I'm good, badboy! How about yourself?
AlanF
Posts by AlanF
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19DID NOAH TAKE PLANTS ONBOARD ARK?
by badboy in.
i have heard that certain types of rice can only survive about 3 weeks under water, it occured to me that perhaps noah would have taken aboard,what do you think?.
what does wt think????
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47
A Fair View of Fred Franz' Translation Abilities
by IW ini thought these comments on channel c were fair views of fred franz' translation, not to mention a little surprising.
a breath of fresh air.
http://www.channelc.org/cgi-bin/eboard30/index2.cgi?frames=no&board=main&mode=current&message=21782.
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AlanF
Fred Franz was THE NWT translator. This was confirmed on this board some years ago by the poster maximus, who actually worked on the NWT as a proofreader. He observed that Franz took great pains to conceal his work from anyone not directly approved to know, such as the others on the NWT committee and a few other highly trusted people. Not even the proofreaders were supposed to know. But occasionally someone slipped up, and so all of the proofreaders knew who was doing what. The other NWT committee members did administration tasks and general busywork, such as cross-referencing.
That Franz could read Hebrew was confirmed for me by Ray Franz, who told me some years ago that on an oversees trip they visited some museum. Fred was intently looking at some ancient Hebrew inscription, and Ray observed that he was actually reading it.
People who argue that Franz didn't know Greek or Hebrew just don't know what they're talking about. Someone in the bowels of Bethel certainly knew enough to produce a translation, because the NWT didn't just appear out of thin air. Franz was obviously self-taught in Hebrew, and I think that was a real limitation.
Nevertheless, I think that the NWT is a very good literal -- sometimes too literal -- translation as long as JW doctrine doesn't get in the way. In many cases I've compared a NWT rendering with those from a large number of other Bibles, along with lexicons, interlinears and commentaries, and found that the NWT often comes out as accurate or better than others. Of course, when doctrine gets in the way, the NWT is often flat out dishonest. Overall, I completely agree with moggy lover's final assessment: "It is this dishonesty, this crass overbearing arrogance that should rightfully discourage any endorsement of the NWT and it main architect, Fred Franz."
Excellent posts, Narkissos and moggy lover!
AlanF
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54
Fact Jews Returned In 538 BC Kills Off Watchtower Chronology
by AlanF inthe watchtower society's 1914 chronology hinges on a dicey chain of claims.
if any of these claims is wrong, then the chain is broken and watchtower chronology collapses.
along with it goes the entire belief structure built on it, including most importantly the claim of the leaders of jehovah's witnesses to have been specially appointed in 1919 by god over "all christ's belongings" on earth.
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AlanF
scholar pretendus braindeadus completus said:
: Your dogmatic and grandiose opinion that 538 is the only date for the Return
What do you call the Society's dogmatic and grandiose opinion that 537 is the only date for the Return? Do you not see your hypocrisy?
You know perfectly well that it's based on pure speculation and that they've never presented any facts to support the speculation. My conclusion is based on facts taken from the Bible and Josephus. Therefore it is an opinion only to the extent that the facts I've presented are wrong. You have yet to deal with even one of those facts. You're nothing but a blusterer, someone whose lips constantly flap in the wind.
: does not agree with the rather modest claims about 538 presented by Jonsson by means of a footnote which is based on only two scholarly sources.
What did I say about that in the above posts, you moron?
: These scholars do not share your dogmatism about this matter. In fact, scholars scholars are not concerned about the precise date for the Return but merely focus on year of Cyrus' Decree which is widely held to be 538 with the Return following that.
I am unconcerned about whether some scholars are dogmatic about the matter. The above facts speak for themselves, and are incontrovertible. If you don't like those facts, then run them by some scholars of your choice and let's see what they say. Of course, you'll never do that, any more than you've ever run anything contradicting Watchtower claims by any scholars.
: Have you presented your new theory about hte matter with all of your 'startling evidence' for the approval of your guru Jonsson yet?
What did I say about that in the above posts, you moron?
: I challenge you present definite scholarly opinion that supports 538 and not 537 for the Return and further if you search 537 by means of google you will notice that there is a general acceptance for 537 rather 538. So much for your childish nonsense.
Not until you give full source references to at least two modern scholars who support the 537 date, along with their reasoning; you provide URL links to the people you claim support 537, along with their reasoning; and most important of all, you show that you understand all such material you come up with by collating it into a consistent and coherent whole, and finally, as I have repeatedly stated, do the following:
If you disagree with any of the above facts, prove your case by making point-by-point refutations of my arguments. To prove that you know what you're talking about, provide your own detailed chronological tabulation like I have done above.
If you cannot manage to to do all of the above, then you have simply confirmed -- as if any more confirmation were necessary -- that you have no facts at your command and you do not understand this material.
You've already demonstrated complete incompetence even in simple matters like relating the Julian, Gregorian, Jewish and Babylonian calendars to one another. You've claimed that Cyrus' first year began some time in either 538 or 537 B.C., even though the Society accepts that it began in Nisan 538. You even claimed that the year before 537 was 537!
You're a drowning man Neil. You just don't know it yet.
AlanF
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AlanF
Of course what I posted is a spoof. That's why I used a wierd date for the 'WT article'.
It has a serious intent, though, because I think it illustrates how easily JW leaders could manipulate their braindead followers into actually killing critics.
AlanF
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20
Main reason why Jaracz and company won't budge
by What-A-Coincidence inget a free haircut?
pay no rent?
travel for free?
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AlanF
Good insights, as usual, metatron.
James Woods said:
: Does anybody actually believe that Jaracz and his boys personally go door to door and sell the magazines like they expect the R & F to do?
Actually, I have it on good authority that Jaracz is among the few JW leaders who actually does this. But Jaracz is also among the few JW leaders who is insane enough to actually believe his own bullcrap.
AuldSoul said:
: But financially, this arrangement would be incredibly lucrative for those involved "off-paper" in the legally defensible skimming of donated funds.
Of course, and it goes without saying that the beneficiaries of such an arrangement will in turn give "the green handshake" to the appropriate JW leaders.
Many don't know that this "green handshake" can be quite lucrative for WTS officials. I'm morally certain that many GB members have become what most of us would consider wealthy as a result. Take Circuit Overseers as the lowest level example. I have it on good authority that many of these guys who serve relatively well-off areas in the U.S. receive on the order of $500 a week in cash donations from local JWs. This is tax free, because accepting such donations is a violation of the "vow of poverty" they all have to take to ensure that the Society doesn't get hit with tax bills. So that's like $25,000 a year free and clear. Now consider that these guys have almost no living expenses that normal people have -- no rent or house payments, no car payments, no utilities, the Society pays for their health insurance, much of their food is provided by local JWs, etc. -- and you can see that they can bank a lot more money than most U.S. citizens can.
AlanF
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16
607 website - part 1
by Jeffro inadherents of jw dogma are boastful of a new website (http://www.jehovahsjudgment.co.uk/607) which they claim has "irrefutable" proof for their 607 doctrine.
it is full of problems, and i will indicate these section by section, as time permits.. why is 607bce an important date to jehovah's witnesses.
the introduction paints jws as the persecuted underdog.
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AlanF
Excellent job, Jeffro! Keep it coming.
AlanF
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19
DID NOAH TAKE PLANTS ONBOARD ARK?
by badboy in.
i have heard that certain types of rice can only survive about 3 weeks under water, it occured to me that perhaps noah would have taken aboard,what do you think?.
what does wt think????
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AlanF
Hey, this is just a minor thing compared to all the other miracles it would have taken to have everthing survive such mythical Flood.
AlanF
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AlanF
From the July 8, 2007 Watchtower article "Righteous Requirements":
. . . . . .
The kingdom of God is the highest government anyone can serve. To be acceptable all kingdom service must find its motive in love for Jehovah. All desiring to be pleasing to God must always keep this foremost in mind. A call to action is now going forth to Jehovah's people throughout the earth. It is a righteous call, and action is a righteous requirement. This is not a new call to action but a revival of one Jehovah's people obeyed in the days of Israel.
Jehovah is our great God and Christ Jesus is his anointed King. In 1918 the King came to his temple class which is composed of the dedicated, spirit-begotten and anointed members of his body. He has judged them clean and commissioned them to act as his "faithful and discreet slave".--Matt. 25:45-47.
The King has placed this slave over his earthly household and has given him charge over all his goods with specific instructions to bring forth "food in due season" for the household of faith. The servant was also anointed "to tell good news to the meek; ... to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to those taken captive and the wide opening of the eyes even to the prisoners; to proclaim the year of good will on the part of Jehovah and the day of vengeance on the part of our God; to comfort all the mourning ones".--Isa. 61:1-3.
The Scriptures and the facts clearly establish that the commission given to the "faithful slave" is grounded in the Word of Jehovah. There is only one organization on earth today fulfilling these righteous requirements -- The Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses under the direction of its Governing Body. Jehovah through the Governing Body is now proclaiming his day of vengeance.
This organization was authorized by Jehovah to bring forth things new and old for the household of faith and do his work. Therefore it is fully qualified and duly authorized to issue a "call to action" to all who claim to be on Jehovah's side in these final days to busy themselves in doing the work of Jehovah.
This "call to action" sent out by Jehovah through the Society is based on the fulfilled prophecies of his Word clearly revealed to those who have the mind of Jehovah, in such Watchtower articles as "What It Takes to Keep Separate from the World" in the June 15, 1980 issue, "Godly Conduct Toward Others" and "Disfellowshiping -- How To View It" in the September 15, 1981 issue, "Christ Hated Lawlessness -- Do You?" in the July 15, 1992 issue, "At Which Table Are You Feeding?" in the July 1, 1994 issue, and "Jehovah's Organization Under Demon Attack" in the September 1, 2002 issue.
These thrilling prophecies were called to our attention during the past year and clearly reveal Jehovah's requirements for those who are under the leadership of his King. These are, therefore, right and righteous requirements for every dedicated servant of Jehovah. As the above mentioned articles show, Jehovah prophesied that his servants would "hate those who are intensely hating you, O Jehovah," and would feel "a loathing for those revolting against you."
How does Jehovah issue the call to his people? Does it come in the form of a harsh ultimatum: You do thus and so, or else--? No! Such ultimatums are not necessary. Jehovah never adopts that attitude toward his servants. Instead, he foretold that his servants would offer themselves willingly. (Psalm 110:3). His anointed King prophesied "whoever wants to save his soul will lose it; but whoever loses his soul for my sake will find it."
This call is therefore for those who love Jehovah and rejoice in his righteous requirements and who wish to live in and accept the responsibilities of his government. Such show their faith and faithfulness by their response to the call to action. When this class sees the issue and hears the call, that is all that is necessary. Jesus says of them, `For they know the good shepherd's voice, and a stranger will they not follow.' (John 10:4,5) Jehovah always issues his call to action in an organized, systematic manner. This is emphasized throughout the Bible, from the opening chapters of Genesis to the concluding chapters of Revelation. Let us consider two by way of illustration.
In Genesis 1:26 Jehovah issued a "call to action" to his Son, the Logos, and such other agencies as were required for the creation of man, in these words: "And God went on to say: `Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness.' " This is all there was to it. Jehovah expressed his will. That expressed will became "organization instructions" to the Logos. It was at that time that "the morning stars joyfully cried out together, and all the sons of God began shouting in applause". (Job 38:7) Another splendid illustration of Jehovah's expressing his will, which expressed will became "organization instructions" to Jesus and all other servants of Jehovah participating in the great drama, is the 110th Psalm, particularly the first three verses: "The utterance of Jehovah to my Lord is: `Sit at my right hand until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet. The rod of your strength Jehovah will send out of Zion, saying: "Go subduing in the midst of your enemies." Your people will offer themselves willingly on the day of your military force. In the splendors of holiness, from the womb of the dawn, you have your company of young men just like dewdrops.'"
Every organization requires specific instructions for those who serve in it. In the past Jehovah issued his "organization instructions" to his servants through his central agency or channel. Each one joyfully accepted his part and faithfully carried it out.
Now, the apostle says, Jehovah speaks to us through his Son. (Heb. 1:1, 2) The Son has returned as King; he has come to his temple. He has appointed his "faithful and discreet slave", who is his visible representative, and says to those who are privileged to represent him upon the earth, "This good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations" (Matthew 24:14); and, "Do I not hate those who are intensely hating you, O Jehovah, and do I not feel a loathing for those revolting against you? With a complete hatred I do hate them. They have become to me real enemies."
These expressions of God's will by his King and through his established agency constitute his law or rule of action for the "faithful and discreet slave" and for their companions today. Jehovah breaks down our organization instructions further and makes them more practicable by further instructing us through his Word. He says, "In case your brother ... should try to allure you ... you must not accede to his wish or listen to him, nor should your eye feel sorry for him, nor must you feel compassion, nor cover him protectively; but you should kill him without fail. Your hand first of all should come upon him to put him to death, and the hand of all the people afterward. And you must stone him with stones, and he must die, because he has sought to turn you away from Jehovah your God... Then all Israel will hear and become afraid, and they will not do anything like this bad thing again in your midst."
Apostates are lawless ones and these always try to lure Jehovah's faithful ones to "serve other gods." Our obligation to hate lawlessness applies to all activity by apostates. Our attitude toward apostates should be that of David, who declared: "Do I not hate those who are intensely hating you, O Jehovah, and do I not feel a loathing for those revolting against you? With a complete hatred I do hate them. They have become to me real enemies."
These directions come to us from Jehovah through his established agency directing what is required of us; and, for those who really love Jehovah and are guided by his counsel, that is a reasonable requirement. It is for our good that these requirements are made; for thereby we are enabled to prove our integrity and magnify Jehovah's name.
The time has come when each one must bear his own burden fully before Jehovah. With the provisions that he has now made in supplying us with spiritual counsel and instructions as to our obligation towards apostates, there is absolutely no excuse for anyone, man or woman, to claim to be unable to accept this assignment and assume full responsibility for it. Those who really love Jehovah and are fighters for the New World will not try to excuse themselves on any ground, but will hear Jehovah's word when he says, Let us do thus and so, and always keep in mind the us includes Christ, who will be with us in every undertaking.--Matthew 18:20.
Jehovah through his "faithful and discreet slave" now states to us, "Let us seek out apostates in our territory and deal scripturally with them." That becomes our organization instructions and has the same binding force on us that his statement to the Logos had when he said, "Let us make man in our image." It is our duty to accept this instruction and obey it. But someone will say, "The conditions are different. In the case of the Logos, he could accomplish what Jehovah commanded him to do; but when it comes to seeking out apostates, that is out of all reason. We have never sought out apostates before, and besides, Jehovah never authorized us to kill other humans. It just can't be done." We have all heard that argument before. And if it were true it would look bad indeed, and would imply that Jehovah was asking us to do something that is impossible for us to accomplish. The children of Israel walked around Jericho seven times the last day. Phinehas was empowered to clear out what was bad from Israel's midst (Numbers 25:6-8). As loyal servants of Jehovah, so will his holy spirit empower us today!
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156
Thirdwitness -- An Agent of the Governing Body?
by AlanF inthirdwitness -- an agent of the governing body?
this evening i was talking with an old friend about recent postings on this forum by jw defenders.
we concluded that something unusual is going on.
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AlanF
I tend to agree with you, Effe, to an extent. However, thirdwitness' summary of his experience on this board was a total misrepresentation of the facts, as you well know.I believe that Ozziepost removed thirdwitness' latest cut & pastes for the simple reason that he continued to post new ones without properly dealing with responses to the old ones. Almost all boards restrict such inundations. As for restricting posting privileges in any other way, I have no comment except that I hope he is now able to post as much as he wants except for new cut & pastes.
As for thirdwitness' claim that regular posters on this board regularly do cut & pastes of their own material, that's another of his lies. For example, on the website "Research on the Watchtower" ( http://corior.blogspot.com/ ), there are thousands of pages of essays by myself and others. I never cut & paste from there, although I post links along with a line of explanatory information. Nor am I aware of any others who do. Rather, most posts are either new material, or are in some way original in the sense that the poster has done a good bit of work in researching the material from various sources and putting it into his or her own words.
So thirdwitness is telling his usual lies to his usual audience of wide eyed believers. If they believe him without checking up on him, they deserve what they get. The facts are here on this board for all to see.
AlanF
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54
Fact Jews Returned In 538 BC Kills Off Watchtower Chronology
by AlanF inthe watchtower society's 1914 chronology hinges on a dicey chain of claims.
if any of these claims is wrong, then the chain is broken and watchtower chronology collapses.
along with it goes the entire belief structure built on it, including most importantly the claim of the leaders of jehovah's witnesses to have been specially appointed in 1919 by god over "all christ's belongings" on earth.
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AlanF
scholar pretendus stupidus maximus moaned:
: If you say that Carl Jonsson believes that 538 BCE is the only possible date for the Return then prove it for Jonsson nowhere in his GTR has stated this matter as dogmatically as you have. Jonsson does not share your dogmatic opinion and niether do modern scholars.
First, as I explained to you, Jonsson's opinions are irrelevant to the facts I've presented.
Second, Jonsson most certainly does believe that the Jews returned in 538 B.C. He explicitly states that in GTR4. You have the reference. No one has to be "dogmatic" about anything in order to believe it -- they simply have to lay out their reasons. Jonsson has done that.
As for modern scholars, I've read several opinions and they all agree. On the other hand, no modern scholars I'm aware of think the Jews returned in 537. Nor are you aware of any.
: I challenge you to provide confirmation of your special little theory by other scholars or other reference works
I need no other confirmation. I have laid out the facts. You don't like it. Tough shit.
Your silly excuses show you're getting desperate in the face of zero facts that support your claim, and overwhelming facts in the Bible and Josephus that disprove it.
: because all that you have is a personal opinion or preference which is meaningless.
Bullshit. I have facts. I've laid them out for all to see. The facts speak for themselves and are incontrovertible.
If you disagree with the facts, then point out which ones and why.
The fact is, scholar pretendus brainus minimus, you have no information whatsoever that contravenes the facts. Thus, you try to "argue by authority", but you muck even this up because all you can manage to say is that you don't think any modern authorities agree with me -- which is a lie. But since you have no authorities to back up your claim, all you can do is foam at the mouth, railing about your non-existent scholars you wish would magically appear.
: There would be some scholars who argue for 538 and there would also be others who prefer 537 BCE so where does this leave your little pet theory.
You go right ahead and produce the works and names of modern scholars who prefer 537, along with their reasoning. Then we can go further.
At this point, since you can produce no such scholars, you might as well be claiming that some scholars believe that the earth is flat.
AlanF