Sorry, it was an obvious generalization based on a few posts. I'm sure you don't always do that.
Posts by amac
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38JW Sexual Predator Being Released to San Francisco Area
by blondie inwww.sfgate.com return to regular view.
judge oks release of sexual predator .
convict praised for progress in therapy .
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182
Watchtower to pay for Silentlambs trip
by Dogpatch infrom silentlambs (bill bowen):.
on thursday of this week world wide work money will again be spent to protect a pedophile.
in addition it will also be spent to pay money to a disfellowshipped person in order to find a way to prevent them from assisting the court case of abuse survivors.
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amac
So the non-conscripted infantryman sent to battle by an irresponsible General and who subsequently dies, is as responsible for his death as the General who sent him?
In the grand scheme of things, yes. If he signed up with the knowledge that he may die in warfare, he made a responsible decision to take that risk. And your analogy is a little different than the real case. I am far from one to defend DFing but it does not quite compare to jail time that a soldier would face for disobeying. So I would say that a JW has more choice than a non-conscripted soldier.
A soldier believes in his country, he looks to his Generals to intepret those beliefs into a constructive plan for its defense. When the General fails his men, he is culpable.
Have there been any civil lawsuits against General's for the wrongful death of their soldiers? (not criminal charges mind you) I really don't know, but if not that says a bit about how culpable they are. If there have been, than just pretend I never brought it into the discussion.
Would you not agree that these elders held a powerful authority over the decisions that this women made?
I agree.
If so, do you accept that the exercise of this authority led to these children being harmed?
I agree.
If so, do you believe that this damage can be waived as the elders shared the same core beliefs in God as the mother?
The damage cannot be waived. But I do think the responsibility is shared by the mother since she VOLUNTARILY submitted to their authority. I only view their authority as giving them spiritual control, anything beyond that is the responsibility of the individual since they voluntarily submit to the authority. -
38
JW Sexual Predator Being Released to San Francisco Area
by blondie inwww.sfgate.com return to regular view.
judge oks release of sexual predator .
convict praised for progress in therapy .
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amac
Amac: That is interesting but not the norm.
According to what study?
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182
Watchtower to pay for Silentlambs trip
by Dogpatch infrom silentlambs (bill bowen):.
on thursday of this week world wide work money will again be spent to protect a pedophile.
in addition it will also be spent to pay money to a disfellowshipped person in order to find a way to prevent them from assisting the court case of abuse survivors.
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amac
The mother is able to claim that she had no choice in the matter and that she was obeying her elders instructions, the elders presumably would try to make a similar claim, that is that they were just obeying the tenets of their faith. Even if this were true, they bear by far the greater responsibility in the matter, due to the position of authority they accepted in this case. Surely you can see that?
No I guess I can't, sorry. The mother and the elders held the same set of beliefs. They both believed it was directed by God. They both held to the tenets, despite the harm it caused to the Berry girls. I see no difference in responsibility. They all put their belief system ahead of the well being of the girls, in my mind, the ranking and pecking order is irrelevant.
If my religion tells me that it is OK for my wife to poke our kids in the eye once a day and I go along with it, even to the point of asking the elders of my religion and they concur to let it happen, I'm still the responsible one. My wife and I are directly responsible for what happens to my children.
I agree that the elders would be wrong for telling people it's OK to poke your kid in the eye, but no more wrong than me as a parent for listening to them. (Not to make light of the situation, but to use a less graphic example.)
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182
Watchtower to pay for Silentlambs trip
by Dogpatch infrom silentlambs (bill bowen):.
on thursday of this week world wide work money will again be spent to protect a pedophile.
in addition it will also be spent to pay money to a disfellowshipped person in order to find a way to prevent them from assisting the court case of abuse survivors.
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amac
Yes, I believe they were privy to some knowledge that freed them from the same belief system as the mother. They were in a position of authority over the mother and instructed her to return home with her husband and her poor little girls. She obeyed, because they were in a position of authority over her and could subsequently do her harm.
With all due respect, I do not see how their position of authority gave them any knowledge that FREED them from the same belief system. The mother obviously believed that she needed to listen to the elders, the elder no doubt believed that they needed to listen to the GB, the GB no doubt feel they need to listen to God, and who knows what God feels about it. They are all part of the same belief system, and the originators of this system, unless it can be proven otherwise, believe their system comes from God. So it should be God that is sued.
even to the point of ignoring at times, the WTS own instructions.
This I wasn't aware of. If it can be proven that they ignored WT instructions and tried to protect Berry because he was a friend or something like that, than it is a different matter.
But if the GB told them not to report because they didn't think God wanted them to, and then the elders told the mother not to report because they think God wants them to listen to the GB, and then the mother didn't report because she thought God wants her to listen to the elders, than I would say they are all equally reponsible for putting their belief system ahead of the physical well being of the girls.
The civil case deals with who, if anybody, bears the responsibility for allowing this tragedy to happen. The mother is not cited, the elders and the WTS are.
And that is what I have issue with. -
38
JW Sexual Predator Being Released to San Francisco Area
by blondie inwww.sfgate.com return to regular view.
judge oks release of sexual predator .
convict praised for progress in therapy .
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amac
He is a pedophile that will be allowed free reign in ANY congregation and if anyone complains they will be the one "talked to" for gossiping.
That is plain just not true Sheila. Although it has happened in some congregations, it will not happen in "ANY" congregation. The one I was in had a brother facing charges (still pending) and the elders had no problem telling others what was going on. -
182
Watchtower to pay for Silentlambs trip
by Dogpatch infrom silentlambs (bill bowen):.
on thursday of this week world wide work money will again be spent to protect a pedophile.
in addition it will also be spent to pay money to a disfellowshipped person in order to find a way to prevent them from assisting the court case of abuse survivors.
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amac
The elders, as I understand it, were in a jurisdiction at the time that required them by law to report third party knowledge of such heinous crimes to the Police and did not do so, resulting in further injury to these young girls. They must pay for this tragedy, as any ethical person would be pleased to do.
Yes, but don't those same laws bind the mother to reporting the incident? If the elders are made to pay, should she not have to? Were they privy to some knowledge that freed them from the same belief system as the mother?
The courts sentenced the animal who defiled these young girls, but not the mother, and no charges are pending against the mother. This speaks volumes.
If I understand this case correctly, there are no criminal charges pending against the elders either. I was under the impression this is a civil case being pressed by the Berry girls.
If these young women win this case and the WTS is forced to make financial reparation, an admission of guilt by implication it will sound a warning note to all high-control religions that they do not own their adherents as ‘Christ’s belongings’, but are free moral agents and that people trample on these rights at their own peril.
This would be a definite plus to a ruling in the girls favor.
If the girls choose to spend any cash that might come their way on candy and fast cars, that is not for us to moralize about and has little to do with the issue.
Agreed. I didn't mean to make it seem as though that is part of this issue. -
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What are the specs of your computer?
by JH inso many threads on pictures, and desktops, how about telling us a few specs of your computer.
my computer is 3.5 years old.
-20 gig hard disc "maxtor".
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amac
It's a bit old now, but it works purty good:
AMD Athlon 1.2 Ghz
512MB
NVidia GeForce4 Ti 4600
40 GB HD
DVDplayer/CD Burner
Sony 19" Flat Screen Monitor
and some cool Sony active speakers with a subwoofer.
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38
JW Sexual Predator Being Released to San Francisco Area
by blondie inwww.sfgate.com return to regular view.
judge oks release of sexual predator .
convict praised for progress in therapy .
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amac
You must think that these"experts" always or most of the time make the right decision?
No not really. But I don't have the time or energy to gain enough knowledge to refute them.
I think if I had to make a choice, mine would be close to Francois' (despite his tendency to pin everything as either left or right.) I'd probably say lock them up with the general population in prison and let them fend for themselves.
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182
Watchtower to pay for Silentlambs trip
by Dogpatch infrom silentlambs (bill bowen):.
on thursday of this week world wide work money will again be spent to protect a pedophile.
in addition it will also be spent to pay money to a disfellowshipped person in order to find a way to prevent them from assisting the court case of abuse survivors.
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amac
Last time I checked its NOT your call seeing you have not been harmed. Its up to the victim.
Obviously, henceforth my previous comment that I hope they use the money wisely, if it is an open and close case as you have suggested.
But remember the Court has already ruled that whether the mother did or did not report, the elders also have a common law duty to report. And if they don't report, they can be liable just like anyone else for not reporting any problem that happened after they become aware of the occurrence.
Agreed. But are they more liable than the mother? Again the personal responsibilty stops somewhere. She can blame the elders for the decisions she made, based on the Stockholm syndrome. An extension of the argument would be that the elders also suffered the Stockholm syndrome from the GB at the WT, so it was the GB's fault. The GB could say they suffered the Stockhom syndrome from God because they didn't want to fall out of his favor and lose everlasting life. Where does the responsibility end?
Don't get me wrong, I'm not blaming the mother for this. I'm only stating my disagreement with going after the WT, but not their mother who I would think is equally responsible.
But as you said it is not my decision. Those girls seem to have been through a lot and I can only hope they find some form of healing.