Have you ever been seated on a body of elders where the '2 witness' rule was invoked? Have you ever been a victim of some sort of sexual abuse or accused of some grievous act for which you could be df'ed?
Hmmm..... what would any of that matter?
_Morpheus
JoinedPosts by _Morpheus
-
58
Two witness rule: who cares?
by _Morpheus ini find people railing against the so called “two witness rule” puzzling.
i think its a complete and total non issue.
for those that protest, argue or advocate for change in that rule, why?
-
-
_Morpheus
-
58
Two witness rule: who cares?
by _Morpheus ini find people railing against the so called “two witness rule” puzzling.
i think its a complete and total non issue.
for those that protest, argue or advocate for change in that rule, why?
-
-
_Morpheus
@dub- I think it matters, but I think it's become the focus of many and really it's not the answer. They will hold to their "scriptural teaching" on the number of witnesses but regardless of what they do internally there needs to be external involvement as well. Nobody is going to change their internal policies but external forces can hold them accountable and enact mandatory reporting with penalties for failure to do so.
i understand that some may feel im playing devils advocate but largely what i quoted from you is my point. Change the rule or not, it doesnt fix whats wrong and all the focus on the religious rule (two witnesses) is irrelevant to law enforcement and real justice.
Frankly in most cases it's the parent(s) fault for not reporting an incident to the police. As a parent if my child told me she was molested by brother ___ I would simultaneously call the elders and police. It would be pretty much a non issue if these brain washed brain dead parents had done this. I know it sounds simple but that's why I don't know why it's more convoluted and complicated than it has to be.
Again, i agree. The tragedy is that most dubs wouldnt call the police even if brother or sister blank was df’d for child abuse because they would ‘leave it in the desert gods hands’ after the person was df’d. They would feel real justice would come at the big A.
Report it all. They are not law enforcement. They are not judges. They are just a religion.
-
58
Two witness rule: who cares?
by _Morpheus ini find people railing against the so called “two witness rule” puzzling.
i think its a complete and total non issue.
for those that protest, argue or advocate for change in that rule, why?
-
-
_Morpheus
The ‘two witness rule’ and the resistance to reporting credible allegations to the authorities go hand-in-hand.
i disagree. In no way do i want jw elders deciding if an allegation is “credible”. Its not their job and they are not qualified to decide. Report. It. All.
Currently the organisations starts from a position of protecting its reputation at all costs — don’t bring reproach on Jehovah’s name. When a victim reports abuse, the assumption is that without collaboration nothing can or should be done. There will be no further investigation by the elders and they definitely will not be taking it outside the organisation. The victim and/or victim’s parents will be left in no doubt that they are expected to ‘leave it in Jehovah’s hands’.
your still emphasizing the religion and its roll. It doesn't matter. Its just a religion. Leave law enforcement to law enforcement and let the religion do whatever it does. Never shall the two meet.
What needs to change first is attitude. Correct procedure will follow from that.
and the correct attitude is report crimes to law enforcement. I give zero damns what the religion does or does not do with its members. It just doesnt matter.
The reputation of the organisation needs to take second place to child welfare.
Thats my point.
If that was the case then there would be an eagerness to get to the truth of any report of abuse.
The “truth” by jw standards is irrelevant. It doesnt count for anything. Even if someone is df’d that is no form of justice. So the fu**k what. It doesnt protect any one else and it doesnt punish wrong doers.
That would involve reporting it to the authorities — or supporting the victim and/or parents to do so — and investigating the matter internally to the extent that can be done without prejudicing an official investigation.
I have no idea why you care if an internal jw investigation is done with or without prejudicing. Who. Cares.
Truth be known- Jehovah's Witnesses could end the practice and belief of the "Two Witness Rule" and still stick to their guns on not reporting to the police. All the Two Witness Rule does is prevent pedophiles who are Witnesses from being disfellowshipped.
exactly. Focus on the real problem and the real solution. Dont discourage or dissuade members from reporting abuse as was very prevalent in years gone by. Let all abuse be reported, encourage all abuse to be reported, and let it get sorted it properly. What the organization of jw’s does internally be damned. Its irrelevant to law enforcemnt or real life.
-
58
Two witness rule: who cares?
by _Morpheus ini find people railing against the so called “two witness rule” puzzling.
i think its a complete and total non issue.
for those that protest, argue or advocate for change in that rule, why?
-
-
_Morpheus
No humor implied or offered. Pedophilia is never funny. Its a serious question for serious discussion. Here is my point:
two witnesses, no witnesses who cares. Its the half assed rule of a half assed religions internal star chamber procedings. Its irrelevant.
REPORT THE ACCUSATION TO POLICE.
Why does anyone give a single damn if three church officials think one of their congregants is guilty of child abuse? So what? What if there are two witnesses and they pronounce him guilty. Does that result administer anything like justice??? They could find him or guilty of child abuse and still not df him or her. Even if they do df the offender, so what? Is that any source of justice?
my point is, obsessing over what the cult wants to accept as evidence of a crime is pointless and a waste of time. The end result, even if they changed their rule, is still nothing. Absolutely nothing.
if you want to protest something or demand a REAL change with REAL effect, demand that ALL allegations be reported to the authorities. Period.
An obvious side effect of that is that if real investigators find a real crime and convict said offender, the congregation will be obligated to take action.
So instead of pointless signs demanding some esoteric rule be modified or yelling out side some witness convention about it, point out the real and obvious problem: report all abuse. Report all allegations. Let the police do their job.
-
58
Two witness rule: who cares?
by _Morpheus ini find people railing against the so called “two witness rule” puzzling.
i think its a complete and total non issue.
for those that protest, argue or advocate for change in that rule, why?
-
-
_Morpheus
I find people railing against the so called “two witness rule” puzzling. I think its a complete and total non issue.
For those that protest, argue or advocate for change in that rule, why?
-
31
I yelled at Dub Elders
by kairos ini was driving along through a quiet neighborhood on a saturday morning ( yesterday )and , looky-looky, two dubs.i recognized one of them, complete asshole, exbethelite, can i say his name?it's not important.i rolled up, downed the window and "hey!
"they spun around and i continued, "what are you going to do about all those pedophile lawsuits all over the world?
the two witness rule is wrong and so are you!
-
-
_Morpheus
As always, i hope it made you feel good.
As an aside, what is your problem with so called “two witness rule”? Why do you think that needs to be changed or is wrong?
-
8
Caleb and Sophia app?!?!?
by DATA-DOG inwtf???
i didn’t know this was a thing.
is someone making significant money from this?
-
-
_Morpheus
It wasnt. Look at the author.
-
11
Coffee really is magic
by john.prestor ini'm sitting here at my computer mapping out a hike for this afternoon, drinking a cup of coffee... the cup was a christmas present last year, i'm sure satan is just giddy.. .
-
-
_Morpheus
In its place its great... skiing, snowtubing etc... id much orefer sunny and 80, ridding a motorcycle or fishing. Bah humbg 😂😂
-
11
Coffee really is magic
by john.prestor ini'm sitting here at my computer mapping out a hike for this afternoon, drinking a cup of coffee... the cup was a christmas present last year, i'm sure satan is just giddy.. .
-
-
_Morpheus
Mapping out a hike.... its currently 32f in the nations capitol.
Not that im jealous
-
21
It would be nice if this forum went back to the basics
by nowwhat? innot to offend or impose my opinion.
but simply i would like to see just news and insights from the local congregation to the top organization level of: downsizing, closings, c.s.a.
personal experiences,unscriptural doctrines of the org.and direct commentary of the above.
-
-
_Morpheus
Of the ten topics on the first page only one does not directly related to the topics you mentioned you want to see. Guess which one isnt “on point”?
That aside, it comes and goes. There is a lot if jw talk here. A lot. Some really good, some really petty and ignorant, but in the end people grow and want to discuss other things as well. There is only so much “wt bad, cults bad” discussion to be had in a day.
The ignore button works really well, once you find it.