Posts by Alleymom

6

This is about out beloved Dansk

by mouthy in

how sorry i was to hear from dansk-he is going through a very difficult time.. i would like all prayers, thoughts, please keep this in mind ____ for me!!!!.

the sad news he has cancer.it is lymphoma!!!

they are waiting on the results of the biopsy before determining treatment..... he didnt want me to say anything at first- as he feels you all have your own problems & he didnt want to upset anyone-because he says "they are dear friends".

Alleymom

This afternoon I had my reassessment appointment with the professor at Christie's Hospital, Manchester. The professor gave me a thorough examination and promptly pronounced that I was worse than last time (last September) and that
I would be dead before next June!

Dear Ian ---

Even supposing that you seem worse than when the doctor saw you in September, he hasn't been seeing you every month. So perhaps you're actually better than you were in January. Didn't Dominick tell you the tumour looked smaller?

Now, regarding this "dead-before-next-June" statement from the doctor who apparently missed the class on bedside manners --- errrrr, just so we're all on the same page here, when he said "next" June did he mean June 2005 or June 2006?

Loving (and nosy) friends want to know!

Edited to ask ---- is this the same doctor who told you last summer that you would be dead in two months if you refused chemo?

Hugs to you all,

Marjorie xo xo

144

Tough day -- my mom died today

by cruzanheart in

jw
friends

poor thing, she's had alzheimer's for about 10 years and the last year she's been on hospice care because she's been so close to death.

the past few months she's been slowly filling up with water -- they gave her lasix (not sure of the spelling) to relieve the edema and it worked, sort of.

last weekend she actually looked a little better.

Alleymom

Nina ---

This is a print by Abbott Fuller Graves called "Peace and Sunshine". I pinned up a copy of it in the hospital for my best friend while she was dying. When I look at the open door of the cottage, which seems to lead to another door into a garden out back, it makes me think that Jeanne has gone through that door into a better place, full of Peace and Sunshine.

I pray that you and Chris and the children will be comforted in the loss of your mom. I was touched by your account of your last day with her.

With much sympathy,
Marjorie

96

Babylonian Business Records

by VM44 in

i have read that thousands of babylonian business records exist on clay tablets, and that these alone provide proof that the year 607bce is not what the watchtower claims it is.. since business is conducted on a day to day basis, these records should provide a continuous record of each babylonian kings reign.

is there a summary of the babylonian business records?

in particular, a timeline showing the number of business tables in existence corresponding to various kings and dates within a king/s reign?.

Alleymom

VM44 wrote:

I received an email from Carl Olof Jonsson!

I had asked him if he knew of any Neo-Babylonian records (tablets) containing interest loan computations crossing two reigns of Kings. I contended that such tablets would be proof conclusive of the relative chronology of the king list from Nebuchadnezzar to Cyrus.

COJ said that he has for many years been looking for tablets that can be used to connect two or more reigns in the Neo-Babylonian periodl. He mentioned that on pages 129-139 of the 4-th edition of his book, The Gentile Times Reconsidered (GTR4), eleven such tablets are presented , and that these tablets connect all the reigns in such a a way that prevents the addition of extra years between any two King's reigns.

Hi, VM ---

Just a quick note --- the information you mentioned about the 11 tablets which span two or more kings' reigns has previously been published in the third edition of GTR.

There's nothing new on this in GTR4. That section is the same.

Marjorie

96

Babylonian Business Records

by VM44 in

i have read that thousands of babylonian business records exist on clay tablets, and that these alone provide proof that the year 607bce is not what the watchtower claims it is.. since business is conducted on a day to day basis, these records should provide a continuous record of each babylonian kings reign.

is there a summary of the babylonian business records?

in particular, a timeline showing the number of business tables in existence corresponding to various kings and dates within a king/s reign?.

Alleymom

Here's another site for you. It's not as detailed, but take a look at the bibliography on page 10.

The two tablets in Sumerian and Akkadian include mathematical problems involving interest rates in kind on barley at 33 1/3% and on silver at 20% (
YBC4698 , YBC4669 ). The Babylonians understood the critical productive role of a rate of interest which Aristotle could not grasp and which was profoundly misunderstood in both Catholic and Moslem theology. http://www.museumofmoney.org/babylon/bab_page8.htm

96

Babylonian Business Records

by VM44 in

i have read that thousands of babylonian business records exist on clay tablets, and that these alone provide proof that the year 607bce is not what the watchtower claims it is.. since business is conducted on a day to day basis, these records should provide a continuous record of each babylonian kings reign.

is there a summary of the babylonian business records?

in particular, a timeline showing the number of business tables in existence corresponding to various kings and dates within a king/s reign?.

Alleymom

VM44 wrote:
Do you know where one might find a translation of a Babylonian interest-loan calculation? Even it it does not cross the reigns of two kings, it would be interesting to see just how they did the computations. I have read that they did both simple and compound interest computations, which is quite a feat, considering they used a base 60 number system.
Can you recommend any books or articles that cover ancient babylonian business (or astronomical) calculations?

VM ---

Sure, I have a lot of references. I typed up a reply for you earlier tonight, but when I clicked "submit" I lost the whole thing (and hadn't made a copy). Here's a shorter version.

Karen Rhea Nemet-Nejat. Cuneiform Mathematical Texts As a Reflection of Everyday Life in Mesopotamia. American Oriental Society: 1993. ISBN: 0940490757

Michael Hudson, " The Mathematical Economics of Compound Rates of Interest: A Four-Thousand Year Overview". < http://www.michael-hudson.com/articles/debt/CompoundInterest1.html > EXCERPT: Mathematics played a major role in the training of scribes. This hardly is surprising, as cuneiform writing?s first application (c. 3200 BC) was to economic account keeping. Already in the 3 rd millennium BC, scribes were trained in mathematical procedures such as manpower allocation problems (e.g., how many men were needed to dig canals of a given size or to produce a given amount of bricks), the surveying techniques needed to calculate surface measurements (including the geometric analysis of squares and circular shapes), astronomical computations and even quadratic equations. Scribes also were trained to calculate the expected growth of herds and the exponential growth of interest-bearing investments. [4]

Rather than reflecting economic productivity, profitability or the general ability to pay, the accrual of interest was essentially a mathematical phenomenon. For ease of computation, the normal commercial rate had been built into the system of sexagesimal weights and measures. Interest accrued at the rate of one shekel per mina per month, that is, the "unit fraction," 1/60 th . This rate remained constant over many centuries (indeed, millennia), and worked out to 12/60ths per year, 60/60ths in five years. Compounding occurred quinquennially, once the initial principal had reproduced itself in five years. [5] Interest rates in Greece, Rome and the Byzantine Empire likewise were based on ease of computation in their local systems of weights, measures and arithmetic. [6]

The fact that these interest rates were not economically based or responsive to changing economic conditions made repayment problems inevitable. Debt problems also develop today, of course, but contemporary theory insists that economies can adjust to any given level of debt charges. The Babylonians made no such assumption. Their student exercises show that they recognized that herds, for instance, increased at a slower pace than did the growth of debts mounting up at 20 percent per year, to say nothing of agrarian rates typically around 33 1/3 percent.
[...] Scribal students (nearly all of whom were employed in temple and palace bookkeeping) were taught to calculate how rapidly investments doubled when lent out at interest. A model exercise appears in a Berlin cuneiform text (VAT 8528): How long does it take a mina of silver to double at the normal commercial rate of interest of 1/60th (that is, one shekel per mina) per month? (This often is expressed a 20 percent annual interest, inasmuch as 12/60ths = 1/5 = 20 percent.) The solution involves calculating powers of 2 (2 2 = 4, 2 3 = 8 and so forth). [7]

The answer is five years at simple interest, as compounding began only once the principal sum had entirely reproduced itself after 60 months had passed. At this rate a mina multiplies fourfold in 10 years, eightfold in 15 years, sixteenfold in 20 years, and so forth. A related problem (VAT 8525) asks how long it will take for one mina to become 64, that is, 2 6 . The answer is 30 years, six times the basic five‑year doubling period (Illustration 1).

The basic idea of interest-bearing debt is one of doubling times. An ancient Egyptian saying that "If wealth is placed where it bears interest, it comes back to you redoubled." [8] Babylonian agricultural debts at the typical 33 1/3% rate doubled in three years. The Laws of Hammurapi appear to reflect the view that held that when creditors had received interest equal to their original principal ? after three years of service ? the debt should be deemed to be paid off and the debt bondservants freed.

[...]

But in Babylonia the earning capacity of subsistence rural producers hardly could be reconciled with creditor claims mounting up at the typical 33 1/3 percent rate of interest for agricultural loans (or even at the commercial 20 percent rate).

Such charges were unsustainable for economies as a whole. At no time in history has agricultural output grown at sustained rates approaching these levels. In situations where the loan proceeds were used for basic consumption needs, interest charges ate into the cultivator?s modest resources and finally absorbed them in toto. Once the usury process got underway and debtors were called on to pay sums beyond their ability to produce, creditors were enabled to draw the land and other wealth into their own hands.

Economic relations were put back in balance by Babylonian rulers acting from outside the economic system. They cancelled agrarian barley debts no less frequently than every thirty years, proclaiming clean slates on the occasion of their ascending to the throne, or as military or economic conditions dictated. [9] Modern economies would rely on income and price adjustments. But prices for most essentials, and most non-commercial incomes in Mesopotamia, were administered or set by custom. There was no idea that the economy by itself might automatically provide such balance. [footnotes #4-7]

[4] Karen Rhea Nemet-Nejat, Cuneiform Mathematical Texts as a Reflection of Everyday Life in Mesopotamia (New Haven 1993 = AOS Series Vol. 75) provides a bibliography. For the growth of herds, see Ignace Gelb, "Growth of a Herd of Cattle," Journal of Cuneiform Studies 21 (1967). [5] The Babylonians were well aware of the phenomenon of compound interest, but did not apply it in practice. Assyrian long-distance trade investments typically ran for five years (Larsen 1976), the time it took for the investment to double at the rate of 1/60 th per month. The money typically was re-invested in a new contract. From the Old Babylonian period (2000-1600 BC) to the neo-Babylonian epoch (c. 600-333 BC), no compound interest is found in agricultural or commercial practice. When loans were not paid off, interest was calculated and a new loan document was drawn up. [6] I explain the details briefly in "Why did interest rates in the ancient world consistently decline over the millennia," Archaeological Odyssey, July 1999. A more thorough discussion will appear in JESHO early in 2000. [7] Hildagard Lewy, "Marginal Notes on a Recent Volume of Babylonian Mathematical Texts," JAOS 67 (1947):308 and Nemet-Nejat, op. cit.: 59f.

Hudson refers to the "one shekel per mina per month" rate of interest. I have some links to sites which have Old Babylonian texts which mention this rate. (The OLD Babylonian texts have no bearing on the neo-Babylonian chronology, but if you are interested in how the texts were worded, these will give you an idea.

I am pretty sure I also have paper copies in my files, but I haven't had a chance to look.

CLICK HERE

Legal and commercial transactions dated in the Assyrian, Neo-Babylonian and Persian periods...chiefly from Nippur

Volume VIII, Part I

by Albert T. Clay

Philadelphia, Department of Archaeologyh, University of Pennsylvania, 1908

One of the documents is a promissory note, bearing interest at 20%. It states: "Monthly upon 1 mina, 1 shekel of silver shall increase."

Publications of the Babylonian Section, Vol. 8, Part 2:
Old Babylonian Contracts by Edward Chiera

Philadelphia: The University Museum, University of Pennsylvania, 1922 Donation documents
Marriage documents
Adoption documents
Purchase documents
Leases
Deeds of Loan -- Page 146Promissory Notes
Receipts
Partition Documents
Exchange Documents
Redemption Documents
Contracts of Hire
Legal Decisions

For the "Deeds of Loan", go here:

http://www.cwru.edu/univlib/preserve/Etana/CHIERA.OLDv8p2/CHIERA.OLDv8p2.134.153.pdf

Then go to page 13, which is page 146 of the original book, and scroll halfway down the page.

I have more information for you, but I will post this to start with.

Regards,

Marjorie

96

Babylonian Business Records

by VM44 in

i have read that thousands of babylonian business records exist on clay tablets, and that these alone provide proof that the year 607bce is not what the watchtower claims it is.. since business is conducted on a day to day basis, these records should provide a continuous record of each babylonian kings reign.

is there a summary of the babylonian business records?

in particular, a timeline showing the number of business tables in existence corresponding to various kings and dates within a king/s reign?.

Alleymom

Sheri ---

Welcome to the board!

Marjorie

96

Babylonian Business Records

by VM44 in

i have read that thousands of babylonian business records exist on clay tablets, and that these alone provide proof that the year 607bce is not what the watchtower claims it is.. since business is conducted on a day to day basis, these records should provide a continuous record of each babylonian kings reign.

is there a summary of the babylonian business records?

in particular, a timeline showing the number of business tables in existence corresponding to various kings and dates within a king/s reign?.

Alleymom

Alleymom is adorable

Awwwww!

But ... I am not the sharpest knife in the draw by any means

Hmmmmm!

I believe she is a sincere Christian ...

Um-hmmm!

... but not a true Christian

Ohhhhhhhh!

96

Babylonian Business Records

by VM44 in

i have read that thousands of babylonian business records exist on clay tablets, and that these alone provide proof that the year 607bce is not what the watchtower claims it is.. since business is conducted on a day to day basis, these records should provide a continuous record of each babylonian kings reign.

is there a summary of the babylonian business records?

in particular, a timeline showing the number of business tables in existence corresponding to various kings and dates within a king/s reign?.

Alleymom

Scholar wrote:

Jeremiah's prophecy covers the time range from the 13th year of Josaiah until the 11th year of Zedekiah and contains prophecies of denunciation and restoration and was directed to the people living in Jerusalem at that time.

It was Ezekiel and Daniel whose prophecies were directed to the exiles in Babylon ?

Chapter 29 of Jeremiah contains the words of a letter Jeremiah wrote to the exiles in Babylon.

Verse 3 even gives the names of the two messengers who carried it from Jerusalem to Babylon.

Regards,

Marjorie

96

Babylonian Business Records

by VM44 in

i have read that thousands of babylonian business records exist on clay tablets, and that these alone provide proof that the year 607bce is not what the watchtower claims it is.. since business is conducted on a day to day basis, these records should provide a continuous record of each babylonian kings reign.

is there a summary of the babylonian business records?

in particular, a timeline showing the number of business tables in existence corresponding to various kings and dates within a king/s reign?.

Alleymom

I will not be intimidated by anyone and will defend our wondrous chronology at all costs.

I firmly believe that Holy Spirit has revealed to His people a correct chronology which is the bedrock of Bible prophecy...

But, Neil, I have asked you repeatedly whether or not the chronological information in the 1965 WT I quoted is completely accurate, and you have refused to answer.

I can only assume, from your continued silence, that you do have private doubts about the accuracy of one or more of the six statements I listed, but that you are reluctant to say so publicly.

Do you accept all six statements as completely accurate?

Marjorie