Posts by AlanF

597

Great news. The WTS did not commit spiritual prostitution with UN.

by thirdwitness in

http://www.jehovahsjudgment.co.uk/watchtower-un-ngo/

AlanF

Thirdwitness lied:

: AlanF, Your reasoning was blown out of the water just before you posted it.

Nonsense.

That your statement is bullshit is easily proved: You cannot honestly answer the following challenge:

When the Watchtower Society agreed to all of the requirements necessary to obtain Associated NGO status in 1992, did it agree to the following basic criterion?

"The NGO must support and respect the principles of the Charter of the UN and have a clear mission statement with those principles."

Your refusal to answer will indicate that your is answer is Yes. All else follows.

AlanF

597

Great news. The WTS did not commit spiritual prostitution with UN.

by thirdwitness in

http://www.jehovahsjudgment.co.uk/watchtower-un-ngo/

In light of my above post that proves that the Watchtower Society, by voluntarily accepting Associated NGO status, agreed to support and respect the U.N. Charter -- with no exceptions, let's review one of thirdwitness' attempts to confuse himself and his readers. At thirdwitness' suggestion I've taken the liberty of substituting "Oleg" for "Greg" where appropriate in his original post.

: A conversation in 2001 with Mr. Oleg Dzioubinski, an information officer at the DPI.

: When asked: Is the Watchtower a NGO

: Oleg answered: Yes

Obviously, what Oleg had in mind depends on exactly when in 2001 this conversation took place. If after the Watchtower Society asked to be disassociated from the DPI, he must have had in mind the generic definition of "NGO". If before the Society's disassociation, he must have assumed that his questioner used "NGO" as shorthand for "Associated NGO" and answered accordingly.

: When asked: What do you have to show to be an NGO

This question only makes sense if the questioner had in mind "Associated NGO", since generic NGOs don't have to do anything at all except not be a government.

: Oleg: A variety of things including non-profit status and financial statements plus information showing you will promote and adhere to what the UN does.

Note that Oleg here is clear on promoting and respecting the U.N. charter.

: When asked: What is an NGO and how does it relate to the UN

: Oleg: NGOs have no status and are not part of the UN. They get information such as pamphlets that promote the UN through the DPI. Then using the pamphlets, they are then suppose to inform people what the UN is doing through various ways such as magazines.

Oleg is correct. However, it's obvious that when he said that NGOs have no status and are not part of the U.N., all he means is the obvious: they have no governmental status and thus cannot be part of the U.N. He said nothing about being formally associated with the U.N., which is a completely different issue.

: Question: Some friends of mine are concerned over the Watchtower not saying nice things about the UN. Is this a problem?

: Oleg: You can criticize the UN. But, we would take offence if they were using the UN name to raise money or they were saying they were a UN organization when they really are not.

Obviously this has nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that to obtain "Associated NGO" status, an NGO must agree to promote and respect the U.N. charter. Many governments make this agreement and are not booted out of the U.N. when they strongly criticize its actions. The United States is the prime example.

: Question: So what is in it for the WTS if they don’t get any money?

: Oleg: Well, they are promoting the UN and it helps to show you support the UN in certain areas

Oleg did not answer the question asked.

Obviously, by its own admission, the Watchtower Society got a special library card that allowed certain members of the Writing Staff (namely, Ciro Aulicino) special access to the U.N. library. That special cardholding status was precisely the goal of the Society's obtaining Associated NGO status. Since members of the public -- indeed, anyone not officially associated with the U.N. -- are not allowed this access, Associated NGOs by definition have special status.

Furthermore, "every year, the associated NGOs need to renew their United Nations photo grounds passes which allow them access to UN Headquarters." ( http://www.un.org/dpi/ngosection/application-pro.html )" Such a special "photo grounds pass" by definition gives the holder special status. This pass also allows the holder special access to the U.N. grounds ( http://www.un.org/dpi/ngosection/assoc-ngos.html ):

Associated NGO Access to the United Nations headquarters
1. Entry into United Nations Headquarters
Representatives of associated NGOs, with valid annual grounds passes, may enter United Nations Headquarters through the NGO doorway at the Visitor’s Entrance on First Avenue at 46th Street. Representatives of NGOs who are accredited to the United Nations for a specific period of time, may only enter United Nations Headquarters through the NGO doorway at 46th Street.
During the three week-long General Debate beginning in September, or when heightened security considerations require extra measures, the NGO doorway at 46th Street shall be the only entry point into United Nations Headquarters. The United Nations Security and Safety Service shall give advanced notice of such times to the NGO focal point in the Department of Economic and Social Affairs (DESA).
The Delegates’ Entrance at 45th Street and 1st Avenue is strictly reserved for delegations from the Permanent and Observer Missions and can not be used by NGOs.
2. Access to the Second Floor of the Conference Building of the United Nations
The General Assembly Hall is a restricted area. Fifty seats at the front of the 4th floor balcony area reserved for members of accredited NGOs who wish to attend meetings of the General Assembly.

Ciro Aulicino actually bragged to certain of his relatives and acquaintances about sitting in on U.N. sessions that the public has no access to, in the "4th floor balcony area reserved for members of accredited NGOs".

: End of converstation.

: Lets review.

Yes, let's. And we will see how thirdwitness lies and misrepresents things.

: Are NGOs with the DPI part of the UN?

: NOOOOOOO. Not according to Oleg.

Oleg said nothing of the kind. Thirdwitness is creating his usual straw man.

What Oleg obviously meant, in context, was that NGOs do not have governmental status or the special rights and privileges accorded to governments.

: Perhaps he got his information from the fact that the UN/DPI clearly states that NGOs with the DPI are not incorporated into the UN.

Duh. Only governments can be part of the U.N. itself. But the DPI most certainly views Associated NGOs as partners in promoting the U.N., its Charter and its goals. The straw man is hugely in evidence here.

: Do NGOs with the DPI have special status? NOOOOOO.

YEEEEESS. The special status included the coveted library card and a special photo grounds pass allowing the holder access to restricted areas.

: Not according to this DPI officer named Oleg. Perhaps his information comes from the fact that the UN/DPI clearly says that NGOs with the DPI have no special priviledges etc.

Perhaps the problem lies in the ignorant, and perhaps devious manner in which the questions were posed. The U.N. website clearly describes special privileges accorded to Associated NGOs.

: Must NGOs support the UN in all their endeavors? NOOOOOOO. Not according to Oleg.

Another straw man as well as a direct lie. Oleg clearly stated that the Associated NGO must put out "information showing you will promote and adhere to what the UN does." No exceptions.

: They can even criticize them. And their support can be in certain areas only. Hmmmmm.

That this is a straw man is proved by the fact that the United States regularly criticizes the U.N. and yet is its biggest supporter, at least on paper.

: It seems this quote might apply after all: The organization shall undertake to support the work of the United Nations and to promote knowledge of its principles and activities, in accordance with its own aims and purposes and the nature and scope of its competence and activities.”

Indeed it does, but the quote is only part of the story of what NGO's are obligated to do. First and foremost, they're required to promote and respect the U.N. Charter, and to agree that the Charter's principles are part of the NGO's own basic principles.

: The plot thickens as we see that the WTS did not compromise their neutrality

Indeed it did, by formally agreeing to promote and respect the U.N. Charter.

: nor did they 'join' the UN.

You're capitalizing on the sloppy language used by many people. The Society most certainly joined itself to the U.N. by becoming a partner with the DPI and agreeing to promote and respect the U.N. Charter.

: They merely agreed to write information about the UN and that was it.

Information that appeared to outsiders to promote and respect the U.N. Charter, its goals and its agenda. That September, 1991 Awake! article is a prime example of this giving an appearance of support.

Can anyone imagine that Daniel, confronted with Nebuchadnezzar's command to bow down and worship the Babylonian gods, might have bowed down with his fingers crossed behind his back? Who would he have been fooling? Can anyone imagine that the early Christians, confronted with a simple demand to burn a pinch of incense to the Roman emperor, would have crossed their fingers behind their back and burned the incense, reasoning that God knows that they didn't 'really' worship the emperor, because God saw their crossed fingers? Not bloody likely. Yet this is exactly what that 1991 Awake! did, and so did many other subsequent articles that gave the appearance to non-JWs of supporting the U.N.

: Apparently the support that apostates claim that the WTS agreed to means only the following in accord with what Oleg, an officer of the UN himself said:

I just love these dishonest, hypocritical and self-serving excuses that completely ignore the facts.

: When the Watchtower Society began educating the public on the United Nations and it's place in Bible prophecy from 1945 onwards, it could be said that our support was to “furnish corroborating evidence for” to the UN whether we intended to or not — at least in the sense of educating the public in what the UN is, what it is there for, and what it does.

The fact is that if the U.N. had been properly informed about the nature of the Watchtower Society's longstanding and determined bashing of the U.N., by its calling it a tool of the devil and so forth, it never would have accepted the Watchtower for Associated NGO status. But U.N. staffers are extremely secularly oriented and not accustomed to the extreme deviousness of Watchtower officials, and they never made the connection between the Watchtower Society and Jehovah's Witnesses. This was a real embarassment to some of these U.N. officials, and that is why they were not especially forthcoming in explaining how they managed to allow a rabid enemy to become an Associated NGO.

: The UN wants the public to know about its existence and relevance in the world. That is why even organizations which criticize the UN's failings can remain DPI NGOs — as did the Watchtower Society.

This is almost too funny for words. Until 1991 the Society published nothing but extreme denunciations of the U.N. After that, it toned down the rhetoric greatly. Many of us JW critics wondered out loud about this, speculating that perhaps the Society was trying to ingratiate itself with the U.N. for some obscure purpose. It all became clear in the autumn of 2001.

: Since the DPI is there to disseminate information

Spin-doctoring bigtime here. The DPI is there to disseminate information that promotes the U.N., its Charter, its goals and its agenda. To claim that disseminating violent criticism that claims that the U.N. is an enemy of God and the tool of Satan is obviously a bit outside the DPI's goals.

: it is reasonable to believe that the definition “to furnish corroborating evidence for” would be the applicable definition for the word ‘support’ in this case.

Thirdwitness has lapsed into meaningless gibberish.

I'll have to hand it to thirdwitness. He certainly gives defending the Watchtower cult the old college try. But like all attempts to defend indefensible cults, his try is rife with lies, misrepresentations, half-truths and self-deception.

AlanF

597

Great news. The WTS did not commit spiritual prostitution with UN.

by thirdwitness in

http://www.jehovahsjudgment.co.uk/watchtower-un-ngo/

AlanF

thirdwitness is desperately trying to show that the Watchtower Society did not violate its own long-established precepts condemning the United Nations as a tool of Satan. He wants to do this to spare himself the embarassment of being a member of a grossly hypocritical and self-serving cult.

Let's cut to the chase on what the Watchtower Society agreed to by becoming an Associated NGO.

Some important points first: "NGO" (Non-Governmental Organization) is really a generic term -- no surprise here -- for any and all organizations that are not governments. The U.N. narrows the definition considerably in describing non-governmental organizations that might form an official relationship with the U.N. Department of Public Information (DPI): "A non-governmental organization (NGO) is a not-for-profit, voluntary citizens’ group, which is organized on a local, national or international level to address issues in support of the public good." ( http://www.un.org/dpi/ngosection/criteria.html ). It is in this narrow sense that the U.N. and its personnel virtually always use the capitalized term "Non-Governmental Organization" or the acronym "NGO". An "Associated NGO" is an NGO that has met certain U.N. criteria, such as agreeing to promote its charter, and has applied for and received this "Associated" status. By receiving this status, an Associated NGO agrees to become, in effect, a promoter of the U.N. in general, all articles of its charter, and to advertise its agenda and goals. The U.N. considers these Associated NGO's partners ( http://www.un.org/dpi/ngosection/about-ngo-assoc.html ):

About NGO Association with the UN
Non-governmental organizations have been partners of the Department of Public Information (DPI) since its establishment in 1947. Official relationships between DPI and NGOs date back to 1968. The Economic and Social Council in its resolution 1297 called on DPI to associate NGOs with effective information programmes in place and thus disseminate information about issues on the UN’s agenda and the work of the Organization. Through associated NGOs DPI seeks to reach people around the world and help them better understand the work and aims of the United Nations.

In informal speech, most people -- including U.N. personnel -- tend to neglect the "Associated" part of "Associated NGO" and simply refer to Assocated NGOs as "NGOs". While this is technically incorrect, in the context of a particular conversation it's usually not a problem to understand what the speaker means.

It almost goes without saying that an organization whose primary view of the U.N. is negative cannot promote U.N. goals.

It also almost goes without saying that it is correct to say that any NGO that formally associates with the U.N. Department of Public Information (DPI) has joined itself to the U.N. by virtue of its association. This is not "joining the U.N.", as this is limited to governments by the U.N. charter. The difference in wording is crucial in these discussions, because thirdwitness is deliberately taking advantage of the ambiguity of language to deny that the Watchtower Society joined itself in any sense to the U.N.

With the introductory material out of the way, here is the bottom line: In describing the responsibilities of Associated NGOs, the U.N.'s website section "Criteria for association with DPI" ( http://www.un.org/dpi/ngosection/criteria.html ) states:

The NGO must support and respect the principles of the Charter of the UN and have a clear mission statement with those principles.

That's the bottom line, ladies and gentlemen -- (1) supporting and respecting the principles of the Charter of the UN and, (2) having a clear mission statement with those principles.

Thus, any NGO that formally associates itself with the U.N. DPI is agreeing that it supports and respects the U.N. charter, and that its own "mission statement" agrees with that charter.

What principles are part of the U.N. charter? Below, I quote some of these principles. Readers will note that they are completely in line with the Watchtower Society's religious doctrine since about 1919 that the League of Nations, and its successor the United Nations, are instruments of Satan that attempt to substitute a manmade political organization for the "Kingom of God established in heaven in 1914" ( http://www.un.org/aboutun/charter/index.html ):

Charter of the United Nations
We the Peoples of the United Nations . . . United for a Better World
PREAMBLE
WE THE PEOPLES OF THE UNITED NATIONS DETERMINED
to save succeeding generations from the scourge of war, which twice in our lifetime has brought untold sorrow to mankind, and
to reaffirm faith in fundamental human rights, in the dignity and worth of the human person, in the equal rights of men and women and of nations large and small . . .
AND FOR THESE ENDS
. . .
to unite our strength to maintain international peace and security
. . .
to employ international machinery for the promotion of the economic and social advancement of all peoples

Article 1
The Purposes of the United Nations are:
To maintain international peace and security, and to that end: to take effective collective measures for the prevention and removal of threats to the peace, and for the suppression of acts of aggression or other breaches of the peace, and to bring about by peaceful means, and in conformity with the principles of justice and international law, adjustment or settlement of international disputes or situations which might lead to a breach of the peace;
To develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, and to take other appropriate measures to strengthen universal peace;
To achieve international co-operation in solving international problems of an economic, social, cultural, or humanitarian character, and in promoting and encouraging respect for human rights and for fundamental freedoms for all without distinction as to race, sex, language, or religion

Article 2
The Organization and its Members, in pursuit of the Purposes stated in Article 1, shall act in accordance with the following Principles.
The Organization is based on the principle of the sovereign equality of all its Members.

Article 23
The Security Council shall consist of fifteen Members of the United Nations. The Republic of China, France, the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and the United States of America shall be permanent members of the Security Council. The General Assembly shall elect ten other Members of the United Nations to be non-permanent members of the Security Council, due regard being specially paid, in the first instance to the contribution of Members of the United Nations to the maintenance of international peace and security and to the other purposes of the Organization, and also to equitable geographical distribution.

Article 24
In order to ensure prompt and effective action by the United Nations, its Members confer on the Security Council primary responsibility for the maintenance of international peace and security, and agree that in carrying out its duties under this responsibility the Security Council acts on their behalf.

Article 42
Should the Security Council consider that measures provided for in Article 41 would be inadequate or have proved to be inadequate, it may take such action by air, sea, or land forces as may be necessary to maintain or restore international peace and security. Such action may include demonstrations, blockade, and other operations by air, sea, or land forces of Members of the United Nations.

Article 44
When the Security Council has decided to use force it shall, before calling upon a Member not represented on it to provide armed forces in fulfilment of the obligations assumed under Article 43, invite that Member, if the Member so desires, to participate in the decisions of the Security Council concerning the employment of contingents of that Member's armed forces.

Article 45
In order to enable the United Nations to take urgent military measures, Members shall hold immediately available national air-force contingents for combined international enforcement action. The strength and degree of readiness of these contingents and plans for their combined action shall be determined within the limits laid down in the special agreement or agreements referred to in Article 43, by the Security Council with the assistance of the Military Staff Committee.

Article 46
Plans for the application of armed force shall be made by the Security Council with the assistance of the Military Staff Committee.

Article 47
There shall be established a Military Staff Committee to advise and assist the Security Council on all questions relating to the Security Council's military requirements for the maintenance of international peace and security, the employment and command of forces placed at its disposal, the regulation of armaments, and possible disarmament.
The Military Staff Committee shall consist of the Chiefs of Staff of the permanent members of the Security Council or their representatives. Any Member of the United Nations not permanently represented on the Committee shall be invited by the Committee to be associated with it when the efficient discharge of the Committee's responsibilities requires the participation of that Member in its work.
The Military Staff Committee shall be responsible under the Security Council for the strategic direction of any armed forces placed at the disposal of the Security Council. Questions relating to the command of such forces shall be worked out subsequently.
The Military Staff Committee, with the authorization of the Security Council and after consultation with appropriate regional agencies, may establish regional sub-committees.

Article 48
The action required to carry out the decisions of the Security Council for the maintenance of international peace and security shall be taken by all the Members of the United Nations or by some of them, as the Security Council may determine.
Such decisions shall be carried out by the Members of the United Nations directly and through their action in the appropriate international agencies of which they are members.

Article 49
The Members of the United Nations shall join in affording mutual assistance in carrying out the measures decided upon by the Security Council.

So, what the Watchtower Society did, by formally becoming an Associated NGO, was to agree to respect and promote all of the above Charter provisions, including those that directly fly in the face of its claim that only "God's Kingdom" has the right to organize mankind into a worldwide, unified whole and to solve mankind's problems, including the one of "peace and security". This is its hypocrisy. All of thirdwitness' lies, misrepresentations and attempts to minimize the Watchtower Society's hypocrisy do nothing to negate the above simple facts.

AlanF

20

The ZERO Year.....red herring?

by rassillon in

i have been researching and studying the 607/587/1914 thing for a while now.

not nearly as knowlegeable as leolaia alanf, etal.....

but, even though i have learned to question almost everything, i haven't really questioned the assertion that russell did not realize there was no zero year.

AlanF

Ok, rassillon, let me work up to the explanation using dates that Russell more or less used. Russell did almost all of his Gentile times related calculations based on October 1 of whatever year he was interested in.

The simplest thing to start with is to note that the one-year timescale from October 1, 1 B.C. to October 1, 1 A.D. is exactly one year. That's because there is no zero year. If there were a zero year, you would calculate thusly: Oct. 1, 1 B.C. to Oct. 1, Year Zero to Oct. 1, 1 A.D. would be exactly two years.

Now add one year to each end of the one-year timescale:

2 B.C. + 1 year gets you to:
1 B.C. + 1 year gets you to:
1 A.D. + 1 year gets you to:
2 A.D.

That spans exactly three years, because you've added two years to the one-year timescale we started with.

Now extend that again this way:

606 B.C. + 605 years gets you to:
1 B.C. + 1 year gets you to:
1 A.D. + 1913 years gets you to:
1914 A.D.

That spans exactly 2,519 years, because you've added 605 + 1913 years to the one-year timescale we started with.

Now go to the Society's modern 607-based calculation:

607 B.C. + 606 years gets you to:
1 B.C. + 1 year gets you to:
1 A.D. + 1913 years gets you to:
1914 A.D.

That spans exactly 2,520 years, because you've added 606 + 1913 years to the one-year timescale we started with.

I hope that clears things up.

Now to really fuzz things up, consider what Fred Franz did in the 1943 book The Truth Shall Make You Free to make the date change. VM44 and Atlantis referenced the exact material of interest from that book.

Franz wrote a bunch of gibberish to confuse his readers. Thus, it is not possible to make sense of it, because it is designed to be nonsensical. Remember that Russell had begun the Gentile times on October 1, 606 B.C. What Franz tried to do was move that date back by exactly one year to October 1, 607 B.C. But because stating that outright might well have been too much even for the most braindead of JWs, he tried to pretend that he was moving the date back by only part of one year, from January 1, 606 to October 1, 607. He implied this without actually saying it. This was fairly easy since almost all JWs would never notice the verbal sleight of hand. It's a lot easier to pretend to move a date by three months than one full year, no?

But this left Franz with a problem. Up until page 239 in The Truth Shall Make You Free, Franz had used 606 B.C. for both the beginning of the Gentile times and the fall of Jerusalem. It appears to me that much of the book was typeset by that time, and couldn't be changed. Now, historians by the late 19th century knew that Jerusalem fell in the summer, although there was some uncertainty about the year. Various historians generally used 585 to 589 B.C., but Barbour and Russell chose 606. Thus, the timeline was: Jerusalem falls about August 1, 606, then the Gentile times begin the following October 1, 606 B.C. Franz's problem was this: throughout the 1943 book, he stated that Jerusalem fell in 606 B.C. Thus, after page 239, he was claiming that the Gentile times began October 1, 607 B.C., and that Jerusalem fell 10 months later in August, 606 B.C.!

Someone must have noticed this problem, because in the next year's book, The Kingdom Is At Hand, Franz included a time chart which showed the date of Jerusalem's destruction as 607 B.C. On page 171, he 'explained' in a footnote that this change had been explained on page 239 of the 1943 book -- which was a flat-out lie, which anyone can see for himself via Atlantis' scan.

But Franz was not through with the lies required to accomplish the date change. These books were soon published in various non-English languages, but by then the Society was using 607 instead of 606 for the above events in its other publications, especially in The Watchtower. Therefore, in the non-English editions of The Truth Shall Make You Free, what was "606" in the English edition up through page 239 was changed to "607", and what was "607" on and beyond page 239 was changed to "608". This, of course, was even more nonsensical than the English edition, but since most JWs really don't pay attention to such things, apparently the nonsense went unnoticed. So far, I've confirmed that this is so in the following language editions: Spanish, French, Danish, Swedish, Arabic. These were all published about 1945 or later.

For an in-depth look at the above date changes, look here: http://corior.blogspot.com/2006/02/evolution-of-606-to-607-bce-in.html

AlanF

1380

The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness in

think about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.

why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?

as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.

AlanF

The fact that Revelation has nothing to do with anything going on today is proved by a simple little passage that the Watchtower Society and its defenders never really address. They use Revelation 6 to justify their claims about "the last days" beginning in 1914, but it contains this fatal little passage. Note Revelation 6:1-8 (from NIV):

1 I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I heard one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, "Come!" 2 I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest. 3 When the Lamb opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say, "Come!" 4 Then another horse came out, a fiery red one. Its rider was given power to take peace from the earth and to make men slay each other. To him was given a large sword. 5 When the Lamb opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, "Come!" I looked, and there before me was a black horse! Its rider was holding a pair of scales in his hand. 6 Then I heard what sounded like a voice among the four living creatures, saying, "A quart of wheat for a day's wages, and three quarts of barley for a day's wages, and do not damage the oil and the wine!" 7 When the Lamb opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, "Come!" 8 I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.

Now, it's obvious that massive death by "the wild beasts of the earth" is not exactly a serious problem today. In fact, because of the severe cutting back on the number of these "wild beasts", it's rare in most countries for anyone even to meet up with one. Since this prophecy is clearly not being fulfilled today, neither is the rest of Revelation 6, or the other parts of Revelation that the JWs claim are directly related.

It will be amusing to see what thirdwitness does with this.

For anyone interested, I'll be away over the Labor Day holiday and will not likely be reading this board.

AlanF

39

Earthquakes and rumors of war or whatever ;o)

by Hellrider in

i was so inspired by the ridicolousness of thirdwitnoid in that other thread ("the gentile times reconsidered again...but this time i am using the bible"), in which he actually dared bring up the old "increase in earthquakes"-fairytale from the wt and asleep.

it really had nothing to do in that thread, which was about 607 vs 587 (oh no, not that again.... datelocationdeathsmagnitude.

jan. 23, 1556. shansi, china .

AlanF

Hellrider, it's amusing how us "apostates" can see these things so clearly, but one of "Jehovah's people" is completely blind.

Thirdwitness seems to understand, in a ferally clever kind of way, that honestly answering questions like I posed destroys his arguments. That's why it's so hard to get him to answer. I posed that question to him about 15 times before he answered.

Of course, thirdwitness will pay no attention to your observations, and will continue to use his bogus argument, just as his partner in braindeadness -- scholar pretendus stupidus maximus -- does. He has no choice, because to drop the argument means dropping all of his beliefs about a "composite sign" beginning in 1914. This is Orwellian doublethink/crimestop in action.

AlanF

20

The ZERO Year.....red herring?

by rassillon in

i have been researching and studying the 607/587/1914 thing for a while now.

not nearly as knowlegeable as leolaia alanf, etal.....

but, even though i have learned to question almost everything, i haven't really questioned the assertion that russell did not realize there was no zero year.

AlanF

rassillon, the stuff you quoted from Russell shows that he did not know there was no zero year.

To calculate the length of time properly for periods spanning 1 B.C. to 1 A.D. you apply this formula: XXXX B.C.+ YYYY A.D. - 1. Thus, the one year span from 1 B.C. to 1 A.D. becomes 1 + 1 - 1 = 1 year. You also get 606 + 1914 - 1 = 2519.

AlanF

39

Earthquakes and rumors of war or whatever ;o)

by Hellrider in

i was so inspired by the ridicolousness of thirdwitnoid in that other thread ("the gentile times reconsidered again...but this time i am using the bible"), in which he actually dared bring up the old "increase in earthquakes"-fairytale from the wt and asleep.

it really had nothing to do in that thread, which was about 607 vs 587 (oh no, not that again.... datelocationdeathsmagnitude.

jan. 23, 1556. shansi, china .

AlanF

In his post # 384 on page 2 of this thread, thirdwitness wrote:

: Hey did you know that earthquakes in 1556 averaged close to one million per year. How about that statistic?

It's on about the same level as your claim that earthquakes are much worse since 1914 than ever before.

: You can't just pull out of your hat and start with a big earthquake that occured and then finish with a big earthquake and claim see there how many died from this period to the period. More is involved than earthquakes.

Very true. But since no one has done this, your statement is obviously a stupidly transparent ploy to suggest that some actually have done this. Hence, you're dancing the usual Watchtower sidestep by creating straw men. In other words, you're lying.

: I challenge you to find any 90 year period that had almost 2 million earthquake deaths and 100 million war deaths.

It is you who are claiming startling changes for the post-1914 period. Since you are claiming such extraordinary events, it is your problem to prove your contention. It is not the probem of others to disprove it.

: And then there is famine and all the other parts of the sign.

Right. And famine and pestilence are demonstrably much less severe, by all measures, since 1914 than before.

What's interesting, and sad, is that you've been challenged on this point quite a number of times to provide statistics, but you never come through. Since you never come through, it's obvious that you can find no data -- even in Watchtower publications -- to prove your claim.

: And so after you find that 90 year period with 2 million and 100 million deaths from eqs and wars, make sure it is also the same 90 year period when the good news of the kingdom of God is preached in almost every country to millions of people.

What's sadly funny about this statement is that thirdwitness doesn't seem to understand the childly simple point that all he's saying is, "when else have modern day Jehovah's Witnesses been active besides the 20th century?"

: And I'm not talking about the false news about some Trinity God that burns people in hell forever. I'm talking about the real good news of the kingdom--a kingdom set up with God's son as ruler by the true God who is not a Trinity, Jehovah, that will bring paradise conditions to earth as foretold in the Bible.

Yes indeedy! When else have Jehovah's Witnesses and their predecessor Bible Students been around but in the late-19th and 20th centuries!

: Then you will have made your point.

You make the extraordinary claim. It's up to you to prove it. It's not up to anyone else to disprove it.

Oh, by the way, how is that invisible pink unicorn above your head doing lately? Please tell him hello for me!

And again by the way, I really want to know: How do you view the serious problem among your brothers that they've been fornicating at a rate 130 times greater than 70 years ago?

AlanF

20