Posts by _Morpheus

11

When 2 want to visit.

by stillin in

some of the local witnesses have been by, periodically, to check on us and say that they miss us.

i consider that a decent thing to do since they figure that we're going to die any day now from the loving god.

some have been elders, who have to always stay distant so that they don't somehow get contaminated by being too nice to us.

_Morpheus

Yea as stephanie said, two elders getting together is never to nuture friendship. It is always a set up

58

Two witness rule: who cares?

by _Morpheus in

i find people railing against the so called “two witness rule” puzzling.

i think its a complete and total non issue.

for those that protest, argue or advocate for change in that rule, why?

A part of my point here as well is that in complaining about the so called two witness rule, the ex jw community is actually validating the orgs right to have a say in this. There is only a need to change rules when they matter.

They dont. They have zero input, say so or influance, period. I dont care what their rules are. As i have noted a dozen times already, its irrelevant. They can say they need zero witnesses and believe every allegation, it changes nothing. The allegations belong in the hands of law enforcement, period.

58

Two witness rule: who cares?

by _Morpheus in

i find people railing against the so called “two witness rule” puzzling.

i think its a complete and total non issue.

for those that protest, argue or advocate for change in that rule, why?

_Morpheus

Heydog. The WT policy and procedures on child protection don't work in practice in far too many cases

What a simplistic view. No policy will ever work better than the individuals who are implementing it... but of course cofty knows all. He read a book about it :)

see, i can play too!

@pete, the op was in response to something posted on another thread. Its a bit “on the nose” only because its a continuation of another discussion. I did not want to derail or be accused of derailing the other topic.

I remain interested on why people are interested in changing the esoteric rules of a small religion that will not change the end result of child abuse instead of pushing for the bigger and meaningful change of ensuring that all abuse is reported.

Also, everything hey dog said is correct, as far as current policy goes. To address a pointless question from a few pages ago, yes i have sat as an elder on a case like this. Yes we called the police. I made sure of it. I still dont see what this has to do with addressing real change.

58

Two witness rule: who cares?

by _Morpheus in

i find people railing against the so called “two witness rule” puzzling.

i think its a complete and total non issue.

for those that protest, argue or advocate for change in that rule, why?

_Morpheus

Also, what is this constant refrain where some are saying the two witness rule prevents people from calling the police? The two are not related. Again, free your minds.

58

Two witness rule: who cares?

by _Morpheus in

i find people railing against the so called “two witness rule” puzzling.

i think its a complete and total non issue.

for those that protest, argue or advocate for change in that rule, why?

_Morpheus

Your entire post is silly. Of course it doesn't matter for those who have come to the conclusion that the religion is horse shit.
But this is about the people who believe that the organization speak on the behalf of God. Of course that for these people every rule matter.
It matters that the elders encourage them not to call the police. It matter that the two witness rule is seemingly based on the fairy tale book. It matters that Jellohover's name is not dragged to the mud. These things do matter to those who are still in, so they are important.

Who cares that the two witness rule is nonsense to the rest of us. We already know that.

No your entire response is silly!

Ok i feel better now. Aside from that, your response is poorly thought out. My post(s) on this topic are not directed towards those inside. They are directed towards those outside who advocate (waste time) for change in the org, as if a religions rules equate with justice. Free your mind.

Also, i never said the two witness rule was nonsense. I said it was irrelevant.

58

Two witness rule: who cares?

by _Morpheus in

i find people railing against the so called “two witness rule” puzzling.

i think its a complete and total non issue.

for those that protest, argue or advocate for change in that rule, why?

_Morpheus

Have you ever been seated on a body of elders where the '2 witness' rule was invoked? Have you ever been a victim of some sort of sexual abuse or accused of some grievous act for which you could be df'ed?

Hmmm..... what would any of that matter?

58

Two witness rule: who cares?

by _Morpheus in

i find people railing against the so called “two witness rule” puzzling.

i think its a complete and total non issue.

for those that protest, argue or advocate for change in that rule, why?

_Morpheus

@dub- I think it matters, but I think it's become the focus of many and really it's not the answer. They will hold to their "scriptural teaching" on the number of witnesses but regardless of what they do internally there needs to be external involvement as well. Nobody is going to change their internal policies but external forces can hold them accountable and enact mandatory reporting with penalties for failure to do so.

i understand that some may feel im playing devils advocate but largely what i quoted from you is my point. Change the rule or not, it doesnt fix whats wrong and all the focus on the religious rule (two witnesses) is irrelevant to law enforcement and real justice.

Frankly in most cases it's the parent(s) fault for not reporting an incident to the police. As a parent if my child told me she was molested by brother ___ I would simultaneously call the elders and police. It would be pretty much a non issue if these brain washed brain dead parents had done this. I know it sounds simple but that's why I don't know why it's more convoluted and complicated than it has to be.

Again, i agree. The tragedy is that most dubs wouldnt call the police even if brother or sister blank was df’d for child abuse because they would ‘leave it in the desert gods hands’ after the person was df’d. They would feel real justice would come at the big A.

Report it all. They are not law enforcement. They are not judges. They are just a religion.

58

Two witness rule: who cares?

by _Morpheus in

i find people railing against the so called “two witness rule” puzzling.

i think its a complete and total non issue.

for those that protest, argue or advocate for change in that rule, why?

_Morpheus

The ‘two witness rule’ and the resistance to reporting credible allegations to the authorities go hand-in-hand.

i disagree. In no way do i want jw elders deciding if an allegation is “credible”. Its not their job and they are not qualified to decide. Report. It. All.

Currently the organisations starts from a position of protecting its reputation at all costs — don’t bring reproach on Jehovah’s name. When a victim reports abuse, the assumption is that without collaboration nothing can or should be done. There will be no further investigation by the elders and they definitely will not be taking it outside the organisation. The victim and/or victim’s parents will be left in no doubt that they are expected to ‘leave it in Jehovah’s hands’.

your still emphasizing the religion and its roll. It doesn't matter. Its just a religion. Leave law enforcement to law enforcement and let the religion do whatever it does. Never shall the two meet.

What needs to change first is attitude. Correct procedure will follow from that.

and the correct attitude is report crimes to law enforcement. I give zero damns what the religion does or does not do with its members. It just doesnt matter.

The reputation of the organisation needs to take second place to child welfare.

Thats my point.

If that was the case then there would be an eagerness to get to the truth of any report of abuse.

The “truth” by jw standards is irrelevant. It doesnt count for anything. Even if someone is df’d that is no form of justice. So the fu**k what. It doesnt protect any one else and it doesnt punish wrong doers.

That would involve reporting it to the authorities — or supporting the victim and/or parents to do so — and investigating the matter internally to the extent that can be done without prejudicing an official investigation.

I have no idea why you care if an internal jw investigation is done with or without prejudicing. Who. Cares.

Truth be known- Jehovah's Witnesses could end the practice and belief of the "Two Witness Rule" and still stick to their guns on not reporting to the police. All the Two Witness Rule does is prevent pedophiles who are Witnesses from being disfellowshipped.

exactly. Focus on the real problem and the real solution. Dont discourage or dissuade members from reporting abuse as was very prevalent in years gone by. Let all abuse be reported, encourage all abuse to be reported, and let it get sorted it properly. What the organization of jw’s does internally be damned. Its irrelevant to law enforcemnt or real life.

58

Two witness rule: who cares?

by _Morpheus in

i find people railing against the so called “two witness rule” puzzling.

i think its a complete and total non issue.

for those that protest, argue or advocate for change in that rule, why?

_Morpheus

No humor implied or offered. Pedophilia is never funny. Its a serious question for serious discussion. Here is my point:

two witnesses, no witnesses who cares. Its the half assed rule of a half assed religions internal star chamber procedings. Its irrelevant.

REPORT THE ACCUSATION TO POLICE.

Why does anyone give a single damn if three church officials think one of their congregants is guilty of child abuse? So what? What if there are two witnesses and they pronounce him guilty. Does that result administer anything like justice??? They could find him or guilty of child abuse and still not df him or her. Even if they do df the offender, so what? Is that any source of justice?

my point is, obsessing over what the cult wants to accept as evidence of a crime is pointless and a waste of time. The end result, even if they changed their rule, is still nothing. Absolutely nothing.

if you want to protest something or demand a REAL change with REAL effect, demand that ALL allegations be reported to the authorities. Period.

An obvious side effect of that is that if real investigators find a real crime and convict said offender, the congregation will be obligated to take action.

So instead of pointless signs demanding some esoteric rule be modified or yelling out side some witness convention about it, point out the real and obvious problem: report all abuse. Report all allegations. Let the police do their job.

58

Two witness rule: who cares?

by _Morpheus in

i find people railing against the so called “two witness rule” puzzling.

i think its a complete and total non issue.

for those that protest, argue or advocate for change in that rule, why?

_Morpheus

I find people railing against the so called “two witness rule” puzzling. I think its a complete and total non issue.

For those that protest, argue or advocate for change in that rule, why?