Posts by _Morpheus

21

Are Jehovah’s Witnesses a Cult?

by Tahoe in

jw
friends

i realize this is an older posting on jw.org, but i’d come across it again after reading holden’s thread.

quoted below, so no need to visit the website.. _______________________________________________________.

no, jehovah’s witnesses are not a cult.

_Morpheus

I tend to agree with phizzy. “Cult” may not be the right term but high control group or some shade thereof has been earned, for sure and for certain.

I'd bet that most jdubs would view Scientology as a cult. There have been so many instances of Leah and Mike (and many others) explaining things, where I've thought, "Damn, merely substitute jdubs for Scientologists and it's bang on the same mind control." They're so alike in many different ways.

I had a similar experiance. When reading steve hassins book about his time in the moonies, many many times i substituted ‘jw’s’ for moonies and it was identical.

Maybe cult is right word....

38

Child sexual abuse suspect arrested in T.O.

by Tahoe in

jw
friends

https://www.vcstar.com/story/news/2018/12/13/child-sexual-abuse-suspect-arrested-t-o/2305199002/ .

a 69-year-old thousand oaks man facing multiple sexual abuse charges by the ventura county district attorney’s office was arrested last week, authorities said.. steven skyler abbott was arrested dec. 6 after months of investigation into the reported sexual abuse of two thousand oaks girls, according to the ventura county sheriff’s office.

in november, the ventura county district attorney’s office filed multiple felony sexual abuse charges against abbott, including two counts of continuous sexual abuse, one count of lewd acts upon a child and one count of forcible lewd acts upon a child.. he is also facing multiple felony enhancements and special allegations related to his charges.. the investigation began in september, when the sheriff’s agency received a report of suspected child crimes.. a 16-year-old victim alleged that she was sexually abused by abbott when she was between the ages of 5 and 11, sheriff’s officials said.. sexual assault unit detectives subsequently identified a second, 24-year-old victim who reported that abbott had abused her when she was between the ages of 3 and 7, authorities said.. the sheriff’s agency said the victims and their families had come into contact with abbott through the kingdom hall of jehovah’s witnesses in newbury park.. investigators submitted their findings to prosecutors, who filed felony sexual abuse charges against abbot on nov. 16, officials said.. on nov. 28, an arrest warrant was issued for abbott.. the suspect was eventually arrested at his home on dec. 6 and booked into ventura county jail.

_Morpheus

Even you know why your argument fails. You started your example with an admission. It in no way relates to the circumstances being discussed. Let me refresh your failing memory. You said:

If two unrelated people admit to staying unchaperoned in the same house overnight, with no exceptional circumstances, they are liable to be disfellowshipped for fornication.

See, you started with an admission. Withesses not needed. I laid out many scenarios, from the branch, that explain many circumstances under which even two witnesses are not admissible and the circumstantial evidance isnt taken as fornication.

Its not that there isnt a point to be made but the reality is, it isnt being made. Draw the analogy. What circumstantial evidence SHOULD lead one to believe that an act of pedophilia has been committed? A child spends the night at a house with somone who isnt a relative? Can you not see how that would be HUGELY problematic? Lets extend it... a simple accusation? The accusation alone isnt enough for fornication nor is it enough for pedophilia. Where do you want the line? Ive been clear already. For me the line and the answer is, was and will always be: call. The. Police.

The real issue is that sex between consenting adults is viewed as a private matter and nobody cares unless they being cheated on where as pedophilia is a sick twisted crime that most civilized people want to see stamped out and the perpetrators executed. Its creates intense emotions and people generally want to run with any accusation as completely factual. Thats also not practical or logical for a religion, with no right to enforce law, no training to investigate and no mandiate to be involved in the first place.

I am sorry that fact based logic makes it difficult for you to participate here. Im sure there are self help books that can provide tools for coping.

If all this thread is about is to shout into the echo chamber and have like voices agree, congratulations. If this thread is about trying to construct an argument and drawn a comparison between their dealings on adultry and their dealings on pedophilia for dispassionate observers, its been ineffective.

38

Child sexual abuse suspect arrested in T.O.

by Tahoe in

jw
friends

https://www.vcstar.com/story/news/2018/12/13/child-sexual-abuse-suspect-arrested-t-o/2305199002/ .

a 69-year-old thousand oaks man facing multiple sexual abuse charges by the ventura county district attorney’s office was arrested last week, authorities said.. steven skyler abbott was arrested dec. 6 after months of investigation into the reported sexual abuse of two thousand oaks girls, according to the ventura county sheriff’s office.

in november, the ventura county district attorney’s office filed multiple felony sexual abuse charges against abbott, including two counts of continuous sexual abuse, one count of lewd acts upon a child and one count of forcible lewd acts upon a child.. he is also facing multiple felony enhancements and special allegations related to his charges.. the investigation began in september, when the sheriff’s agency received a report of suspected child crimes.. a 16-year-old victim alleged that she was sexually abused by abbott when she was between the ages of 5 and 11, sheriff’s officials said.. sexual assault unit detectives subsequently identified a second, 24-year-old victim who reported that abbott had abused her when she was between the ages of 3 and 7, authorities said.. the sheriff’s agency said the victims and their families had come into contact with abbott through the kingdom hall of jehovah’s witnesses in newbury park.. investigators submitted their findings to prosecutors, who filed felony sexual abuse charges against abbot on nov. 16, officials said.. on nov. 28, an arrest warrant was issued for abbott.. the suspect was eventually arrested at his home on dec. 6 and booked into ventura county jail.

_Morpheus

I disagree. If two unrelated people admit to staying unchaperoned in the same house overnight, with no exceptional circumstances, they are liable to be disfellowshipped for fornication.

I disagree. Your scenario starts with an admission. No witnesses are needed or sought. The comparison would be a pedo admitting to being a pedo. Also i didnt describe “exceptional” circumstances. I used specific examples the branch used that are not in the least uncommon which is why the branch used them. But by all means keep practicing your cantankerous old man routine. Im sure it will serve you in good stead as you progress into your twilight years :)

38

Child sexual abuse suspect arrested in T.O.

by Tahoe in

jw
friends

https://www.vcstar.com/story/news/2018/12/13/child-sexual-abuse-suspect-arrested-t-o/2305199002/ .

a 69-year-old thousand oaks man facing multiple sexual abuse charges by the ventura county district attorney’s office was arrested last week, authorities said.. steven skyler abbott was arrested dec. 6 after months of investigation into the reported sexual abuse of two thousand oaks girls, according to the ventura county sheriff’s office.

in november, the ventura county district attorney’s office filed multiple felony sexual abuse charges against abbott, including two counts of continuous sexual abuse, one count of lewd acts upon a child and one count of forcible lewd acts upon a child.. he is also facing multiple felony enhancements and special allegations related to his charges.. the investigation began in september, when the sheriff’s agency received a report of suspected child crimes.. a 16-year-old victim alleged that she was sexually abused by abbott when she was between the ages of 5 and 11, sheriff’s officials said.. sexual assault unit detectives subsequently identified a second, 24-year-old victim who reported that abbott had abused her when she was between the ages of 3 and 7, authorities said.. the sheriff’s agency said the victims and their families had come into contact with abbott through the kingdom hall of jehovah’s witnesses in newbury park.. investigators submitted their findings to prosecutors, who filed felony sexual abuse charges against abbot on nov. 16, officials said.. on nov. 28, an arrest warrant was issued for abbott.. the suspect was eventually arrested at his home on dec. 6 and booked into ventura county jail.

_Morpheus

Also, if found guilty, the subject of the OP should be gassed, fried, and his ashes shot into space so as not to contaminate our planet any farther.

38

Child sexual abuse suspect arrested in T.O.

by Tahoe in

jw
friends

https://www.vcstar.com/story/news/2018/12/13/child-sexual-abuse-suspect-arrested-t-o/2305199002/ .

a 69-year-old thousand oaks man facing multiple sexual abuse charges by the ventura county district attorney’s office was arrested last week, authorities said.. steven skyler abbott was arrested dec. 6 after months of investigation into the reported sexual abuse of two thousand oaks girls, according to the ventura county sheriff’s office.

in november, the ventura county district attorney’s office filed multiple felony sexual abuse charges against abbott, including two counts of continuous sexual abuse, one count of lewd acts upon a child and one count of forcible lewd acts upon a child.. he is also facing multiple felony enhancements and special allegations related to his charges.. the investigation began in september, when the sheriff’s agency received a report of suspected child crimes.. a 16-year-old victim alleged that she was sexually abused by abbott when she was between the ages of 5 and 11, sheriff’s officials said.. sexual assault unit detectives subsequently identified a second, 24-year-old victim who reported that abbott had abused her when she was between the ages of 3 and 7, authorities said.. the sheriff’s agency said the victims and their families had come into contact with abbott through the kingdom hall of jehovah’s witnesses in newbury park.. investigators submitted their findings to prosecutors, who filed felony sexual abuse charges against abbot on nov. 16, officials said.. on nov. 28, an arrest warrant was issued for abbott.. the suspect was eventually arrested at his home on dec. 6 and booked into ventura county jail.

_Morpheus

If two JW adults spend several hours under the same roof, but deny anything improper occurred, you can assume that fornication must have occurred. As such, hit them with both barrels. Two-witness rule not required here.

False, on several levels. There must be two witnesses to validate that they spent the night under the same roof. Thats what led to the “stake out” mentality of years gone by. Also it is not automatically assumed that fornication or adultery took place. There are lots of specified situations where it is assumed nothing took place. Room renting. Care givers. Weird scenarios about party's and public transportation being closed down. All these have been covered in BOE meetings and letter to the BOE.

My point is, your assertion their rules are not consistent isnt well made.

70

The Reasons for Cart Witnessing

by Simon in

whatever we think of it, you have to admit that it's quite "genius".. the door to door ministry as done in western developed countries where the jw quirky religion has probably reached their saturation level was a complete and utter waste of time in terms of the effort expended to recruit people.. at the same time, it was rarely something that anyone enjoyed which led to people being labelled as inactive, being pressured to doing more and maybe ultimately deciding jwism wasn't for them and leaving.. there was also the issue that many jws are actually pretty bad at knowing and articulating their beliefs so were pretty incapable of getting any meaningful message across.. they solved all this with the cart witnessing.

the real point isn't to recruit, it's to make life easier for jws.

now they can stand and chat with their friend, have a coffee, not talk to anyone or make eye contact and still act as a walking billboard for jw.org.

_Morpheus

I believe that cart witnessing is being forced on them by the authorities - door knocking is invasive/annoying but cart witnessing in a public space is a public service and thus enables watchtower to get charity money.
I'm grasping at straws a little but I wouldn't at all be surprised if I'm close to the truth ...

Lol yep your grasping on that one uni.

11

When 2 want to visit.

by stillin in

some of the local witnesses have been by, periodically, to check on us and say that they miss us.

i consider that a decent thing to do since they figure that we're going to die any day now from the loving god.

some have been elders, who have to always stay distant so that they don't somehow get contaminated by being too nice to us.

_Morpheus

Yea as stephanie said, two elders getting together is never to nuture friendship. It is always a set up

58

Two witness rule: who cares?

by _Morpheus in

i find people railing against the so called “two witness rule” puzzling.

i think its a complete and total non issue.

for those that protest, argue or advocate for change in that rule, why?

_Morpheus

A part of my point here as well is that in complaining about the so called two witness rule, the ex jw community is actually validating the orgs right to have a say in this. There is only a need to change rules when they matter.

They dont. They have zero input, say so or influance, period. I dont care what their rules are. As i have noted a dozen times already, its irrelevant. They can say they need zero witnesses and believe every allegation, it changes nothing. The allegations belong in the hands of law enforcement, period.

58

Two witness rule: who cares?

by _Morpheus in

i find people railing against the so called “two witness rule” puzzling.

i think its a complete and total non issue.

for those that protest, argue or advocate for change in that rule, why?

_Morpheus

Heydog. The WT policy and procedures on child protection don't work in practice in far too many cases

What a simplistic view. No policy will ever work better than the individuals who are implementing it... but of course cofty knows all. He read a book about it :)

see, i can play too!

@pete, the op was in response to something posted on another thread. Its a bit “on the nose” only because its a continuation of another discussion. I did not want to derail or be accused of derailing the other topic.

I remain interested on why people are interested in changing the esoteric rules of a small religion that will not change the end result of child abuse instead of pushing for the bigger and meaningful change of ensuring that all abuse is reported.

Also, everything hey dog said is correct, as far as current policy goes. To address a pointless question from a few pages ago, yes i have sat as an elder on a case like this. Yes we called the police. I made sure of it. I still dont see what this has to do with addressing real change.

58

Two witness rule: who cares?

by _Morpheus in

i find people railing against the so called “two witness rule” puzzling.

i think its a complete and total non issue.

for those that protest, argue or advocate for change in that rule, why?

_Morpheus

Also, what is this constant refrain where some are saying the two witness rule prevents people from calling the police? The two are not related. Again, free your minds.