What? I'm sorry but you flatter yourself, really.

    What makes you think I'm interested in "convincing", persuading or winning over you or your comrades? I'm not in the door-to-door ministry trying to "convince" anybody of anything. You personally, are not even, a "consideration," to me...nor any of your "friends." Its not even "personal" to me, to start with.

    I noticed your "friends" can take pot shots at me, but I'm not allowed to "defend," myself...huh... is that they way it is?

    You are mistaken. I will speak what is on my mind, and at any time too.

    John 3:18 says:

    "He that exercises faith in him is not to be judged. He that does not exercise faith has been judged already..."

    Your faith, your faith, will indeed judge you...God will do that.

    My assignment is simple:

    If you don't listen, completely, you are as Jesus said, "ALREADY JUDGED," by Jehovah God.

    What I write, comes from Jehovah God, direct, as direct as it can get. If you hate what I write, then you hate Jehovah and Jesus, simple as that. Believe you me, Jehovah and Jesus are watching, and they know who you are. Your real name, you, the person...judgment has commenced...

    Your asinine comments above, purposed to "defend" the honor of your "friends," changes nothing.

    You will be "judged" by the things you say.

    If my assignment comes from God, what do you think you people mean to me? And what do your words "angry," "venomous," words mean...What?

    I'll give you one guess...nothing.

    Matt:12:36, 37 says:

    "I tell you that every unprofitable saying that men speak, they will render an account concerning it on Judgment Day; for by your words you will be declared righteous, and by your words you will be condemned."

    Strong counsel...

    Now, my conscience is clear... Yes, I can stand by "every word," that I have spoken, written above, and have no fear of any adverse "judgment," for I have been "commissioned" to speak my words....all the words I have spoken, above... I have authority to speak these words... including the ones where I have personally "denounced" your "stupid" friends above. I have that authority from Jehovah God, just as Jesus did, when he denounced some of his contemporaries, by calling them "whitewashed graves," "vipers," and the like. I claim to have this "authority," from God. So, I can stand by "every word," "every utterance" with no fear of any adverse "judgement" from God.

    ...Can you say the same?

    I don't think so...

    Still, as you say, if my words do not "convince" you, that is going to be "your" very serious problem, not mine.

    I'm simply commissioned to just "tell you," to tell "Israel" of all of her Revolts..." That's it. Jehovah and Jesus will do the rest. But I will assure you, the consequences will, be severe and great...from the Hand of God.

    Now look you people,

    I'm on the "Bible Research" Forum, and I started this thread...if you don't want to talk to me, don't want to communicate, then DON'T POST ME!... Isn't that simple...just don't post me.

    I'm not on your thread, am I, on the "Main Forum" over there with you guys and "Frenchy" am I? I'm not over there. I decided to leave...I left you guys...now here you come again, over here on MY THREAD, but I said nothing to you "people." I did not invite you here...But, you followed me, didn't you?

    You followed me, over here, on "Bible Research."

    If you don't like my posts, my comments, why don't you stay off my threads...why don't you? Let someone else make a comment or two.

    So, then stay away from me, and do not post me.

    But understand this, I'm not going anywhere, till I say so...I'll decide when it is time for me to leave...okay?

    No matter what I say or do, still

    ISRAEL WILL BE JUDGED ADVERSELY BY JEHOVAH AND JESUS...nothing can change that fact... nothing. It is the Will of God.

    Still, I am under obligation to "preach" a jugdment message to all JWs, present and ex- ... I've accomplished that with "you people," there are "others" now, that must hear...so then, go away, please...

    Because, whether you or your "friends" like it or not... in fact to all JWs, still, this "message", will continue, as God Wills.

    Nothing personal, just the way it is, strictly business for me...all in a day's work...you know.

    MDS

    Edited by - MDS on 19 November 2000 5:1:8

  • waiting
    waiting

    Well, Hello again, Oh Commissioned One.

    BTW, you may not know this, but this is the "Bible Research" Forum...for those who are ardent, studious JWs...

    That is your private interpretation. Bible Research can - and does -encompass many areas. As to being "ardent, studious JWs," well, I believe, in the Biblical sense, that we all - including you - miss this private interpretation by you completely. If you were an "ardent, studious JW," you wouldn't be posting the information you post - nor would you feel commissioned by Jehovah God.

    If my assignment comes from God, what do you think you people mean to me? And what do your words "angry," "venomous," words mean...What?

    I'll give you one guess...nothing.

    I understand - no fellow feeling nor love comes from being commissioned by God.

    I'm not on your thread, am I, on the "Main Forum" over there with you guys and "Frenchy" am I? I'm not over there. I decided to leave...I left you guys...now here you come again, over here on MY THREAD, but I said nothing to you "people." I did not invite you here...But, you followed me, didn't you?

    You followed me, over here, on "Bible Research."

    This is an open forum. No one - even if they believe they're "commissioned by God" - owns a private thread. No invitation needed for us to respond. If you want complete posting privacy - start a web site of your own. Btw, just the length of your posts intrigues my curiousity. Like a person drawn to witness an automobile wreck.

    If you don't like my posts, my comments, why don't you stay off my threads...why don't you? Let someone else make a comment or two.

    Again, this is not your forum - God did not give it to you. It is Simon's forum - and Simon says we can go where we want. So there.

    So, then stay away from me,

    I don't have to stay away from you. If you post, by the very act of posting on a public forum, you should have the intellectual capacity to ascertain that any person with proper posting identification can respond to your post. If you don't want persons to respond - don't post.

    and do not post me.

    If you post something I feel deserving of my response - I will post to you. Whether the response is negative or positive is irrelevant - I - as do all other posters - have the right to respond if we wish. God did not tell me this; Simon did.

    One of the proofs of the divinity of our gospel is that it has survived preaching. Woodrow Wilson

    waiting

    Edited by - waiting on 19 November 2000 11:10:18

  • MDS
    MDS

    Waiting:

    What in the world can we learn from Woodrow Wilson???

    JWs, quoting Woodrow Wilson, a man, worldly politician of old, quoting him for words of wisdom...? You are pitiful... really.

    That's insulting to JEHOVAH and JESUS!

    Can't you think of a scripture, instead of quoting a man, for words of wisdom??? Did you not learn ANYTHING up at the kingdom hall...anything at all?

    Perhaps, you & company are disturbed by this particular post, because you were sooo much were looking forward to "Frenchy's" scriptural presentation of

    "Why it is ABSOLUTELY necessary to ASK God for a miracle, to insure and test the Credentials of anyone claiming to represent Him."

    You know, mentioned on the "reflections" thread on the "Main Forum."

    Soooooo...did I steal your "thunder," perhaps, a little... (smile)

    ...with this post of mine???

    What's the matter... no scriptural response... I put out the fire... did I?... hmmmmmm...

    Yes, what happened to that upcoming thread "Frenchy" promised you guys .... Is Frenchy still doing some "research," on the subject... what happened? Especially after seeing this post I put up. What's the hold up?

    Can't think of any scriptures to support your position, now that I have posted?...hmmmmm.....

    I know you guys was sooo much looking forward to "Frenchy's" new and upcoming post on the subject...May be "Ah Hah," needs to help out... I'll tell you what... What if ALL OF YOU GET TOGETHER AND MAKE A WRITTEN PRESENTATION on the above subject... yes ALL OF YOU... to say... yes, to "correct" the little false prophet over there on "Bible Research," ... how about that?

    Or, are you SIMPLY INCAPABLE of following the Divine "formula" found in 1 John 4:1 to "test" the "inspired expression," with God's Word, the Bible... Biblical "counsel," administer discipline, "correct," scold, yes stomp me in the ground, even, or whatever...or perhaps, 2 Tim. 3:16.

    Or, maybe, you and your friends, are simply, OUT OF YOUR LEAGUE, here... Could it be?

    OUT OF YOUR LEAGUE, here?

    ...hmmm....

    Perhaps, I may be a "formidable foe," a little too much to handle for you guys... why don't you find out..."Test ME," ... and see just how well I am familiar with the Sacred Word... why not find out... Test me... 1 John 4:1, you know.

    1 John 4:1 - says:

    "Beloved ones, DO NOT BELIEVE EVERY INSPIRED EXPRESSION, BUT TEST THE INSPIRED EXPRESSION, TO SEE WHETHER THEY ORIGINATE WITH God,..."

    Can you do this? Are you even CAPABLE, even as a group, can you do this? I wonder...

    Waiting, how are you going to know, unless you "Test it"... test it...using the Bible, and not your swaggering tongue, and empty "mouthings," fancy words and human wisdom. Otherwise you get NO WHERE. You and friends are setting on ZERO, with Jehovah God and Jesus, and you'll never, never, ever, learn anything, unless, until you give consideration to another viewpoint... ONE THAT IS NOT YOURS!

    Can you do that?

    Jeremiah 23:20 says:

    "the ANGER OF JEHOVAH will not turn back until he will have carried out and until he will have made the ideas of his heart come true. In the final part of the days you people will give your consideration to it with understanding."

    Did you notice, the "anger of Jehovah," ... yes, the "anger of Jehovah," COMES FIRST... then, "Israel" will understand...truly understand completely. In the "final part of the days," Our day, the Last Days, yes, the prophecy says, you will GET THE POINT...after the Discipline, after the rage, after the "burning anger" of Jehovah. -- See Jeremiah 30:24

    I claim to be Jehovah's Representative, His Spokeman, His Prophet... that's my claim, ... its only a claim, like being of the anointed... we say today, "he PROFESSES TO BE OF THE ANOINTED"... its a claim, that's all. -- Isaiah 49:1-6

    Now, with that thought in mind...

    MY CHALLENGE TO YOU AND YOUR GANG:

    You, Ah hah, Frenchy and the rest of your constituents, cannot take the Bible, the way Jesus did, and "SET MATTERS STRAIGHT" when dealing with the sooo, unloving Pharisee...aka "ME,"...as you say, the False Prophet among you.

    I invite you to follow the DIVINE COUNSEL of JEHOVAH, and do as 2 Timothy 3:16 recommends... to really, really, EXPOSE the little false "messiah" among you... do this, and that will prove that God is with you. It will prove your skillful, adroit use of the Holy Scriptures. Yes, expose me, scripturally. Use the Bible.

    But dispense with the personal insults... we are getting no where with that...agreed?

    The Bible says at 2 Tim. 3:16, 17:

    "All Scripture is inspired of and beneficial for teaching, for REPROVING, for SETTING THINGS STRAIGHT, for DISCIPLINING IN RIGHTEOUSNESS, that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work."

    Therefore, please show your spiritual "competence," here... how about it?

    If I need "reproving," ... If I need spiritual "correction," ... If I need to be "set straight," by saying God does not want us REQUEST MIRACLES AND SIGNS FROM HIM ... well... Prove it!

    Man, that's big talk... now disprove it, scripturally.

    Soooo ... "Set me straight," ... are you "completely equipped," as the Bible says you should be, in these "Last Days," of ours ... time is short... really you don't much time left to "get it together," spiritually speaking ... really...

    Prove yourselves here...Can you do that, Waiting, Frenchy, Ah Hah, Red Horse Woman, and the gang... can you do that?

    Take that post I made up above...

    ANALYZE IT... what's wrong with it SCRIPTURALLY, from God's point of view...

    Quit attacking the "messenger," me the "little false prophet," ... attack the "message," itself...the message, and not the "messenger."

    Jesus did this, when encountered with Satan, himself, remember on the Mountain... why can't you? He took the Scriptures and defeated Satan, using the Bible... Matt. 4:1-11.

    If I am from Satan, the Devil, you people, who have Jehovah at your side, should be able to SCRIPTURALLY SET MATTERS STRAIGHT LIKE JESUS... why can't you do this? Why?

    I wonder...

    MDS

    PS: And please, please quit quoting Woodrow Wilson, please...someone that didn't "know his left hand from his...", well, you know.

    Edited by - MDS on 19 November 2000 13:56:31

  • AhHah
    AhHah

    MDS,

    Again, thank you for finally making your motives for posting very clear to everyone.

    Yes, I can stand by "every word," that I have spoken, written above, and have no fear of any adverse "judgment," for I have been "commissioned" to speak my words....all the words I have spoken, above... I have authority to speak these words... including the ones where I have personally "denounced" your "stupid" friends above. I have that authority from Jehovah God, just as Jesus did

    All of God's prophets, even those who brought messages of judgement, acted in love. If you believe that you are commissioned to preach to all JW's and ex-JW's a message from God, then where is the evidence of God's love for them? Do you remember the story of Jonah? Do you remember how he was humbled by God for his attitude toward those to whom he preached a message of destruction?

    Instead of posting your endless rants on this forum, perhaps you would be better served by contemplating the experiences in your life that have caused you to become so angry and delusional. When you post these "messages of judgement from God", how do you feel? Are you regaining a modicum of self-esteem for a short while? But, then afterwards, do the self-doubts and guilt and self-hatred slowly take over again ... leading you to post yet once more so as to convince yourself that you are a prophet of God? Because if you were actually a prophet of God, that would explain why everyone else is "persecuting" you and rejects you, wouldn't it?

    Unfortunately for you, however, you are posting to persons who are good students of the Bible, with more insight than yourself. They are not fooled by your facade as you yourself are. When we occasionally try to help you see why you could not possibly speak for God, this causes you to become very agitated and even afraid, doesn't it? If we are right, and a part of you deep down knows that we are, then you must eventually face your real demons, instead of hiding behind your "prophet of God" delusion and persecution complex.

    As painful as this must be for you, are you truly happy with yourself and your life? Wouldn't you really prefer to be truly accepted and loved for who you really are? Wouldn't you prefer to read posts from these loving persons, letting you know that they relate to your pain and that they love you and want to help in any way they can? You could receive just such love and reassurances here. However, it must start with you. You must first be willing to be honest with yourself and then with us.

    If this is too difficult to do on your own, then you should consider getting professional help. The delusions only seem to be the easy way to find peace. There will still come the inevitable breakdown when the delusion crumbles, and it always does eventually. Wouldn't you prefer to find peace and acceptance sooner rather than later?

    It is your life and it is your choice. This post is not "persecution". This is an honest attempt to help you to look inside, painful as that might be. Since I do not know you, and since these are only guesses as to what is going on in your head, they could be all wrong. But, then again, maybe not.

    In any event, please do not continue to insult our intelligence with your delusional posts. We are not buying it any more than you are deep down. Those who post here are decent, loving persons. A loving God cares for them and loves them, even if you don't.

  • TR
    TR

    MDS,

    OK, I'll attack the "message" as it were. To start thing off, I won't attack the Christian scriptures, but "old testament".

    What say you that the Hebrew scriptures are actual a very detail-poor rendition of much earlier texts, such as Babylonian, Assyrian, and Sumerian? Do you deny this? If you don't, then you must accepted much more in history than the bible can provide. You must accept that Elohim is more than one God at the very least. If you do deny it, than your God has kept a major chunk of history from you, or you didn't look beyond the bible. And, if THAT is the case, you are very ignorant.

    Tom

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