Posts by _Morpheus

I suspect that as with all things, mileage will probably vary. For some people, expulsion and the loss of their family, their friends and their good name might be inconsequential and for others, not so much.

I agree whole heartedly especially for those that were born in and know nothing else, the price could be high. Again, though, i want to make a distinction, one that your example allows for...

Even the JW faith itself seems to recognize social pressure as coercion, at least when it's convenient for them to do so.

You then cited a relevant quote regarding the catholic priesthood/celibacy as well as a dress code at work. Im a HUGE fan of hanging the org from their own petard. I often say we need not ever exagerate the facts since the facts alone hang the org everyday....

but thats a bit of a fallacy here. I dont agree with the orgs reasoning and therefore wont apply it back to them.

One has a choice to be a catholic priest or not and one knows the relevant details in advance. You may not fully realize the difficulty in staying celibate forever. You may feel pressured to stay celibate once you’ve taken your vows. It dosent negate your choice. You can still have sex, you can leave the priesthood (tens of thousands have through the centuries).

The same for a dress code at work. The choice isnt negated. There is a dress code at my job, both company mandated and federal safety. Everyday when i get up i have a choice. I can either dress as required or not. Over my long career i have, many many times, not followed part or even all of the dress code. On rare occasions i have been sanctioned as a result. And yet every day when i get up i have the choice to follow all, part or even none of it. Its always my choice.

But let me digress back to the underlying uncomfortable truth: most days when i get up and get dressed for work i choose to follow the dress code. I like my job (more or less) and so i play by the rules. The uncomfortable aspect for us at times, is that most jw’s LIKE their religion, more or less. The WANT to play by the rules. We may not agree, we may understand that they are deluded and lied to and that most of their religious policies are based on garbage... but that dosent negate their choice to believe it and accept it.

When we talk about children dying the courts should be involved, be it russian or otherwise. Let the kids grow up and then decide. But when we are talking about adults we can and should educate but i will always be against enforcing a view.

And lets not put russia on the high ground here. This is simply putin playing nice with the orthadox church. He isnt some paragon of virtue trying to ‘do the right thing’.

55

JWs Outlawed in Russia

by minimus in

jw
friends

they are banned!.

_Morpheus

To borrow a scenario from The Godfather, if someone were to hand you a blank check and tell you, "In ten seconds either your signature will be on that check or your brains will be on the check" have they taken away your freedom of choice?
I would argue that freedom of choice in the absolute sense is an abstract that's virtually impossible to take away from anyone. What actually gets taken away is the ability to freely exercise it.
So when you say that JW's don't forbid anything; that they don't have the authority to forbid and that it ultimately comes down to freedom of choice, I don't disagree, but I don't think that's quite the issue.

I certainly want to acknowledge your good and reasonable point, and i always love a godfather reference.

I also dont disagree that absolute freedom of choice is never taken away but can be impinged upon. We generally refer to that as coercion, as was the case in the godfather reference above. Nobody would argue that the band leader REALLY had a choice beyond signing johnnys release or losing his life, which is only a choice in the absolute sense you and both agree on.

the wt, however, dosent have that sort of real power or control. The worst they can even claim is to df you. Having been a witness for many many years i understand the severe ramifications that implies and the implied consequences (dying at armageddon and so forth), but in the end its a mild form of coercion at most. Ive been pressured more by car salesman. Its part of being an adult that we have to own decisions and live (or die) with them.

The simple and unpleasant truth of jw’s blood refusal is that most of them believe god doesn't want them to have blood. They are on board with the belief. That we disagree and see it differently, that we dont agree with their scriptural interpretation isnt relevant to their choice.

I think its convenient for us, after the fact, to view their beliefs as coercion, to view it as having no choice, because it makes us not responsible in hindsight for our choices. That was then and is now false. We always had a choice. We made it. Thats why we are here today. They refuse blood and shun because they want to

55

JWs Outlawed in Russia

by minimus in

jw
friends

they are banned!.

_Morpheus

Td, thats where i have to break with you. Jw’s dont “forbid” anything, nor do they have the authority to forbid. They have no power their membership dosent willingly grant. Your free to leave anytime. Your family and friends dont have shun you, its a choice they make. I realize this is an unpopular opinion but we all have choices even if those choices are influenced by a high control religious group.

55

JWs Outlawed in Russia

by minimus in

jw
friends

they are banned!.

_Morpheus

Its a simple question of individual choice and liberty. Its never cause for celebration when a government infringes on such, even when its for a cause you like. Tomorrow they infringe on you.

9

Two Sad an Interesting Stories From When I Hosted the Ex-Jehovah's Witness Meetup Group in Portland

by new boy in

jw
friends

for many years i hosted the ex-jehovah’s witness meet up group in portland oregon.

i heard a lot of sad stories about what people had lost trying to get away from the jehovah’s witnesses.

there were whole families that were wiped out.

_Morpheus

And i imagine she was trying to hold things together with him aside from the stress of just having delivered a baby... i was just curious as to the finer points. I look forward to the book, i will definitely be buying a copy :)

9

Two Sad an Interesting Stories From When I Hosted the Ex-Jehovah's Witness Meetup Group in Portland

by new boy in

jw
friends

for many years i hosted the ex-jehovah’s witness meet up group in portland oregon.

i heard a lot of sad stories about what people had lost trying to get away from the jehovah’s witnesses.

there were whole families that were wiped out.

_Morpheus

Question: why was the babys father involved? As the mother she had final say. If she wanted the transfusion for the baby and he didnt, his view is irrelevant. I cant imagine a hospital honoring his views over hers

11

They are out!

by zeb in

jw
friends

all the thai boys and their coach are free from the cave!.

_Morpheus

Oh man that was crazy! And they all survived... as the story gets told in more detail it will only get more incredible. A happy ending seems so rare its nice to hear about this one