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Edited by - AhHah on 5 November 2000 2:58:49
Posts by AhHah
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92Reflections
by Frenchy inim starting a new thread because its time i left the bergman discussion.
i would like to address some comments made by ahhah, however, comments which have given me reason to look deep into myself.. even then, i wonder how objective a person could ever be after having had part of their life taken from them by a cult association.
on the other hand, who else (other than an ex-jw) would ever care enough to work as tirelessly as he seems to have in attempting to document the potential harm of this religion (biased as it may be).
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92
Reflections
by Frenchy inim starting a new thread because its time i left the bergman discussion.
i would like to address some comments made by ahhah, however, comments which have given me reason to look deep into myself.. even then, i wonder how objective a person could ever be after having had part of their life taken from them by a cult association.
on the other hand, who else (other than an ex-jw) would ever care enough to work as tirelessly as he seems to have in attempting to document the potential harm of this religion (biased as it may be).
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AhHah
Dear NotSure (but I believe you are more sure than you know),
Thank you for that touching post. You have beautifully demonstrated how this forum can be a genuine spiritual outreach and fellowship. I grieve for so many genuine, honest-hearted persons who are taken advantage of and denied happy, fulfilling lives. Hopefully, posts such as yours will encourage and empower some of them.
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Reflections
by Frenchy inim starting a new thread because its time i left the bergman discussion.
i would like to address some comments made by ahhah, however, comments which have given me reason to look deep into myself.. even then, i wonder how objective a person could ever be after having had part of their life taken from them by a cult association.
on the other hand, who else (other than an ex-jw) would ever care enough to work as tirelessly as he seems to have in attempting to document the potential harm of this religion (biased as it may be).
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AhHah
Dear Red,
I was emotionally overcome as I read your story. I feel so much empathy for what you have been through. How many years have you been out of the Borg?
I really don't think that most of the world has any idea how much the JW org steals the very lives of their members and then discards them like yesterday's trash if they dare to complain or come to their senses. What a mockery of Christianity and spirituality! They truly are a dysfunctional cult.
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Reflections
by Frenchy inim starting a new thread because its time i left the bergman discussion.
i would like to address some comments made by ahhah, however, comments which have given me reason to look deep into myself.. even then, i wonder how objective a person could ever be after having had part of their life taken from them by a cult association.
on the other hand, who else (other than an ex-jw) would ever care enough to work as tirelessly as he seems to have in attempting to document the potential harm of this religion (biased as it may be).
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AhHah
Frenchy,
Why is it so hard to walk away from it if we know that it is false? Are we totally convinced that it was indeed a deception?
I found it relatively easy to walk away and leave behind a lifetime of slavery once I understood that it was not God's organization. And yes, I did research for many months, and I am totally convinced that it was indeed a deception. The resultant pain is not from walking away -- that is a relief! The pain comes from the realization of all that we have lost in exchange for our slavery. Lost opportunities, lost relationships, and even the loss of one's sense of self.
I get the feeling when I read your questions that you have not personally been through this process. Is that the case?
Why do we feel so compelled to attack what was once our life’s pursuit?
Not an uncommon reaction of victims of injustice of any kind. In view of the extreme demands of the JWs and the high price that so many have paid with their lives, is that really so difficult to understand?
Edited by - AhHah on 4 November 2000 15:10:33
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92
Reflections
by Frenchy inim starting a new thread because its time i left the bergman discussion.
i would like to address some comments made by ahhah, however, comments which have given me reason to look deep into myself.. even then, i wonder how objective a person could ever be after having had part of their life taken from them by a cult association.
on the other hand, who else (other than an ex-jw) would ever care enough to work as tirelessly as he seems to have in attempting to document the potential harm of this religion (biased as it may be).
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AhHah
Frenchy,
Good questions. There is much objective information out there to help you to analyze your experiences as a JW and arrive at your own answers. I posted just a few below.
A dictionary definition of cult: (obviously subjective)
3 : a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherentsclick http://www.ex-cult.org/General/identifying-a-cult
click http://www.ex-cult.org/General/review.academic.research
click http://www.csj.org/infoserv_cult101/cult101.htm
click http://www.csj.org/infoserv_cult101/checklis.htm
Is the WTS, the Jehovah’s Witnesses a cult? It would depend on whom you ask. Is it an association that controls the lives of its members. Most definitely. However, would that not be the case if it truly was what it claims to be? Would that not be its very nature, to differentiate its members from the ‘world’? Is TRUTH not unique? Once found and accepted should it not be defended against all lies and misrepresentations?
I would perhaps add to your questions above, why would a religious organization feel a need to enforce any type of control of any kind over its members? What are they afraid of if they do not attempt to do so? That people will not feel obligated to conform and will exercise their own thinking and free will? That they will dare to disagree with those men who establish the "truth", the doctrines? That the influence and power of those leaders might be undermined?
Why would any of those things be undesirable if God himself has called people to the religion and if they are certain that they have the "truth"? Would they not voluntarily comform if they were convinced of that?
If what is important about the religion is individual salvation (versus a human power structure), then why would the religion not respect the individual? Why not leave the individual's choice of what to believe, what to reject, how to live one's life, between the individual and God? Why not let the religion provide opportunity to minister to spiritual needs as opposed to dictating beliefs and actions?
So what if every person has a different concept of God? Are we not all humans with similar feelings and needs? Are we not God-like enough to be able to minister to one another without demanding complete agreement and compliance before doing so? Are we not willing to let God reveal himself to sincere individuals and let God himself provide any correction or needed adjustments in thinking or worship?
Human nature is that we seek those who tend to agree with us and avoid those who disagree with us, although that does not always serve us well. When there is mutual respect for differences, without condemnation and rejection, are we not all benefited?
How can any human organization ever justify any attempt to usurp God's authority and presume to enforce that which God reserves to himself? Where did Christ himself vest any human organization with the power that the JW religion (and many others) have appropriated for themselves?
**********************************************************************A more disturbing question is why humans have empowered controlling human organizations with their support and loyalty. They would not even exist otherwise.
These organizations obviously provide (or at least promise to provide) something which some feel is valuable enough to surrender their friends, their own families, their children and parents, an enormous amount of their time, a willingness to die before compromising their dictated beliefs, yes they surrender their very lives. Followers are willing to accept without question that God speaks to their religious leaders even though God does not speak to them. What are they getting in return?
My theory is that they get reassurances that they cannot find evidence of through their personal experience alone. I would add that many are lazy and do not want to research and examine and analyze and think for themselves. It is easier to let others do it for them (but what a high price they pay for their laziness!). They are provided with a sense of security in a world that seems to offer none. They are convinced that their allegiance and loyalty will allow them to defy death itself, the ultimate promise, the ultimate victory, the ultimate deception!
The mysteries of a universe that exceeds our own intelligence becomes the "proof" that we must accept that which we do not understand. Thus, there MUST be a God, even though we have not met him, even though he has not spoken to us personally. Therefore, anything that anyone claims that God has done for them or revealed to them alone must be at least possible. Therein lies the hook that humans who wish to have power over others may use. All they need is the balls to say God speaks to them, be really charismatic, promise peace, happiness, brotherhood, answers to every problem and need and doubt and insecurity -- and then "Presto" -- one has a group of followers and a new religion.
Now, how do we keep our new followers? We must be different, we must offer revelations that no one else has. We must make them sound really good, the more over the top the better. After all, it comes from God and all things are possible with God -- just look around -- can YOU create a blade of grass -- well, there's your "proof"! We must also condemn all of the other unbelievers as not having God's spirit, lacking faith, not as worthy as we are -- why are we so worthy? -- gee, I don't know -- I guess we are just really special -- yeah, that's it! -- we ARE special! -- we aren't just a bunch of nobodies that are going to die like everyone else! -- we are SAVED! Thank God for Reverend Jim for recognizing how SPECIAL we are -- What's that? Drink this poison kool-aid? Go out in door-to-door every day? God cannot call people on his own? He is not powerful enough to do that? He needs our slavery? Because we are special! After all, if we do this we won't really die like everybody else, we will be saved!
So why am I so unhappy then? I guess I just don't have enough faith. I must work much harder. Maybe God will bless me then. I am so unworthy -- I am so special -- I am so unworthy -- I am so special.
Promises, deception, control, guilt = cult = humans who want power over others.
Edited by - AhHah on 4 November 2000 13:21:24
Edited by - AhHah on 4 November 2000 14:5:43
Edited by - AhHah on 4 November 2000 15:7:5
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Jerry Bergman, Ph.D. (psy) - JW insights
by AhHah inthis site also contains articles by ken raines, who seems to have developed the site.. url http://www.premier1.net/~raines/.
url http://www.premier1.net/~raines/story.html (ken raines).
url http://www.premier1.net/~raines/papers.html (j. bergman).
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AhHah
Xandit,
Thanks for the link. I found the associated link below to be especially relevant. It is apparently an objective review of one of Bergman's books (even though the site is pro-JW). I haven't seen the book, but this review documents sloppy research and questionable editing and credibility. http://www.jehovah.to/freedom/review.htm.
He is apparently very self-indulgent even with his "professional" writings and hurts his credibility. Seems very immature and unprofessional, as has been pointed out by others on this thread who are more familiar with his work than I am.
I still believe that he has some research that is potentially insightful to JWs and ex-JWs. It is a shame that he makes it all seem suspect by his indulgences. As Waiting suggested, he should have gone through enough therapy before attempting his work.
Even then, I wonder how objective a person could ever be after having had part of their life taken from them by a cult association. On the other hand, who else (other than an ex-JW) would ever care enough to work as tirelessly as he seems to have in attempting to document the potential harm of this religion (biased as it may be). Ironically, it is probably the well-read ex-JWs who are past the anger, who are in the best position to critically evaluate his work and conclusions -- and they are probably the least in need of it. C'est la vie.
Flawed as his work may be, perhaps it is better than silence. If nothing else, a big caution flag is being waved to the world. In view of all the wasted lives (including mine) and potential wasted lives, there is a real need for big flags to be waved.
I wish there was some way to gather from every ex-JW a standardized survey of damages sustained through membership and have one place for persons to view them and assess the total impact. This would be relevant to anyone interested in cult influences. The dark side of this scenario is those who would use such data to justify the denial of religious and other personal freedoms. Since membership is voluntary (except for children of members), the danger of cult involvement is a sad but necessary price that society pays. The answer to this dilemma is not loss of freedoms, but rather education. When everyone has access to objective information, then the cults are robbed of much of their power and influence over gullible victims. Hopefully, the Internet will prove to be a valuable resource for such information, and not just a vehicle for those would prey on the unwary.
Edited by - AhHah on 4 November 2000 2:55:30
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Who's the best James Bond?
by Pathofthorns inbut you can only choose from:.
timothy dalton.
sean connery.
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AhHah
Sean Connery ... but if Pierce Brosnan was on the list I might have to give him the nod.
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Strange Books/Kooks Museum
by Seven ina few interesting clicks: http://www.teleport.com/~dkossy/index.html.
and http://www.teleport.com/~dkossy/kooksmus.html
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AhHah
Geez, just when you think you've heard it all ... and we thought JWs were weird!
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Waiting visits Carmel
by Seven ini thought i'd share waiting's vacation pictures of her visit to carmel's.
following a tiresome flight he was there to pick her up at the airport.
they stopped by his place of business to change cabs.
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AhHah
Well done Seven!
You are definitely the web-link meister! How do you find all those great links??
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Jerry Bergman, Ph.D. (psy) - JW insights
by AhHah inthis site also contains articles by ken raines, who seems to have developed the site.. url http://www.premier1.net/~raines/.
url http://www.premier1.net/~raines/story.html (ken raines).
url http://www.premier1.net/~raines/papers.html (j. bergman).
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AhHah
Waiting,
I didn't quote your posts in my post above, but thanks for your reply.
I have been surprised by some of the reactions to this post. One would think from some of the responses that I had posted a blanket endorsement for this man's articles, almost as though I had written them myself. I simply thought that they contained a perspective that I had not seen elsewhere and that some might find it an interesting and perhaps even a valuable read. He may indeed be guilty of everything that he has been accused of on this thread. I didn't personally find any blatant inaccuracies in the articles that I read. In fact, my personal experiences and observations after 31 baptized years of devout JW membership confirms many of his observations. I also believe that he discredits his own articles by including his personal opinions and conclusions in his research. In that context, conclusions should be left to the reader. But, that having been said, I still found the research interesting and insightful.
Apparently, some here are very sensitive to reading quotes that portray the WT society as an intolerant cult that causes extensive harm and injustice to its members. I didn't expect to find attempted censorship and intolerance on this forum since I was not attacking anyone or their opinions.
Why are you so persistent in pushing this man’s opinions?
Ironically, people that post here (including myself) have made similar points to Bergman's without castigation. I will respect those sensitivities in the future -- I will never again post any quotes that speak negatively of the WT society. I will only post the links and let people who are interested read them for themselves. That way, no one will have to read anything that might make them feel uncomfortable or challenge their thinking or opinions about the Borg. We wouldn't want that, now would we?
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p.s. Waiting,
I wanted to add that, by way of contrast, I appreciated the way that you expressed your opinions on this thread. You obviously did not take the content of the links personally, nor did you make me feel that you were attacking me for posting it. As usual, you set a good example for all of us. Thank you.
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Edited by - AhHah on 2 November 2000 21:54:58
Edited by - AhHah on 2 November 2000 22:34:28