sarah .
thank you for posting this information.
everyone else: it's 31 pages, print it out it's worth the read.
I understand that there is a book that is soon to be released, defending passages translated in the New World Translation. This was written by several scholarly JW authors. I believe it has an essay on the "torture stake." You should keep an eye out for it, as it may be released within the next few weeks. I am sure you will find it interesting.
Sincerely,
Alf3831
reinhardt is mentioned in ray's cof c book.
he was on the writing committee and was forced from brooklyn bethel in the early 80's (along with ray and mr dunlap).
i understand he may now live in the seattle area and has left the wts.
I am glad to see that Bro. Lengtat is doing well. Several years ago I had the opportunity of chatting with him by phone. He was very kind and very open during our discussion. I recall we spoke for over two hours. He is a very knowledgeable brother, and very kind. I later wrote him a letter, thanking him for his kindness. He responded with a 4-page handwritten letter, expressing sincere concern for my spiritual health at that time. I appreciated his kindness, and will always consider him a dear and loving friend. I do recall him stating that he did continue an active JW for several years after leaving Bethel, even serving as an elder for some time. I assume he left in the early to mid 80's. He is not antagonistic towards JW's, and although not starting his own religion, he does meet with several people in private homes to discuss the Bible.
Mulan, please let him know that I appreciated all of his kind words (cannot reveal my identity at this time). He may remember me in that I was heavily involved in JW apologetics at that time. Thanks!
---Alf3831---
as some of you may know, i am engaged in research regarding the history of church discipline.it comes of course as no great surprise to learn that the wts seldom has an exclusive right to any of its own doctrines despite its attempt at painting itself as the champion of prime truth and integrity.
i chanced upon a statement made in a book dealing with methodist discipline and published in 1884 that focuses on the charge of apostasy and its outcome :
"#235 - if a member of our church shall be accused of endeavoring to sow dissension in any of our societies, by inveighing against either our doctrines or discipline, the person so offending shall first be reproved by the preacher in charge; if he persist in such pernicious practice he shall be bought to trail, tried by three discreet members of the church, and if found guilty should be expelled".
Hilary,
You might find of interest the series "History of the Christian Church." I know that in the first three volumes of this work by Phillip Schaff, that "Church Discipline" is discussed. I found it interesting that this work discusses that in the early church they practiced three forms of discipline, namely "private counsel", "public correction", and "excommunication." It goes into detail how the early church instilled a system of showing repentance, and how those expelled could "prove worthy" to return to full fellowship in the church.
Hope this helps.
Alf3831
metatron,.
just thought i would pass along some information to you in response to your post.
would be interested in reviewing your comments to the following:.
Metatron,
Just thought I would pass along some information to you in response to your post. Would be interested in reviewing your comments to the following:
"Leviticus 24:15-16 (LXX) is speaking about the one who, according to verses 11 through 16, "named THE NAME ***AND***cursed" (LXX). Anyone reading from verse 11 onward can see this. It is so obvious that the Targum in verses 15-16 reads: "Any man who pronounces the name of God IN BLASPHEMY will receive the punishment of his sins. And whoever pronounces the name of the Lord IN BLASPHEMY shall surely be put to death...when one pronounces the name of God IN BLASPHEMY he shall be killed."
The Hebrew text agrees with the Targum in its explicit language, and Jesus read the Hebrew text in the synagogue, not the LXX. What language he spoke outside the synagogue, and on what occasions, is debatable. The LXX is simply obvious per the context as noted above.
Furthermore, Jewish sources shortly after the time of Jesus indicate that the Jews did pronounce the name of God, hence showing they did not share the understanding of Leviticus 24:15-16 communicated by metatron. See the Mishnah, Yoma 6:2; Berakhot 9:5. See in the Tosefta, Barakhot 6(7), 20; Yeadim 2:20. Combine this with the fact that we have phonetic transcriptions of the divine name (notably, IAW) in Jewish copies of the LXX in circulation prior to and during the time of the first century CE and we have plenty of evidence to suggest that metatron has misapplied or misunderstood the meaning of Leviticus 24:15-16 in its proper context. This is particularly evident in light of the Hebrew original and the explicit Jewish understanding found in the Targums and the Jewish practice as evidenced by the Mishnah, Tosefta and other Jewish sources. All of this information and more is discussed in detail in Jehovah's Witnesses Defended, The Role of Theology and Bias in Bible Translation and in Three Dissertations.
Sincerely,
Alf3831
(apologies to any little greeks!
you know what i mean - a guy who's had no formal training in biblical greek who keeps digging up "treasures from the original".
i gave a couple of examples in the greek synonyms thread.. i once had an argument (by mail) with a christadelphian who was arguing that the use of the middle voice in a verse in hebrews meant that jesus had to die for his own salvation, not that of anyone else!
Steph,
I do agree with you that a "little greek" is a dangerous thing. This is so for the Jehovah's Witnesses who feel they are competent in Greek after researching WT articles on John 1:1. This is also the case for those in christendom who buy anti-cult books at the christian bookstore and feel they are at the level of Biblical Greek Scholars.
It has been shown that there arent a vast number of Greek scholars amongst JW's, but there are many Classical Greek Scholars, along with dozens of JW's that have taken Greek courses at the under-graduate and graduate level. Greg Stafford admitted during a radio interview with Clay Jones that he has completed several Greek courses at the under-graduate level. His background as well as Rolf Furuli's have been in Linguistics. In addition, there have been others that have taught Greek, such as Nicholas Kip, who taught at Phillips Academy (Current Dept Chair in Classics), he majored in Classics at Princeton University, and received his graduate degree from Trinity College. He has also taught New Testament Greek courses at Phillips Academy. Also, one must not forget other JW's who teach or have taught Greek at the university level, such as John Albu, Max Wornhard, and Frank Shaw. I believe Dr. Firpo Carr completed a few classes in Greek at Claremont College, which I believe is a seminary. The bulk of Greek classes taken by Fred Franz at the University of Cinncinati, have been in Classical Greek. Given the vast scope of christian brotherhood amongst JW's there is no telling how many JW's have completed Greek courses, and are thus well-versed in the language. Not to mention the hundreds of former clergymen whom are now JW's and have taken Greek classes at Seminary.
Hope this helps to shed light on your post.
Sincerely,
Alf3831
a funny looking and funny sounding man was standing at a street intersection hollering about how john ashcroft must be brought down, and that the man who will save us all is lyndon larouche.
he was wearing a placard that said down with ashcroft -- bring in larouche.. for a dollar's contribution, i received two copies of larouche's may 1st washington d.c. seminar and the june 10th edition of the new federalist.. this man has the truth and even though there is no jehovah and you know is wrong about armageddon we need to get behind larouche it is the only way we can save ourselves from ourselves do it now give him your money make him president bring about positive change for the future!!!!!!
!
Cygnus,
Is Larouche out of jail already? I know he had been jailed some time back. I know that his people use to say that he was a political prisoner. Hmmmmm
Alf3831
i remember someone saying that an anouncement was going to be made at greg's kingdom hall about him being disfellowshiped tonight.. does anyone know if that happened?
<<Is Greg Stafford Disfellowshiped?>>
No, Greg is not disfellowshipped, contrary to what you previously heard.
---Alf3831---
when the new song book "sing praises to jehovah" was introduced from the great publishing company in 1984, it was clearly and frankly admitted (suprisingly) that some of the old songs had to be dropped due to the fact they were copied from other religions and some even infringed copyright in this regard.
however, from an early age "we thank you jehovah" had always reminded me of "god save the queen" and this song was not dropped and continues to be regularly used down to this day.. i realise in later life that the two songs are indeed similar in a musical sense.
you can almost play one song on top of the other in places and the starting chord structure is identical.. also, the two songs both seem to have a certain feeling of reverence which i am not sure is conjured up by the timing and the harmony alone or by the meaning the songs have in terms of their lyrics and use.. it turns out the british tune has been used many times over by different people and even by other countries, as european visitors to britain in the eighteenth century noticed the advantage of a country possessing such a recognised musical symbol - including germany, russia, switzerland and america (where use of the tune continued after independence).
FYI,
According to Jimmy Kennedy in the book entitled "Something to Laugh About." The Kingdom song "We Thank You Jehovah" was written by Henry Russell, a JW who for many years was a musical composer for NBC Radio.
Also, the song "Keep your eyes on the prize" was written by Ben Homer, a JW musical composer who also wrote the hit song "Sentimental Journey."
---Alf3831---
today i received greg stafford's new book three dissertations on the teachings of jehovah's witnesses.
for those who don't know, stafford has been a staunch defender of the watchtower society's teachings for at least six years, on the net and in print.
his previous book, jehovah's witnesses defended (1998, 2000), is a milestone in pro-jw literature.. the new book is a radical departure from stafford's previous book in that he strongly questions the society's doctrines about blood transfusions, the basis for the claim of spiritual authority by jw leaders, the necessity for christians to believe the society's 1914 doctrine, and issues of "legalism" including the propriety of requiring "time" in the field ministry to be reported, and even the supposed scriptural basis for the society's ban on celebrating birthdays and christmas.
<<If I remember correctly James White debated Greg Stafford and crushed thoroughly. If you have real audio you can catch the details here http://www.straitgate.com/jw021200.ram >>
Dear Sir,
Just a point of correction here. Although there have been attempts to schedule a face to face debate between James White and Greg Stafford, such has never taken place. I believe the radio show you cite has a discussion between James White and a JW apologist named "Rick."
To my knowledge, Greg has only had three discussions on radio. These were with Craig Hawkins, Robert Bowman, and recently with a radio program in San Diego, Ca.
---Alf3831---
does anyone have up-to-date info on or personally know the following jw apologists and defenders.
are they still in the organization or have they since left?.
1. nelson herle.
Stevie,
All three remain Jehovah's Witnesses.
Alf3831
