Posts by AhHah

58

Why Does God Allow Evil?

by Frenchy in

jw
friends

ahhah .

i did not want to complicate paths thread.

although this is directed to you, ahhah, naturally i welcome comments by all who participate here.. in reference to a portion of what i posted to seven:.

AhHah

Frenchy,

Thanks for quickly and kindly accepting my apology and offering yours. Your posts always demonstrate that you are a loving and caring person, and your response here is no exception.

I tend to get very passionate about matters that I care about deeply. I believe that sometimes causes me to come across differently than I intend. I try to remember that just because I have a passionate opinion, does not necessarliy mean that I am right. I used to feel very passionately that JW's taught only truth, and I would defend them at the doors with my last breath! Just listen to me now!??

You have defended your statement very well, and your opinion is just as valid as mine. Just because it does not ring true for me, does not make it wrong. I believe we all would wish for much clearer, and provable answers to age-old issues such as these.

Hopefully one thing stands out from this post above all others:

Seven and Waiting - we care about you!

58

Why Does God Allow Evil?

by Frenchy in

jw
friends

ahhah .

i did not want to complicate paths thread.

although this is directed to you, ahhah, naturally i welcome comments by all who participate here.. in reference to a portion of what i posted to seven:.

AhHah

Frenchy,

I am sorry that you have taken offense at my rebuttal to your statement. It was not meant to be personal or insulting. I found your original statement offensive, but I do not find you offensive at all. I like you and I like your posts.

I believe that we probably do not have common ground upon which to continue this discussion since you are defending your statement with quotes from the Bible. I reject the Bible's contradictory descriptions of God for the same reason that I reject your premise that God might allow evil to certain individuals because they need some personal development. I find such a concept of God absolutely repulsive, and if God should ever ask me, I will tell him the same. This does not make me right and you wrong.

We are both attempting to salvage our concept of God when faced with the horrors of reality -- people that we care about get raped and murdered. Your impression of God may be right, in spite of how repulsive that I find it.

I hope that my being so outspoken does not hurt your feelings. For me, it is a matter of conscience, because I care very much about persons who suffer unjustly at the hands of other people, as I know you do also. -- Hearing other people’s opinions in no way ever offends me but characterizations and personal insinuations do. Your conscience is your business and yours alone. We each have one to deal with ourselves. Your stating your concern about persons suffering ‘unjustly at the hands of other people’ in conjunction with your rebuttal to my post as well as your previous statement I commented on leads me to believe that you somehow see yourself as some sort of self-appointed righter of wrongs here. Am I mistaken in that appraisal?

Yes, you are very mistaken in your appraisal of me and my reason for my post. I spoke up only because I felt that the potential that your comment had to add to the burdern of guilt that Seven and Waiting might already have, deserved a rebuttal so that they would hear a different opinion. That is how we demonstrate our care on this forum -- by speaking up.

Again, please accept my apologies for offending you by my rebuttal. That was not my intention.

P.S. Just in case there was any confusion, my comment about my concern for persons "suffering unjustly at the hands of other persons" was certainly NOT a reference to your post (was that your impression??). It was a reference to Seven and Waiting both being victims of rape.

Edited by - AhHah on 7 October 2000 19:56:4

5

GB, Education, Jack-ass, Witnet?

by Pathofthorns in

jw
friends

very interesting comments in this thread at witnet.

the original poster suggests how it was perceived by some to be shocking that dan sydlik (gb member) used the word "jack-ass" in a talk.. but as pointed out by bodhissatva in the following post, that it was who dan sydlik referred to as "jack-asses" that was the sad thing.. brother sydlik was saying that bethel especially needs people with skills, certifications, and qualifications.

to make this point, he said (in his characteristic booming voice), "of course, any jackass can swing a hammer.".

AhHah

This duplicity bothered me long before I left the JW's. Since the world is going to end soon, only a spiritually weak person would go to college instead of preaching full-time. But, by the way, we need those of you who already have any college skills before God called you, to come serve at headquarters, so that we can make more literature.

When I was of college age, those who went to college were stripped of their "priviledges" and considered to be setting a "bad example". Then they pressure people making lower wages to give more money, and spend their vacations, when they are not working two jobs, to pioneer. And don't neglect your congregation responsibilities (and your family in your spare time). What a-holes they are!

58

Why Does God Allow Evil?

by Frenchy in

jw
friends

ahhah .

i did not want to complicate paths thread.

although this is directed to you, ahhah, naturally i welcome comments by all who participate here.. in reference to a portion of what i posted to seven:.

AhHah

Waiting,

That was very painful to read. I can't even imagine how painful that was to experience. I am not surprised that those events have shaped your impressions of God the way that they have.

Most humans seem to want to believe in a benevolent, loving God of some kind. I also would like to hold on to that belief. I sincerely hope that God still cares about every one of us, and that, in time, we will all understand this confusing world that we live in.

In the meantime, we are enriched by sharing our lives with one another. Thank you for your openness and honesty. I hope that we are able to help you remain hopeful.

35

One for the ladies...

by Pathofthorns in

jw
friends

a post on witnet reminded me of this old question from readers in the 1960's.

(and you thought we were sexist .

*** w61 12/15 767-8 questions from readers ***.

AhHah

Seven,

Thanks for the reminder about the link. I clicked on the 'Chrsitianity' link from there and read "A Survivor's Prayer". It was so moving that I wept. I am sometimes overwhelmed when I think about all the trauma and injustice that so many suffer at the hands of others.

You and Waiting sharing this intense personal pain with us makes all of your other posts so much more beautiful and meaningful. Both of you, please be assured of my love, support and care.

Here is a small part of that beautiful prayer for all to enjoy:

My Father I know that You too feel not only their pain, but their frustration & mistrust. What has happened Lord should never have been. And Lord at times we blame You for this, or wonder why You didn't intercede on our behalf and prevent it. Help us to realize that it was man who did this to us, and not You and that all this will in time glorify Your Kingdom. Father help them through this time of doubt, resentment, blame, and anger at You. Lord our FEARS are many as well as our TEARS. Gracious Father, I ask You to wipe away the tears and help calm the fears. Help us to see that even when we feel that You have abandoned us and we turn away, that even tho we feel and think that we have left You, You have never left us. That once we are Yours You will never leave us or forsake us!!
We know that You could have done just that, but that since man sinned and was given a choice, of good & evil and the narrow path which is long and hard to seek You. Or the wide, supposedly safer path that satan has provided. And that not everyone belongs to You and would harm those because they listen to satan's lies.
Lord God our hearts are heavy with PAIN!! The bible tells us that not only when 2 or 3 are gathered together in Your Name, there You are. But also that what ever we ask for in Your Son Jesus Christ's Name will be granted.
And that You too feel our pain, our sorrow, our suffering and our shame. Help us to put the blame of what has happened where it belongs, and that on our journey of victory, survival & healing that in time we may forgive those who have hurt us.

But we thank You Heavenly Father for those You have put in our path, to help us along the way to heal and become VICTORIOUS!! Those who support us, understand us, help us, encourage us, those we can lean on. Lord some are confused, and others pull away from us, or they want to help & understand but don't know how. Some say hurtful things. They don't mean to but it hurts none the less. Help them to better understand what they've done Lord. Father carry those of us who are weary from the battle of taking back what was stolen from us. Keep us in Your wonderful care. Help those who struggle greatly, no matter what it may be. Lord Jesus, help us when we lose it and panic. Lord keep us from going over the edge, and help us when things trigger us and cause all sorts of things to happen and take place. These feelings are great, and at times we just don't know what to do. Lord!

Some may also find this quote relevant:

Where Was Jesus When This Happened To Me?
If God loves me why didn't He stop the attacker?
God doesn't directly intervene in our own lives. He does work for the good of those who believe in him.(Psalm 66:5 "Come and see what God has done, how awesome are his works in man's behalf" NIV)
His voice on the subject of rape is quite clear (Deuteronomy 22:25 "But if out in the country a man happens to meet a girl pledged to be married and rapes her, only the man who has done this shall die. 22:26 Do nothing to the girl for she has committed no sin deserving death")

Edited by - AhHah on 7 October 2000 17:13:11

51

How about a survey?

by AhHah in

jw
friends

i thought it might be interesting to post a survey for those who post on this forum.. perhaps it will provide a basis for some additional stimulating discussions on god and religion.. with that in mind, i have posted a survey of 10 yes/no/unsure questions on the bible/research forum.

AhHah

Thanks Path.

I was wondering if most here really wanted to discuss weighty or even controversial matters about God and religion. Latley, it seems that some do after all.

I really enjoy hearing others comments and I like it when others make me really reason on a matter and perhaps expand my thinking. I believe that it is vital to our growth.

Some time ago, Frenchy posted an excellent discussion about the very important need that a forum like this can fill in our lives, as a spiritual fellowship. For that to be the case, we obviously cannot shy away from discussing important matters.

I am glad that you also feel positive about the changes in your life. It is not easy at first.

89

Do you believe ...

by AhHah in

simply respond to each question with a yes or no answer (or '?

' if unsure):.

before answering, please see my comments on general/main - "how about a survey?"..

AhHah

Carmel,

You make an interesting point. Can God truly bless individuals, and be neutral or non-interfering with their religious systems? I personally believe that He can and does. Otherwise, God becomes at least somewhat responsible for the collective actions of the religions. Since people of diferent religions have no compunctions about slaughtering one another, I find this all the more reason for God to distance himself from them, and yet, bless the individual efforts of those who seek Him.

If we consider the possiblity that instead of all the world's revealed religions as being from one source, but addressing different peoples in different environments and traditions at different times, then God is not selecting one over the other or replacing one with the other. He is simply renewing the effects of His periodic intervention.

You seemed to have moved away somewhat from your original post about the succession of the prophets and the resulting "judgment day" cycle?

58

Why Does God Allow Evil?

by Frenchy in

jw
friends

ahhah .

i did not want to complicate paths thread.

although this is directed to you, ahhah, naturally i welcome comments by all who participate here.. in reference to a portion of what i posted to seven:.

AhHah

Frenchy,

I am glad that you decided to repsond to this important issue. Let me first reassure you that my response was not hostile, although it was most definitely emotional. You are certainly not alone in voicing that opinion and it is certainly not the first time that I have heard it expressed.

You have focued your response on why God allows evil (such as rape) to occur and whether, in a general sense, God has a reason for choosing not to interfere with human actions (although presumably he could). As you acknowledged, it is not the same to say that God chooses not to interfere and saying that he causes that which he does not choose to prevent. My belief is that God never chooses to prevent humans from committing crimes and is therefore in no way responsible for individual crimes that are committed. One could argue that he allows ALL evil for some higher purpose. That, however, does not imply that God is making some individual judgment every time evil is committed.

The statement that you have chosen to ignore in your response is the statement you made that I find repulsive and revolting.

I’m not saying that God punished you, no, never. But he allows terrible things to happen to us when he could prevent it. Why? Like I said before, I don’t really know but perhaps it’s because he has to, not as a lesson to angels as is suggested by the WTS, but as things needed for our personal development.

It is quite another matter to say that God chooses not to prevent a horrible crime that is about to happen to someone because that person is in need of some personal development that will be served by this crime. If God is actually making a conscious decision for that purpose, then one might argue that God is indeed at least partly responsible for the crime, insofar as he allows this crime whereas He might choose to prevent another one about to happen to someone else. I cannot reconcile such a concept with the concept of a loving God.

What possible personal development would you have us believe that Seven and Waiting could have needed, so that a loving God might have decided that they needed to be raped to serve their necessary personal development? What about little children that are abused or even murdered? What personal development might they be in need of? I find the very question absurd.

To make one of your illustrations relevant to what I find so repulsive, let's use the Father and Son and on the train tracks. This time let's not use any misdirection to cloud the issue since this post is a response to one individual act of rape, not two simultaneous ones. There is only the Son playing on the train tracks, unaware of the train coming. The Father sees the situation and has plenty of time to act. He chooses not to act because his son is need of some personal development that will be served by allowing him to be run over by the train, or perhaps raped by a stranger, to make it even more relevant. Now what do you think of the Father? What personal development deserved to be taught through his son's death or rape? Most societies would consider the Father criminally negligent in either case. Would you have us believe that a loving God is any less responsible for his actions or inactions?

The only way that I personally can reconcile God's inaction is what I stated above. He does not choose to miraculously intervene to prevent any human actions of any kind. Humans, therefore, are completely and totally responsible for their actions and God is not responsible for allowing some individual actions and preventing others.

My emotions were stirred because I cannot imagine burdening a rape victim, such as Waiting or Seven, with the notion that God allowed their rape for their own good.

You have every right to completely disagree with me. The above is only my opinion and I could be completely wrong.

As I said before, your viewpont is not an uncommon one. I believe that we tend to accept things that we have heard repeated for a long time. I also want to repeat that I know your comments were well-intentioned. You seem to be a very loving person, with only the very best of motives. I like you and I like your posts. I believe that everyone on this forum likes you and appreciates your posts, especially Seven and Waiting. To their credit, they did not take your comments personally or take offense.

I hope that my being so outspoken does not hurt your feelings. For me, it is a matter of conscience, because I care very much about persons who suffer unjustly at the hands of other people, as I know you do also.

Edited by - AhHah on 7 October 2000 15:11:23

35

One for the ladies...

by Pathofthorns in

jw
friends

a post on witnet reminded me of this old question from readers in the 1960's.

(and you thought we were sexist .

*** w61 12/15 767-8 questions from readers ***.

AhHah

Waiting and Seven,

I also had wanted to express my support and admiration for your courage and determination sooner than now. I wasn't really sure how it might be received. Although I recognize what a horrible and traumatic crime rape is, as a man (and also never having been a victim of rape) I probably cannot fully understand just what an enormous task it must be to recover and move on and embrace life and love afterwards.

When one adds the WT society crap reviewed on this post to that horrible experience, it is truly an injustice and is inexcusable on their part.

I must also say that there was a statement made earlier which I could not disagree with more:

I’m not saying that God punished you, no, never. But he allows terrible things to happen to us when he could prevent it. Why? Like I said before, I don’t really know but perhaps it’s because he has to, not as a lesson to angels as is suggested by the WTS, but as things needed for our personal development.

To even suggest that God might possibly allow something this horrible to happen because it is somehow needed for our personal development, I find a revolting and repulsive thought. I believe that such notions also tend to reinforce the guilt and negative self image that can follow such a trauma. Should we also presume that every victim of every despicable crime was somehow in need of such for his/her personal development? I refuse to believe that. I believe that it is a well-intentioned but very misguided attempt to explain how a loving God could possibly allow such atrocities to happen. Humans do these things, not God. Let's not add insult to injury. I had to speak up about that statement. My conscience would not allow me to remain silent.
Edited by - AhHah on 7 October 2000 3:26:8

Edited by - AhHah on 7 October 2000 3:39:41

Edited by - AhHah on 7 October 2000 4:3:31

89

Do you believe ...

by AhHah in

simply respond to each question with a yes or no answer (or '?

' if unsure):.

before answering, please see my comments on general/main - "how about a survey?"..

AhHah

Interesting history review.

You rightly acknowledge that major religious branches have mostly developed independently from each other, which underscores the reasons for my questions of your original post about your cycle of "judgment days" for major religions.

You seem to have agreed that it "becomes a much more challenging concept" to reconcile your theory of God passing the torch from one religious system to another when one considers the vast and ancient Eastern religions.

Yes, there are similarities between them, but, more relevant to this post, they all still exist, even though colonial expansion has permitted relatively recent growth of western religions. I just don't see the evidence for recognizing any intervention by God to show his ever changing endorsement of new prophets/religions as the old one meets it "judgment day".

Recall Jesus said, "when I am in the world, I am the light of the world". Certainly there was no other way to reach the father at the time of Jesus than through the "annointed one, Christ".

Also, if the above was true, where did that leave those practicing Eastern religions who never heard of Christ?

Isn't it possible that God instead blesses individuals and does not bless, support, or influence any of the man-made religious organizations at all?