Posts by spiritwalker

132

I have a hard time blaming the Watchtower

by spiritwalker in

jw
friends

" if the watchtower said it, and the men on the platform preached it, then it must have been true.

so it was very hard to accept as an adult, that they were wrong.

i blame myself.

spiritwalker

There are way too many people here who are not given the choice to just leave an abusive religion, that would be too easy.

As a child we are puppets of our family control, but as adults we are free to make our own choices. If people choose not to or use excuses or fear as a reason to stay in something they no longer believe in. That is their choice and not the Witnesses. They need to take responsibility for their own actions and not blame someone else.

Whilst things are not all black and white as they have been presented by you, by and large we have to accept some responsibility for the fact that we became JWs and lived that way of life for some period of time. ... Accepting responsibility also means we can live much happier lives too.

Thank you. This is a lot of what I mean and why I posted it.

I strongly object to your argument. You are arguing for personal responsibility, which I do agree with; but you are willing to ignore the concept of CORPORATE responsibility. If we are responsible as individuals to be smart consumers, so to speak, then corporations should not be exempted from being good citizens; this precludes lying and misrepresenting facts to separate us from our money/support.

If it was not for the term, "CORPORATE responsibility", their would be several lawyers out of a job. It does present something though. That some adults stepped out of the box and made choices for themselves and found that what they thought, is not the truth. It does show, to some degree, people making personal choices. However, they are sueing others for choices they made in the past. The main point I have stated from the beginning. Is that we as adults have to take responsibly. Saying we were in some other mental state or that we were controlled. Is like saying we were not thinking inside in the past and now we are. Although my thought pattern was based on wrong information in the past, it was still my thoughts and actions. I choose not to research the other side of the issue and to accept what I was told. So I was responsible for my actions and accepting what would be deemed wrong behavior in others. ME ME ME, that is who did it and not someone else. I did it and I take responsibility for what I did. I am sorry that seems so hard to accept, but it is the way I see it. Now early someone said that is a hippie attitude. Yet the hippie, or liberal attitude, in society. Is normally to blame the government or want to be cared for more by the government. The conservative attitude is to want people to take personal responsibility. Although I am registered independent, I do see this view as leaning more conservative and less liberal. So it would not be a hippie attitude.

36

Some things I'd like to do in life....

by logansrun in

jw
friends

teach my students (future) how to think.. live somewhere other than chicago for at least a year.

learn how to cook kick-ass healthy meals.

travel asia.. own a horse.. write a book, even if it never gets published.. have sex in outer space (okay, i'll settle for the beach).

spiritwalker

I would like to see the day when the news is annouced, "Cancer is now cured" and no longer will it be something that takes people from this world to young and to early.

132

I have a hard time blaming the Watchtower

by spiritwalker in

jw
friends

" if the watchtower said it, and the men on the platform preached it, then it must have been true.

so it was very hard to accept as an adult, that they were wrong.

i blame myself.

spiritwalker

The difference between the WTBTS and the companies mentioned above is that neither McDonald's nor any tobacco company utilize high-mind-control techniques to coerce us into using their brands.

Sorry, have to take strong disagreement to that. Advertising is and will always be a form of mind control. Colors, Words, Timing and all of those little jingles are set to control your mind into thinking you need a product. The society is no different, is uses the power phrase and words to get you to thinking that your thoughts are really yours, when in fact they are really theirs. Yet, you took it in and decided it was what you wanted. No excuse for a weak mind.

Someone comes up to you, lies to you, wins your trust, promises you things and because you trust him
you believe him. Is it your fault he lied to you?

It's your fault that you accepted it. Hell, if you are going to believe everything someone tells you. Then why not believe you have a true meaning in this country with your one vote. Sorry, again "Personal Responsibility!" It might be a hard fact to face.

The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society is a mind control cult. It can, has and is using classic mind-control techniques to seduce the most intelligent and rational of people.

Interesting, but that is the case of the US government and all other forms of life. Sorry, but once again we are adults and we have to at some point take responsibility for our own actions. You see, this is the over all feeling I get from this board and from former Jehovah's Witnesses. It is the, "always me, everyone is out to get me", attitude. I hate to tell you this, but as an adult you are responsible for your crimes and get punishment, once you are of legal age. Whether or not you mother was to nice to you as a child or your dad hated you. YOU decided to become a Witness and you accept the consequences. It is nice to try and push the blame on something else or the organization. They do entice us with all this, "Paradise" and "Eternal Life" and we want to see ourselves as smarter then the mouse going for the cheese. Yet that is not the case, we can blame them all we want. Yet since the beginning of the organization there has been equal say out there on what they really are. The fact that we choose to only get a one sided view from the organization or family, is our choice and we should not be playing the blame game.

Who but the WBTS is to blame for the endless mind-rape of women and children in dreaded interogations conducted by warped old men in the back-room of every Kingdom Hall?

The Watchtower magazine does not say, "rape people", the people who did these actions are responsible for their own actions. Trying to shift hatred from the people and act like the society did it all, is just another false hope. People do what they do, because they at some point choose too. These type of people choose to rape and choose to hurt people. How this subject got on to this post is a little stretching the issue, but I approached it anyway.

Your argument is like saying the mugging victim is responsible because he was walking in the wrong place or the rape victim is responsible because of what she wore. It is also like blaming the wife who gets beaten by her husband daily.

Easy answer, mug victim, try following some simple suggestions from the police department and realize the person mugging you is making personal choice too. Wife, you have as much choice to leave as the choice to stay. Fear might be a factor in both, but do not stretch a comment about a religion into some abuse talk, when it has nothing to do with it. Unless you have a personal ax to bury and a point to share that is something you are dealing with as a personal choice.

In a nutshell, I would say that the Society is emotionally abusive. Is an abuse victim to blame for their abuse? I don't think so.

The world is emotional abusive and the Society is just like all Christian religions. Why stop at Christianity though, all religions.

The difference between the WTBTS and the companies mentioned above is that neither McDonald's nor any tobacco company utilize high-mind-control techniques to coerce us into using their brands.

This was covered to begin with. I have not seen one thought that counters what I am saying. Which is that the society did not make your inner mind say, "yes I will accept this!" You did. You might have done it as a child and thought, "this will make mom and dad happy." Yet as an adult you kept with it and kept going and going and going. If you are here though and out of the religion, I would say you have stepped further into adult responsibility. However, if you still think the society is the one to blame for everything that you did. Then perhaps it is time to blame everything and everyone for everything you do and never accept that you choose any personal choice. It would make life a lot easier and we would feel less guilt. No one has changed my mind, I still see that what I am saying makes sense.

132

I have a hard time blaming the Watchtower

by spiritwalker in

jw
friends

" if the watchtower said it, and the men on the platform preached it, then it must have been true.

so it was very hard to accept as an adult, that they were wrong.

i blame myself.

spiritwalker

As a Witness, I accepted what was said, "hook, line and sinker." If the Watchtower said it, and the men on the platform preached it, then it must have been true. So it was very hard to accept as an adult, that they were wrong. Yet in doing this, I do not blame the Watchtower for what I accepted as a Witness. I blame myself. Why?

As a society, I think that we all want to blame others for our own mistakes. A woman sues McDonald's because the coffee is to hot and burns her. People sue cigarette companies because they cause cancer, even though this has been on the labels for years. People sue for election problems when their candidate loses, even though the elections have been the same way for years. In the end, I can not open a newspaper or watch a news program, without seeing the message, "it was not my fault, it was someone else's."

So perhaps as an adult, I enjoy actually accepting my own responsibly and not trying to find someone else to blame for everything. Now I realize, it would be very easy to say certain things, about the religion, and say it is very wrong. Perhaps; family pressure, instilling the fear of god, brainwashing, gossip, shunning, etc. These are all valid points, yet if adults stopped letting others do the thinking for them, none of these problems would exist. Basically, if you attach puppet strings to your life and tell others to pull them and do not resist, then the dance you dance is something you allowed and not something they caused.

As I sit here writing this, I am really wanting to say, "yes but ... " to a million things I can think of that makes me want to think that the Watchtower misleads people. Yet in all of them, I can root back to someone picking up that Watchtower, reading it and actually having to accept it to cause any impact. They accepted it, they allowed it into their lives and THEY not THEM are responsible for their actions. Much the same as people who read one sided political messages and getting emotional before they get all the facts. When does this take affect?

I think it takes affect when your parents cut your puppet strings and allow you to be an adult. When that happens and you choose to follow a religion and not learn to think for yourself. Then you deserve the life that it goes with. Religion is a weird thing in history, it has done the thinking for many men and woman and not just with the Jehovah's Witnesses. So to blame them and not see the fact that we are all adults who hold our own level of responsibly, just does not seem right to me and reminds me of what I see each day in the media.

So when I look back and realize all the stupid, stupid things I accepted. I don't say to myself, "those people sure did lead me astray." No, rather I say, "I sure let myself get lead in the wrong direction," and I find myself less angry or even emotional at all, about the Witnesses. Heck, if I had that good of bait for bass fishing as they have for keeping people in their religion. I would limit out each time and would never need to try so many new things each year. The only thing that gets the bass to the lure I cast in the water is the their fins swiming to it . Their personal desire to change course! Although, I have never seen a fish take a lure, "hook, line and sinker." I have seen many Witnesses do it.

18

Criticism is unavoidable

by logansrun in

jw
friends

as i've stepped off the train of a myopic weltenschuung and entered the busy streets of competing ideas, i have come to a very interesting realization: all claims, ideas, philosophies, behaviors -- everything -- can be criticised.

it doesn't matter how good your argument is, how beneficial it might be to humanity -- it can and will be put through the machine of skepticism and kinks in the armor will become known.

criticism is unavoidable.

spiritwalker

Perhaps the freedom of Democracy allows this. In that we are able to actually explore new ideas, believe in different thinking and accept what seems unacceptable to others. Yet, much like history, much of what mankind accepts, can be proven wrong in science. I kind of look at life and our beliefs as a large cosmic, "king of the hill." Everyone wants to be the one who is right, and feels that everyone else is wrong. So in many ways they are pushing each other off and leaving the top position empty, and without any possibility of occupancy.

So perhaps the greatest gift that Democracy and religious freedom have given us, is the idea that we can not just push our beliefs upon others and not expect the same in return to be done to us. Which to me, causes the human race to reach for and grow into something better. The fear and control that kept mankind from growing mentally in the past, are now gone with the freedom to admit your wrong and be shown you are wrong by others. Perhaps superstition is finally on it's last life.

Who knows, maybe all this mess of people proving religion wrong, and religion trying to prove science wrong, will collide in growth as a species into something that is actually right for a change.

3

Chicken Little Religion

by spiritwalker in

jw
friends

spiritwalker

13

Where are the liars now?

by spiritwalker in

jw
friends

when i was a child, and being raised a jehovah's witness, i remember a lot of key members of the local congregation.

there were the elders who always seemed to be there for my family.

there were the families that were the central figures of the congregation and even the local witness community.

spiritwalker

When I was a child, and being raised a Jehovah's Witness, I remember a lot of key members of the local congregation. There were the elders who always seemed to be there for my family. There were the families that were the central figures of the congregation and even the local Witness community. All of which were seen preaching one solid message from door-to-door and on the platform.

"The end is near, millions will never need to know what death is like."

Which, in a online community of former Witnesses, the basic message to what I am saying should be easily understood. Basically, these people were always talking about the last days and they had hope that they would never die. I too, felt this was possible and even imagined seeing these people with me in that paradise earth, that was soon to come. Yet where are those people now, now that I am no longer a Witness?

The sad truth is this, many of them have grown old and died? They spent all their lives preaching about the end and about the possibility of never dying and yet they are all dying. I am forever reminded when I make this comment, that Noah preached for many years and yet the end took a great deal of time to arrive. Yet the often overlooked part of that illustration is this, "Noah was kept alive in the legend, to see the end, and did not preach about something he would not Witness actually happening." So basically, he got a reward of some kind for his hard work in the legend. What did the Witnesses, I knew so well as a child, get for their hard work?

Well many got to live a life of no advanced education, no high paying jobs with the possibility of purchasing some items they dreamed of and in some cases the option of raising a family. Why? Because the end was coming the they would not have to experience death. A promise that simply never came true. Does this mean Witness adults lie to children?

Well I thought about this tonight, as Christmas approaches, and reflected on some reasoning Witnesses used with that holiday. Telling children that Santa Claus is real and then letting them learn he isn't, as they get older, is a very damaging element to grow up with. Something that makes children build a lack of trust for adults in the earlier years of their life. Well, perhaps the blinders are on! Because being told by people I trusted, loved and looked to as an authority. That the end was near and death would not be something many would experience, and then later attending memorial after memorial to their lives. I began to have some trust issues with their message, when hardly any of those people even exist today.

So perhaps it is time religion, adults and anyone who does the same, to start learning a lesson. Children are only small adults that have not been lied to enough to learn the truth about life. So lie away, but we humans do figure it out in time. Santa is not real, and neither is the paradise earth that is soon to come. They all reside in the imagination and memories. The memories of being told stories by people who only have one location to be seen in now, in the memories of our mind. As they died, even though they said, "they wouldn't!"

33

jw view on sex

by abraham in

genesis1:28 -gods purpose is to populating the earth , sex is not wrong but .

sexual before merriage is wrong .

(1 thess.

spiritwalker

From what I have seen of active Jehovah's Witnesses. Their biggest fear and hardest objection to overcome, is reasoning that makes sense, and yet has nothing to do with the Bible. As you see, to make sense of any reasoning from the Bible, a person or organization must often twist it's meaning or take comments out of context or above all, "IGNORE the history to the time it was written."

Would your grandfather's advice in the 1950's to your father, on what to look for in a car purchase, make any sense to listen to today? No, for the make of cars have changed, the technology has grown and the environmental factors and landscape we live in is different. Yet, if that advice had been written down and buried in the sand for a thousand years. Perhaps we would think it was holy and all mankind would be stuck with advice that made no sense and would be spending five meetings a week trying to get it through their followers minds, on how it does.

To examine the Bible, is to examine history and the time in which it was written. The people then, were the same people who created the myths of Zeus, Buddha and so on. To class these as myth and to ignore the mythology of Christianity. Is to fail to see the role religion played in history. Advice is a wonderful thing, I here it here and I read it in the Bible. Some of what I read applied to me, and some of what I read applied to other circumstances. Perhaps that is the growth of mankind, and not the anchor of religion that keeps people from moving on.

Then again, if you read this and are a devout Christian or Witness, I may just be Satan or one of his demons speaking.

33

jw view on sex

by abraham in

genesis1:28 -gods purpose is to populating the earth , sex is not wrong but .

sexual before merriage is wrong .

(1 thess.

spiritwalker

As a Witness, I was always amazed at the theme sex took in all things. There were often times, that I felt embarrassed to be sitting in a room with children, while the man on stage discussed masturbation and oral sex. Whether is was presented as sin, or as advice, the fact was that it caused many parents to present information to their children at a age they might not have wanted too.

The sex drive of the human being, is the reason there are nearly seven billion people in this world. If it wasn't for the sex drive, your mom would not have gotten busy with your father and made you the person who can respond and post, today. Yet, people always want to present sex as a sin and something to almost be ashamed of. You should feel guilt that you looked at someone of the opposite sex and felt excited, when all you experienced was a natural reaction of the brain and sex drive that keeps this species growing.

Now I realize, that the argument presented by religion is that sex outside of a marriage relationship is wrong. Yet we should realize or at least acknowledge why this is the case. After all, religion was developed to give moral code. Moral code was often developed to keep the masses healthy. When man went from being a cave dweller or wanderer of the country side, to gathering in masses. It was not exactly the case, that a local health clinic could solve your issues. So often, it was presented by supposed divine enlightenment, that rules suddenly came into place that made people abide by standards that kept them healthier. Because of the high death rate of woman at child birth, men were encouraged to take more then one wife to maintain a female presence to raise what children he had.

Homosexuality's reasons for being classed as a sin, did not have so much to do with the same sex relationships. As much as it had to do with health issues, and the propitiation of the species. As much as we want to seem that we are something better then the beast in the field. At the core to our thinking, is often the same chemical reactions that cause a mammal to mate and create life to keep the species going. As for the relationships that have developed from these chemical reactions, they are really only side points to the basic them. Keep life going from one generation to the next. So basically, if you choose not to do so, it is not something sinful, but rather it is simply growing beyond the animal species we are. In many ways, a person who seeks out relationships that matter, rather then relationships that simple procreate. Is expanding on the human mental condition and not committing the sin that has prejudiced our society, because of the evolution of moral codes into religion.

As a society, we almost seemed condemned to ignore the fact that everything we do, started with something more simple in the past. Even our language, started with grunts and symbols. So we acknowledge this, and yet do we do not realize the reason for why religion exist and we condemn based on old thoughts, that had reasons in the past, yet do not especially apply to this world's culture today. If a person decided to have sex, while not married, or with another person of the same sex. Then modern society has provided the tools to do these acts safely and responsibly, through items and procedures developed by science. Something ancient society did not do, so they did the next best thing, they made it a religious sin and thus controlled through guilt. To get people to do what was healthy.

Isn't it wonderful to realize sometimes, how much further our culture has grown. To not have to rely on such ancient dogma, to keep ourselves healthier and more responsible as humans. Yes a marriage can be a wonderful thing. It can also be hell on earth. Yes having children as a man and woman, in a heterosexual sex act, can be wonderful too. Yet with a society of seven billion, maybe a few less children coming into this world, is a sign of the future and not a sin of the past.

Something to think about, if nothing else. Better then thinking and preaching GUILT!

8

Center of the Bible : Input Needed, please help!

by spiritwalker in

jw
friends

assistance requested.

a christian at work gave this to me and i nearly started laughing.

although they felt it made them all the more right.

spiritwalker

Assistance requested. A Christian at work gave this to me and I nearly started laughing. Although they felt it made them all the more right. I found a good link at :

http://www.snopes.com/religion/center.htm

: I can think of several other reasons why this can not be the divine hope people hope it is, from my theological education, but I would love more insight.

The Center of the Bible

This is pretty strange or odd how it worked out this way. Even if you are not religious, you should read this.

What is the shortest chapter in the Bible?
Answer - Psalm 117

What is the longest chapter in the Bible?
Answer - Psalm 119

Which chapter is in the center of the Bible?
Answer - Psalms 118

Fact: There are 594 chapters before Psalms 118. There are 594 chapters after Psalms 118. Add these numbers up and you get 1188.

What is the center verse in the Bible?
Answer - Psalms 118:8

Does this verse say something significant about God's perfect will for our lives?

Did you know . . .

1) Psalm 118 is the middle chapter of the entire Bible?

2) Psalm 117, before Psalm 118 is the shortest chapter in the Bible?

3) Psalm 119, after Psalm 118 is the longest chapter in the Bible?

4) The Bible has 594 chapters before Psalm 118 and 594 chapters after Psalm 118?

5) If you add up all the chapters except Psalm 118, you get a total of 1188 chapters?

6) 1188 or Psalm 118 verse 8 is the middle verse of the entire Bible?

Should the central verse not have a fairly important message? "It is better to take refuge in the Lord than to trust in man." - Psalm 118:8

Is this central verse not also the central theme of the entire Bible? This is not a coincidence. God is in complete control.