Wow, jwbot is cool.
All this dork-loving has got me all misty-eyed. I'm a big fan of the dork myself. To me a dork should be laid back enough to laugh at himself and be cool, but also be able to take a strong position and defend it when need be. Kind of a "dork in shining armor," you might say. And you know dorks are going to be honest - hell, what's to lie about? So yeah, I like a funny, honest, down-to-earth, good ol' fashioned dork.
And kudos to joannadandy for making that first observation!
when you were a jw,.
did u feel guilty about throwing out old copies of the watchtower even if you had the yearly bound volumes?
my mom won't do it.
BlackSheep - Yes: http://members.aol.com/beyondjw/orwellian.gif
are we beginning to see that the argument of wether or not we should have gone to war is starting to get a little circular.. there are points to be made on both sides.
in my mind it comes down to wether or not you think that the us should be the policeman for the rest of the world.. i personally still don't think we needed to go to war, even though we did capture saddam, i know, i know, hard to believe.. just think, if i had my way, saddam would still be in power!!!!
is a wmd incarnate.
Lastcall,
Freedom96 - As the leader of a democracy, the President has the obligation to make a strong case for war. There is absolutely no legal precedent allowing the President to arbitrarily wage war on the promise that "We have good reasons - I'll tell them to you later." If he can't make a strong case for war - if indeed he can't convince his own people through a logical discussion - then there is patently no valid reason for the war.
If we live in a land where it facts don't matter and the President can do whatever he wants, then we certainly don't live in a democracy anymore.
SNG
some people left the organization because of the united nations scam, 1975, the "generation" change, child abuse issues, not feeling the "love" of the brotherhood, etc.
in all honesty, is there something----that if it hadn't happened----would have kept you still in?
for example, if the child abuse issues were resolved properly, perhaps, some of those that left because of the mishandling, might still be at the meetings.
Hey Minimus,
I've thought about this one a lot. About whether I was destined to get out at some point, no matter what the particulars turned out to be, or whether there was one critical turning point that I may have missed had events worked out differently.
I think that in my case, seeing the truth was inevitable at some point. I had grappled with strong ideological problems with WT doctrine for a long time. The only thing that kept me in was being so busy. I was working full-time, attending the meetings in English, and helping a foreign language group too. I liked the feeling of being the guy people could count on, so I was happy doing all this scurrying around, but I had little time for quiet thought.
What finally forced the issue for me was a combination of a few different things:
These symptoms were building in me a long time, and finally, events came together to force them to a head. But I think that perhaps my own brain engineered many of these circumstances. I think that this happens with a lot of people. I know people who are not rebellious but who have done things very far out of character and gotten themselves disfellowshipped. I don't think these are accidents. I think that below our conscious mind, there is a mind that knows something needs to be done and sometimes schemes up drastic measures to effect change.
One of the most interesting discussions I've read on how our mind tries to engineer these dramatic events is at a trading website. If you're interested, I encourage you to put disbelief aside and check out this link (the pertinent content starts under the subheading, "Structure of The Mind (A Fred-ian Model)"):
http://www.seykota.com/tribe/TT_Process/
SNG
my mother told me that her bookstudy overseer asked his group this question---"why do you think a mature brother in the truth would just suddenly leave and stop coming to meetings?
any ideas?
" the group gave different opinions and finally he gave what he thought could be the reasons.
I don't think that the elders are necessarily trying to be judgemental - that's just the end result. I think the real factors at play are as follows:
The Witnesses think that they have the absolute truth, and that it is also absolutely rational. You can test this by asking people whether they think it is conceivable that someone might be totally honest and knowledgeable and yet not agree with the WT Society. I've met a few pioneering souls that will admit that it is, but most people accept as unchallengable the idea that it is not possible to dispute with "the Truth."
Therefore, the only conceivable reasons a person would want to leave have to be irrational or immoral: they have too much pride, they want to make a lot of money, they want to have truckloads of sex, they got stumbled by Sister So-and-so's haircut, etc, etc.
It introduces major cognitive dissonance to believe that someone could leave the way of the only true God, and yet do so for conscientious reasons and still be a really great person. If Witnesses were to accept this premise and think about it, they would be headed for the door. Therefore, they have to find something wrong with the person who leaves - anything - in order for their world not to come crashing down around them. In the mind of a Witness, a person cannot be a grade-a, wonderful human and leave the Truth.
In short, I think that they believe those things because they are desperately trying to preserve their belief system. It's a defense mechanism. It angers me at times that they can be so small-minded, but think about the anguish of a mind so shuttered in. I hope more elders see the light some day.
There're my two cents.
SNG
i've already exited the jws in mind and heart, and have read many comments from everyone about the book, so didn't really see the need to buy it for myself.
however, after reading something here on the forum, i decided to order it (and the tao of pooh and siddhartha.
) a super-dub sits two desks away from (she and her husband knew ray and his wife, had tea with them in their room when he was on the gb, etc.
Excellent, ascot!
Let us know what your reactions are as you go through it....
SNG
"After public crotch-scratching was outlawed in late 2003, soccer players resorted to all sorts of unseemly means to satisfy the primal urge."
okay, feel free to skip this message if you don't like long stories.
i'm in a writin' mood, so i thought i'd try my hand at entertaining the readers of the group.. a couple weeks ago i went downtown to check out an exhibit on sustainable technologies.
i was particularly impressed by a computer keyboard manufactured from carrot and celery fibers, using starch as a binder.
Okay, feel free to skip this message if you don't like long stories. I'm in a writin' mood, so I thought I'd try my hand at entertaining the readers of the group.
A couple weeks ago I went downtown to check out an exhibit on sustainable technologies. I was particularly impressed by a computer keyboard manufactured from carrot and celery fibers, using starch as a binder. The electronics could be removed when the keyboard's life had passed, and the housing and keys could be composted! Wonderful!
Feeling good thoughts about the brotherhood of mankind, and thinking optimistically about my own dreams of contributing somehow to a sustainable world, I hummed along into University Station, an underground bus station here in Seattle. Appropriately, I had taken public transit to see the exhibit on sustainable technology. As I entered the main section of the station, I saw two men playing music. It sounded really good - I was especially interested in the tight vocal harmonies and complex progressions. The music seemed to have a mideastern flair to it, and sure enough, I soon noticed a sign greeting "Peace" in various languages, of which Hebrew figured most prominently.
Normally, I would probably pass by without a second thought, but I was in a good mood, and the music was very high caliber. I listened to a couple songs and then made conversation. The leader, Yaakov, beamed to have someone so interested. He asked if he could play one more song, one based on the theme "How pleasant it is for...," he paused, "people...to dwell together in unity." Psalm 133, I correctly recalled.
Although I had lately been very much put off by biblical references, the Psalms seemed mostly harmless [sorry Doug Adams!], and the music was such that I had to think to myself, "Even if the Psalms do not hold great weight to me, how wonderful it is that they can inspire someone such as this to create such music! If they are a means for this person to reach a spiritual plane, then by all means, I applaud them."
After the song, I inquired about an album and learned that one was currently in production. I got Yaakov's email address so that I could contact him about purchasing a CD as soon as they were ready. A few emails and a few weeks later, today, we finally agreed to meet at a bookstore so I could pick up the CD. He was only asking for $10, but said that whatever I could give would be appreciated. I felt compassion for the man and promised to give him $15.
I met Yaakov in the bookstore and eagerly tore open the CD. The border of the book was lined with the seven-armed Jewish candelabra. Curiously, though, the first page inside advertised John 14:6, using the Hebrew name for Jesus, Yeshua. Could this be.... I examined the book with interest and noticed that it was filled with quotations from the New Testament. Most of the names of books and people were in the Hebrew.
"Are you..." - I hestitated, feeling like I could not possibly be wrong, but not wanting to insult him if I were - "a Christian?"
Yaakov revealed that he was, in fact, a Messianic Jew. This was very interesting to me. I had never met a Messianic Jew, even though I had worked in a very diverse territory for over three years. It also disappointed me somewhat. I had been hoping that he was a Jew, because I had read something very interesting only a couple weeks before.
Robert Jastrow's book God and the Astronomers includes an afterward by Professor of Religion Steven T. Katz, who makes this remark:
"Judaism is more an orthopraxis, or religion emphasizing correct behavior, both inner and outer, than an orthodoxy, or religion emphasizing correct beliefs....As a consequence, Judaism permits considerable freedom in the realm of ideas....No systematic attempt has been made over the centuries to define an orthodox cosmology to which every Jew must subscribe." (p. 126)
This fascinated me. I had never conceived of Judaism as a religion allowing such freedom of thought, and it appealed to me very much, even though I certainly had no intention of joining the local synagogue. I had hoped to discuss this with Yaakov.
Although my enthusiasm to speak to him was slightly dampened by the overt Christian preachiness of his lyrics card, I decided to ask him a few questions about his beliefs, honestly telling him that I was agnostic in my own personal views and that my interest was purely academic. What I did not expect was an hour-long discourse on his very JW-esque doctrine.
I tried to stay interested by noting the similarities and differences with WT doctrine, but his closed-mindedness shone through so brilliantly that it turned my stomach on several occasions. He had the same high-mindedness, that dismissiveness of all things not me, that characterizes so many religions. I several times offered a moderate view: Wasn't it possible that another reading also made sense here? But Yaakov was not to be taken by such New Age rhetoric. With a steady stream of scripture that danced about in those favorite books of Daniel, Elijah, and Revelation, sprinkling in some Matthew 24 for a slight Jesus flavor, Yaakov made the case for the future of the state of Israel, the nearness of Armageddon ("I can already see things coming together!"), and the true meaning of the transfiguration.
By the time I left, I had the sickening feeling that my newly acquired CD was not going to be all I had hoped. Sure enough, it was the Messianic Jewish version of Sing Praises to Jehovah. It even included a bonus track of Yaakov reading a passage from Acts in a very dramatic tone. Alas for the night! My dollars were wasted!
If nothing else, though, the experience was good in that it allowed me to see how the phenomenon we all know through the Witnesses is not limited to them. It would seem that there are many, many people who are similarly dead-certain of almost exactly the same things, but who would be able to quibble for hours over the mindless details. I'm always struck by an image of two midgets, locked in mortal combat, deftly defending themselves from the blows of the other, neither realizing that they both look absurd.
Perhaps my dollars were not spent in vain. If this story has made you smile or brought an interesting point to mind, let me know. I'd like to know it was productive at least in some small way! :)
SNG
if you were given the choice to either be an expert in one specific area and not pursue anything else....or be able to do quite a few different things pretty well but excel in none what would you choose?
this is a question im trying to come to terms with at the moment.
i find joy in a great many activities..... i take care of my family of four meanwhile -im an artist( mostly painting and sculpting)-hot rod and custom bike mechanic/machinist- i write music-am a carpenter for hire- computer building(nerd)-at my job im a chemist and systems mechanic- im also a shade tree inventor-if it breaks i can fix it ...and all of my friends and family know that im there for them when they need me.
Heya, NewWorldSlacker!
I think I can identify with you. I've always told people that at any one time, I'm playing with three more interests than it is possible to juggle. I kind of like that - I like having twelve different books on my desk with bookmarks indicating various stages of progress - but at the same time, I sometimes feel like I would do far better to choose a couple to focus on more intently.
Where I am now is, I don't think you really have to choose one or the other. I think you can choose one or two interests to delve into more deeply, and still do the shallow interests. You just have to do the shallow ones a little more shallowly. Maybe cut out a couple of the really fringe ones.
I will tell you that the most fulfilling and exciting time of my life was when I lived in Japan. I studied the language with a zeal that could only be called maniacal. After I got into the swing of it, I could work on it for 13, 14 hours a day. The blistering progress you can see when you attack something like that is pretty rewarding. Come to think of it, I'd really like to do something like that again.
So maybe I'd suggest doing an experiment: pick one interest and devote ungodly amounts of time to it for a month or two. See how you like it. Maybe all of this is actually my subconscious trying to talk to myself....
Anyway, those are my two cents.
SNG
my "jw" family came down for the "thanksgiving" holiday.
my mom & sister - my sisters family - my full time pioneer niece (17 years old).
we were sitting around playing cards and my niece was writing letters inbetween deals.
Geez, the absurd ways people would come up with to get their hours always blew me away. Here are my favorite methods:
You know, it's funny, even in my most loyal Witness days, I always wondered what the effect of Star Trek-style teleportation would be on service. I actually remember thinking, "Geez, that would seriously suck. It'd be so hard to get any real time in!"
