Posts by CharlieSmith1975

26

Source material: "144,000" and "anointed" in The Watchtower, 2000-2015

by Doug Mason in

a collation of statements made in the watchtower from 2000 to 2015 of "144,000" and "anointed".

http://www.jwstudies.com/wt_magazines_from_2000_to_2015_on_144000_and_the_anointed.pdf .

doug.

CharlieSmith1975

Charlie,

I fully respect your right to you having your beliefs. I am asking you in all sincerity: why believe the Bible? Have you researched Lower Criticism, Higher Criticism, or the canonization processes?

It is too easy to hide behind pigeon-holes such as "skeptic" without addressing the substance.

If your foundation is only belief, then do not be dogmatic that you are correct and that you "know" other interpretations are incorrect.

On what basis do you know that the writers at Rev 7 and Rev 14 were explicitly referring to that text in Isaiah?

Doug

Actually, Doug, you're forcing me to admit more than I'd prefer to. And this is something you can never believe but it's true, but here goes:.

Luke 9:27 ""Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God."

1 Thess 4:15 "We tell you this directly from the Lord: We who are still living when the Lord returns will not meet him ahead of those who have died. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever."

John 21:23 "Because of this, the rumor spread among the believers that this disciple would not die. But Jesus did not say that he would not die; he only said, "If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?"

IF the Bible is true, then a group of people from the 1st Century never died and are still alive today. There were always two groups back then. Those who would die and be resurrected and those who would remain alive all that time until Christ returned. At 1 Thess. they were wondering who would end up in heaven first, those being resurrected or those who were "still alive" when he came? Paul explained that no one would go ahead of the other to heaven. But instead, the dead would first come back in physical bodies and join those still alive. Then after that they would be transformed. That is, all the elect are on the earth during the 1000-year reign of Christ, including Christ himself. Among those the Bible confirms would not die are John and Paul.

Having said that and IF that is really true, then that adds a lot of confidence in whatever scriptures we have now available to us. That is, that what we have is sufficient and effective enough to fulfill its purpose. Plus it would be obvious that Paul and John were key in shepherding and manipulating what we have. Of course, obviously, Paul and John are the greatest contributors to the NT writers, are they not? John wrote John, 1 John, 2 John and 3 John, plus Revelation. Paul wrote all those letters.

So from my perspective, whatever we have is basically what they allowed since they never died. You speak of the canon. I trust the canon because I know John and Paul had a lot to do with the canon. Now later on some other books not inspired got into even the common Bible, like Ecclesiates, Song of Solomon and the Book of Esther. But none of those books are cross-quoted from by the NT Bible writers, meaning John and Paul, who probably purposely cross-quoted from every book of the OT they considered to be inspired or wanted to include in the final product: the Bible.

So it really isn't fair to ask me why I believe because I'm not really going by faith any more. I'm part of the secret conspiracy of John and Paul and other saints who have more direct access to God, angels and holy spirit. But I'm an incredible exception to the rule. That's why I don't blame you for not believing. But I believe because I'm part of the process and prophecies relating to the elect. You can't possibly believe John and Paul are still alive. I know that. But I've seen them personally, so I have to believe. It's just that simple.

Now are you satisfied?

13

Flogging the Vat 4956 horse

by MightierThanTheSword in

i'm just curious about something & wonder if the experts could help.. basically i am documenting all of the main lines of evidence for the jws being the one & then investigating each claim systematically.. i have now reached the dreaded november 1st, 2011 watchtower & am sitting in front of a copy of cartes du ciel and a babylonian calendar converter i found at http://www.staff.science.uu.nl/~gent0113/babylon/babycal_converter.htm.

i realise these claims have been challenged and documented in depth elsewhere, but i'm keen to do my own research rather than copy & paste.

my question is regarding date conversion - when inputting the gregorian dates as given at the bottom of the tablet's translation i found at http://www.caeno.org/pdf/f019_translation.pdf then the lunar positions all seemed pretty close (visually, i wasn't dealing with exact degrees here).

CharlieSmith1975

I'm not being argumentative, just asking: what difference will this make with a calendar converter? I realize with an astronomy program it will make a difference, but surely software converting from one calendar to another would not change location between calendars?//

Oh, right. It shouldn't matter. But when comparisons were made with the calendar to some ancient Egyptian events they found good matches that were consistently a day off. I didn't look into this further beyond the suspicion that astronomers manipulated the timeline at one point, essentially eliminating a day from the calendar in connection with a manipulated astronomical picture. But that is far beyond my expertise. At one point I tried to get some professors in Hawaii to look at it, but ancient astronomy was just a class or two in their curriculum.

Anyway, the unproven theory is, actually partly based on the VAT4956 vs. the Strm. Kambyses 400, that the Seleucids made some adjustments in the lunar times, only when they made the adjustments when discovered by modern astronomers, it made it seem the Earth's rotational speed was increasing. To distract from that picture, a day was gradually removed from the timeline, maybe just minutes at a time over thousands of years so that the references are a day off so that the Earth's rotational speed would seem to be slowing down, rather than increasing? In other words, a lunar position on one day might make it seem 12 hours early, but on the next day would seem 12 hours late. So they took a day out of the calendar to make it seem the Earth was slowing down rather than speeding up. And now with some ancient comparisons everything works only it's a day off, which would be a conversion issue. It's one of the jokes of ancient Greek astronomy. The revisionists ended making it seem the earth was moving slower back then than now, so that was fixed so that it seems the earth was moving faster back then than now, since it is more logical that the earth is slowing down due to lunar tidal drag or some other lame excuse then speeding up.

Now, there may be another reason you are getting a day off but that missing day has always been an otherwise unexplained mystery for really ancient comparisons, say from the Iron Age back for whatever astronomy they had. Eclipse times can be precisely corrected when you compare Ptolemy's canon and the Strm. Kambyses 400. When you do, observations are reflected a day earlier. With the current adjustments scientists have made with the so-called "delta-T", things are a day later, generally speaking.

Anyway, the converters don't work for really ancient dates. Apparently it is always a day off. An unproven suspicion is that modern astronomers have removed a day to support the deceleration theory, but that in reality, the Earth's rotational speed, using Egyptian records shows the Earth's speed has been constant as it is now, not varying even 1/100ths of a second.

So as others have suggested, in this field of imprecision, don't take it too seriously if you're getting some unexplained results. You have dishonest or incompetent translators on top of dishonest scholars on top of dishonest historians. At one point, you can only go so far. My routine was simply to calculate things two different ways, one based on the dating, one based on the actual astronomy, then compare the two.

Happy researching.

110

Four Blood Moons might be significant

by CharlieSmith1975 in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuqzhnx7xma.

the bible does say that the "day of jehovah" (armageddon) would be associated with the sun becoming dark followed by the moon turning to blood.

but the moon turning to blood is specific to a total lunar eclipse.

CharlieSmith1975

Please get some help?

I don't get it. Lots of people believe in heaven and the Bible and all that. Are they all "crazy" also? You think, somehow, that because none of this makes sense to you that every body else is defective? What if YOU are the defective one in this case?

My position is to respect a person's personal journey and their experience, whether they can fit God into that or not. An atheist is still a person with feelings. If that's where his mind is right now, then that's on him.

I think I annoy people because I'm intelligent and still believe. But lots of witnesses believe. Lots of Christians believe. When the flood came, everybody was a believer. When Armageddon comes, everybody will be a believer. Until then I suppose it is just the "haves and have nots" out here sharing.

26

Source material: "144,000" and "anointed" in The Watchtower, 2000-2015

by Doug Mason in

a collation of statements made in the watchtower from 2000 to 2015 of "144,000" and "anointed".

http://www.jwstudies.com/wt_magazines_from_2000_to_2015_on_144000_and_the_anointed.pdf .

doug.

CharlieSmith1975

Dear Mr. Mason.

You have a lot of questions reflecting your doubts and skepticism, it would seem.

I trust the Bible based on what I believe and in part on my own experiences and research. But as I've learned over time, much of what one person sees and understand is not transferable.

As far as exactly where "heaven" is, I really have no idea. But it also doesn't matter since I believe God exists in dimensions not related to the physical world or even related to our concept of time. I know, relatively speaking, often when angels come to the earth they are spoken of as going "down" into the earth. Actually, and I have no real basis for this, I think the universe is like an ornament of sorts in the middle of the floor in front of God's thrown, like a black whole. The Bible says the earth is God's "footstool." So when angels go into the universe they go into this object at God's feet. Nothing I can prove though.

In your case, I think you want not to believe without proof. But while I don't need "proof" for everything I believe, I wouldn't believe if you were able to actually disprove it. So we are on opposite sides of that equasion. So I can still believe what is not disproved and you can't believe what is not proved. That's okay. We need more skeptics in the world, actually, I think.

Have a great day.

13

Flogging the Vat 4956 horse

by MightierThanTheSword in

i'm just curious about something & wonder if the experts could help.. basically i am documenting all of the main lines of evidence for the jws being the one & then investigating each claim systematically.. i have now reached the dreaded november 1st, 2011 watchtower & am sitting in front of a copy of cartes du ciel and a babylonian calendar converter i found at http://www.staff.science.uu.nl/~gent0113/babylon/babycal_converter.htm.

i realise these claims have been challenged and documented in depth elsewhere, but i'm keen to do my own research rather than copy & paste.

my question is regarding date conversion - when inputting the gregorian dates as given at the bottom of the tablet's translation i found at http://www.caeno.org/pdf/f019_translation.pdf then the lunar positions all seemed pretty close (visually, i wasn't dealing with exact degrees here).

CharlieSmith1975

Actually, if I understand what is going on, I think you need to supplement your investigation with a good astronomy program. There are lots of them out there that I think are reliable but some easier to use than others.

At this stage of investigation though, you need to realize there are some relative issues as far as any given date. That's because the location you reference will make a difference in the date. May 1st in one place at noon might be May 2nd at Midnight in another place. So every seeming discrepancy may not be a true discrepancy.

Also, the WTS only recently extended conversation about the VAT4956. Their focus document otherwise was a document called the "Strm. Kambyses 400" where they confirm the 7th year of Kambyses in 523 BC which relates to the return from Babylon in 537 BC. So be sure to also check out the Kambyses text. The VAT4956 and the Strm. Kambyses 400 are the only two eclipses specifically referenced in "The Crime of Claudius Ptolemy" by Robert R. Newton. Those two texts become the center of focus for this period and they are very similar in that both are "copies" from the Seleucid Period and both are in the form of a "diary."

The WTS likes the Strm. Kambyses 400 because it supports their 537 BC return from Babylon upon which their 607 BC dating is derived. But they don't like the VAT4956 because it points to year 37 in 568 BC, which contradicts their dating to 588 BC. Only now they like the VAT4956 because Line 3 describes the "moon as 1 cubit in front of beta-Virginis" on the 9th of Nisan, which is a mismatch for 568 BC, but amazingly a match for 588 BC. This works for them even if it is just confusing since clearly all the planetary references only match 568 BCE and they know this.

Enjoy your studies!

40

Flier on "Day and Week of Christ's Death" to be mailed out to Kingdom Halls this week!

by CharlieSmith1975 in

the tricky thing about a mass mailing to all the kingdom halls is that mail is often not delivered to the kingdom hall but to a po box.

it is super easy to get all the addresses to hundreds of kingdom halls across the country and even have those addresses printed out for you as labels!

but when i did that before i got about a third of them back.

CharlieSmith1975

Village Idiot

Charlie, With all due respect, I think that you need to meditate on this and your beliefs before sending anything out.// ROFL! Did you read any of the flier? This is just saying that the Jews made a holiday out of the night they left Egypt, the same night they ate Passover. That's a no-brainer! If the Jews left on the 15th that night after Passover then Jesus was arrested at the same time, on the 15th. How hard is that to comprehend? And it's not going to change. There's nothing to meditate on. The ONLY significant thing here is that the WTS is teaching something different and need to update. I'm getting the elders in certain cities to put pressure on them to do it. As long as everybody is in the dark like the WTS wants then they can keep everybody fooled and in the dark. OTOH, the faithful anointed will have this information now to accuse the WTS. The WTS is now made up of the wise and foolish virgins. The wise virgins are the secret anointed, the foolish virgins are still the public anointed associated with and worshipping the WTS. The flier confirms Jehovah's disapproval of the WTS. It's symbolic, though and only needs to have a few witnesses. The Bible says the "false prophet" will be destroyed in the lake of fire "while still alive" meaning it will be an active organization at the time of its destruction. The flier simply proves it. But as some say, whose paying attention at this point? Anyone who was going to be saved by this is already saved. All those who would not be saved are still not interested. As prophesied! (i.e. "They took no note until the flood came and swept them away.")

@charlie what pot are you smoking?//

Nothing! What gives? Are you brain dead? This is SIMPLE STUFF. If I told you that Jesus rose on a Saturday night and he was supposed to be in the grave three nights so WHICH THREE NIGHTS WERE JESUS IN THE GRAVE? Then that's a Third-Grade answer. So what do you think? Can you figure it out? This tells us what day of the week Jesus died on. Period. But it's simple math.

So why not HUMOR ME, okay? I'll ask you a simple question: What three nights do you believe Jesus was in the grave? That's simple. Direct. What is your response? In three words? It is not more complicated than that.

110

Four Blood Moons might be significant

by CharlieSmith1975 in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuqzhnx7xma.

the bible does say that the "day of jehovah" (armageddon) would be associated with the sun becoming dark followed by the moon turning to blood.

but the moon turning to blood is specific to a total lunar eclipse.

CharlieSmith1975

"The world may drastically change after April 4th....."

Well if that is the case, I am going to wait to file my taxes! //

hahaha! Not if you're due for a REFUND! Get the money now as soon as you can so you'll have some cash on hand. In fact, that is also what I'll do. Make sure I have some cash instead of depending on the banks or credit. Glad you brought this up!!!

110

Four Blood Moons might be significant

by CharlieSmith1975 in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuqzhnx7xma.

the bible does say that the "day of jehovah" (armageddon) would be associated with the sun becoming dark followed by the moon turning to blood.

but the moon turning to blood is specific to a total lunar eclipse.

CharlieSmith1975

So, no, you aren't willing to put your money where your mouth is. You've no faith in your made up prophecies.

Lame.//

It's not a prophecy, it's an ALERT.

But what's the big deal. Having a week's supply of water and canned goods is what everybody should be doing anyway. You never know when there will be a power outage or martial law in the times we live in. I'm just SHARING what is going on with me. I'm not that sure about these moons. God didn't send an angel down to tell me "this is it! These are the eclipses that will happen before the great tribulation so make sure you have plenty of water and can goods for a week."

I'm just NOTING some people are talking about it, it is a rather rare event falling on Jewish holidays, and the Bible does imply two eclipses will precede the great day of God the Almighty. So I'm just saying, let's see what happens. If something happens, meaning the UN takes over world rule, which begins the "great day of God the Almighty" then those two eclipses would fulfill that prophecy. I'm not claiming anything. I'm just saying, if in fact, two eclipses are implied in scripture, then these might just be the two because the UN is getting ready to form a world government. It's inevitable. The global economy demands it. No country can operate on its own any more and Barack Obama is already the head of the UN Security Council and saying "peace and security." So. smile

I'm just saying, be prepared. Make sure you have extra water and some non-perishables to stay at home and off the streets for a week. Doesn't that make sense? Just in case?

26

Source material: "144,000" and "anointed" in The Watchtower, 2000-2015

by Doug Mason in

a collation of statements made in the watchtower from 2000 to 2015 of "144,000" and "anointed".

http://www.jwstudies.com/wt_magazines_from_2000_to_2015_on_144000_and_the_anointed.pdf .

doug.

CharlieSmith1975

JWs have a misconception of the 144,000. The 144,000 are the natural Jews in the kingdom. The "source" for understanding the 144,000 is Isa. 6:13

"13 “But there will still be a tenth in it, and it will again be burned, like a big tree and like an oak, which after they are cut down leave a stump; a holy seed* will be its stump.”

In other words, yes the Jews fail and their tree is cut down, but God leaves a holy root. That holy root is the 144,000 made up of natural Jews, 12K from each tribe. The rest of the tree are the grated in gentiles who make up 90% of the tree, which is 1,440,000 total.

JWs don't understand this. Thanks for pointing out their false teaching in this regard.

Charlie

1

Source material on "1935"

by Doug Mason in

early watchtower sources dealing with the identification in 1935 of the great crowd:.

http://www.jwstudies.com/1935_in_divine_purpose_and_contemporary_publications.pdf .

doug.

CharlieSmith1975

The parable of the vineyard workers confirm that the WTS would have a 2-class system. That is, the first-hour workers are promised the penny, meaning heavenly hope. But from the third-hour workers to the 11th-hour workers they are promised "whatever is fair" and thus work for less than the penny. Thus you have two groups of workers, those who know in advance they will get the penny and those who don't think they will.

3.5 years is a half hour so 1 hour is 7 years. So the vineyard work is a total of 77 years from 1914 to 1991 (1914 + 77 = 1991). The workers are paid during the 12th hour, from 1991-1998, from the last to the first. But as you can see, 21 years after 1914 is 1935, which is when the third-hour workers would have shown up. So 1935 is a valid, Biblical reference for the WTS.

What is sad is that the WTS didn't realize that after the work ALL the workers would be offered the penny. That is, all the "other sheep": become anointed and of the heavenly class. The faithful ones, that is. But that doesn't mean there will not be an earthly class.

As Isa 6:13 notes, there is a tree that is chopped down but the root is left remaining in it, which is a tenth. So the 144,000 are really that root, the remnant Jewish root of 144,000, with 12,000 from each tribe. That means the total number in the kingdom is 1,440,000. So there were more than enough seats in the kingdom to invite all the faithful other sheep between 1991-1998.

Anyway, that's for your information regarding 1935 and the two-class system. It's Biblical and fulfilled with JWs. The 144,000 are the natural Jews, one tenth of the whole. the entire heavenly class is 1,440,000.