Posts by Globetrotter

30

Home school

by Globetrotter in

my son told me the other day that he and his sister are just about the only kids at the kh their age that go to public/private schools.

almost all the other kids are home-schooled.

i was rather shocked.

Outstanding. My business partner thinks I have a biased view against homeschooling. I may have, only because of the limited contact I have had with it. I am very happy to see it done successfully and for the right reasons.

102

Witness World Response to Apostates

by DevonMcBride in

jw
friends

below is what was posted on witness world by polly pan.

i took euphemism's advice and others to protect my identity.

about a week ago it was brought to administrations attention that there may be apostates lurking on our board, as a precautionary measure we deleted 107 members who had never posted since they joined.

Globetrotter

Why aren't they open to debate? Why can't they think for themselves? Why must they be intellectually dishonest? Why do they block access to their site? Why do they delete suspect members? Why is someone suspect?

Why??

Why??

WHY???!!!

113

Witnesses coming Saturday... I need HELP!!!!

by Globetrotter in

i got into a rather heated discussion this morning with my unbaptised but raised jehovah's witness wife.

we discussed so many things: feb 1 watchtower article on 607 and 1914, the un, beth sarim, blood, god's mouthpiece here on earth, etc.

this was yet another attempt on my part to try to plant a seed of doubt.

Globetrotter

Gary, I wonder if indeed they are doing that, if you are being facetious, or if you are being over zealous. I don't know you well enough yet. Is it possible that they left, felt like they were ambushed, and chose to ignore the UN stuff, never to give it another thought?

I wonder what their conversation was like in the car?

30

Home school

by Globetrotter in

my son told me the other day that he and his sister are just about the only kids at the kh their age that go to public/private schools.

almost all the other kids are home-schooled.

i was rather shocked.

Globetrotter

My wife has a brother who left the truth years ago because of the hypocracy. His wife says at home and schools their daughter. I'm appalled. She has the social graces of a pig, the education of a gnat, and the sense god gave a styrofoam cup. Their daughter is turning our the same way. All she can talk about is the wicked system of things. It's a travesty to do that to a child.

48

the latest discussion between the wife & I

by Winston Smith :>D in

jw
friends

.

edited to keep private in case is ever read in future by wife who escaped the borg .

pm me if interested in offering advice.

Globetrotter

bebu,

SheliaM got it right:

I remember a sister confiding in me in a nutshell she was spewing cause her husband wanted a NORMAL sex life, you know lingere, oral sex.She acted as if he was a MONSTEr for wanting these things. I put my butt on the line and told her AND......What is he doing wrong?

Acquiescence to "suffer" is not the answer. He will be miserable. You were also right in pointing out that people change. The problem is that the organization gets too deep into the personal lives and issues of people, and they are not allowed to grow together as a couple (not in the sense of permission, but rather growth is stifled, not realized) Sex is part of that growth, and should only get better. NOTHING gets better if both people are on automatic all their lives... and that's no way to live.

30

Home school

by Globetrotter in

my son told me the other day that he and his sister are just about the only kids at the kh their age that go to public/private schools.

almost all the other kids are home-schooled.

i was rather shocked.

Globetrotter

My son told me the other day that he and his sister are just about the only kids at the KH their age that go to public/private schools. Almost all the other kids are home-schooled. I was rather shocked. I'm not knocking home schooling. I guess if the parents are pretty bright, and they make sure the children have good social interaction to develop social skills, it's OK.

So I have several questions regarding this...

- Is this common among JW, and what do you think about it?

- If it is common, is there overt pressure to do so?

- Did anyone on this board homeschool their children whilst being a witness?

- Was anyone here homeschooled as a result of witness upbringing? If so, (and if you will share) do you feel you received less, or more, of an educatoin than your contemporaries?

Of course the obvious concerns are how much more control this allows the society, more indoctrination, little or no chance for leading a normal life, tunnelvision, etc.

113

Witnesses coming Saturday... I need HELP!!!!

by Globetrotter in

i got into a rather heated discussion this morning with my unbaptised but raised jehovah's witness wife.

we discussed so many things: feb 1 watchtower article on 607 and 1914, the un, beth sarim, blood, god's mouthpiece here on earth, etc.

this was yet another attempt on my part to try to plant a seed of doubt.

Globetrotter

I'm back. Two things deleayed my response. 1) My daughter was up most of the early morning hours with an earache and I took her to the doctor as soon as they opened at 1:00, and 2) my keyboard died! I replaced it this afternoon with a wireless, but I was accustomed to the Elite style (split left and right hands) and now I am having an incredibly difficult time typing. All the keys are much closer together. I may take it back and spring the extra $30 for the Micro$oft version, but $100 for a keyboard (and rodent) doesn't sit well with me.

I really don't have much to report just yet. I'm hoping it just takes a little while to sink in. While I am hopeful, I'm not foolish enough to bank on it. I don't think the UN thing bothered my wife very much at all. She said that we will have to wait to see "what the brothers say" when they come back. Her postion on everything is that all of the witness teachings are biblical. The JWs are the only ones that teach what the bible says. I told her that I thought it was clearly demonstrated that the witnesses' claim to the truth is only based on their claim to the truth. If all that was taught by the witnesses was the bible story, the kingdom and paradise earth, it would be no big deal. But their invisible return of christ and appointment of the JWs as god's organization on earth gives them free reign to say anything they want in the name of the truth that cannot be proven. That alone should raise a red flag. That nothing is open for discussion should raise a red flag. My son pointed out that if the next WT said that it would be wise for good christians not to venture out after dark, the society would find some scripture to support the statement, people would suddenly follow it, and say "See - it's bible based. We teach only the bible." (good boy!) I reiterated that being told what to think by an organization, and blindly following it without question, is not healthy. I also reiterated that the best I could hope for (or the only thing that I could reasonably expect) is for her to think for herself, and not accept everything the society says as "bible based" just because they found a verse of scripture they claim as support for what they say.

I had a chance to talk to each of the kids privately. My son already gets it. Reading a lot of Michio Kaku (theoretical physics) probably helped. Plus he's pretty bright (accelerated program in all subjects). (I had to brag a little). My daughter didn't understand all the questions I asked, so today I went through my reasoning, the questions, the answers and the obvious conclusions. I told her that if I said anything different from what she remembered from yesterday, to stop me. Though she will only be 12 in a week, everything was clear to her after going through it again with me. (She's in the accelerated program too) Plus, she told me that though she knew about the 144K, she had never heard of the 12 tribes of Israel or the bit about the men having not been with women. When we got home, she checked it out for herself, and got her own wheels turning.

I at least proved to all of them that I'm not full of $hit. I may not know the bible very well (and have often wondered how long it takes a JW to learn to jump around prooftexting any issue that comes up), but I did prove that I'm not lying about the organization.That my wife still said that we will have to wait for what the brothers say, coupled with the infallable bible based teaching postion, does not give me much hope at all that this excercise was good for her. I almost believe that a different scenario is more plausible: A small trace of hope flashed through my mind earlier today ... maybe the younger brother will think about the UN thing long enough, decide to leave and thank me. Wishful thinking on my part, I'm sure.

113

Witnesses coming Saturday... I need HELP!!!!

by Globetrotter in

i got into a rather heated discussion this morning with my unbaptised but raised jehovah's witness wife.

we discussed so many things: feb 1 watchtower article on 607 and 1914, the un, beth sarim, blood, god's mouthpiece here on earth, etc.

this was yet another attempt on my part to try to plant a seed of doubt.

Globetrotter

The older one did tell me that they were not infallible and on occasion did make mistakes, but they were corrected.

Time was running short. Once we got started the discussion lasted about 70 minutes, and the older gentleman had a building committee meeting to go to. I told them I had two last quick points to bring up before they left, and that we could talk about them next time. (In fact when we first started, I told them I had some specific things that I wanted to get on the table today and if time were running short, I would at least inform them of what they were, just so it didn?t look like ?Hey, and what about this, and what about that?.)

I asked about the YMCA. Could I join to use the gym? The answer was ?NO?, however if I paid for services as I go, that wasn?t the same as a membership. If I had a clear conscience about a pay as you go, if there were no Gold?s Gym around, then it would be OK. A membership however implies support of the organization and the JW just couldn?t really condone that.. (wowwww I thought) OK. THANK YOU.

Next came the image of the beast. I mentioned that I heard a KH talk about 4-5 years ago, the subject was something like Why We Can Believe the Bible. In that talk, several things were discussed in some detail, like archeological evidence, etc, but there was a short list that was blitzed through A,B,C,?The speaker, in going down the list said something like ?Oh, and of course we all know that the United Nations, formerly the League of Nations is one of the beasts referred to in Revelation?. I told these guys this morning I found that to be amazing. Do they believe that? The older one said ?AH, now were getting into some good stuff!? He was genuinely excited. I thought for a fleeting moment, he was ready for my next move. He wasn?t. We all agreed that the JW vehemently opposes the UN. I even had printed the section from the 1963 Resolution off the CD, and we read it together. It blasts the UN. Everyone was in agreement.

Then I asked how for 10 years the WTBTS could be a NGO member of the UN. ?HUH?!!?? I said, yes, the UN. I apologized for getting information from the internet, because I know there are apostate lies out there, but everything I showed them was official. I showed them the letter from the UN indicating the 1991 application and 1992 approval of NGO status. The same letter states what NGOs are obligated to do. The letter also confirms the WTBTS withdrew their membership in 2001, so indeed, they are no longer a member. I also showed the copy of the Branch Committee letter issued by the society, talking about the membership, UN library access, and subsequent withdrawal from the UN. Then I showed them straight from the UN website the list of support publications various NGOs had submitted to the UN in partial fulfillment of their membership requirements. There was listed an Awake! Article, which I had printed from the CD. It extolled the virtues of the UN. This was all news to them both, and my wife believes that at least the older one, if not both of them, holds some position at the KH. I actually felt kind of bad.

In response to the Awake article, he said that no one would deny that certain parts of the UN have done good things for people around the world. I said sure! And no one would deny that advances in medicine have occurred due to the witnesses? stance on blood! I went on to say that, look, if this is true, it would disturb me. They were vehemently opposing the UN from the pulpit at the same time they were members, supporting the UN. If the society says I can?t have a YMCA membership just to use the gym, I surely cannot reconcile how they for 10 years could be officially associated with one of the beasts in Revelation just for a library card. Can you see that???? They both answered yes and asked if they could take the stuff with them. I said sure, absolutely.

At that point, we were running over time. They were not in great hurry to leave after I dropped the UN on them. I believe they seemed genuinely disturbed. We said our goodbyes and they left. I wonder if their eyes glazed back over when they got in the car, or if they are still awake right now. They both seem to be pretty good people. I?m kinda pulling for them. That?s all I can write tonight. I?m wasted. I?ll give you my wife?s reactions tomorrow.

113

Witnesses coming Saturday... I need HELP!!!!

by Globetrotter in

i got into a rather heated discussion this morning with my unbaptised but raised jehovah's witness wife.

we discussed so many things: feb 1 watchtower article on 607 and 1914, the un, beth sarim, blood, god's mouthpiece here on earth, etc.

this was yet another attempt on my part to try to plant a seed of doubt.

Globetrotter

I didn?t belabor the points, though. Having established a bible story, a purpose, sin, the ransom, the fact that JWs are different, heaven, paradise earth and who will live where, we have arrived at the anointed. Good.

How do the anointed 144K know they are anointed? The holy spirit. OK. Stop.

Now I wanted to know how the JW know they are the truth. They started to tell me about Jehovah?s name, but I told them that was a non-starter for me, plus my kids don?t call me by my first name. I wanted to get a little deeper than that and had to draw it out of them. I prefaced my remarks by saying that I know historically they have come under a lot of fire regarding date setting and the like, and that was not where I was going. But that I did understand that Jesus examined all the religions on the earth from about 1914-1918 and decided that the JW (?what were they called then??, I asked ? ?International Bible Students. They didn?t officially take the JW name until 1935, but it is OK to refer to them as witnesses.? Fine.)?that the JW were the only ones on the planet practicing pure/true worship. ?YES?. And that the JWs were chosen as the faithful and discreet slave, god?s organization on this earth. ?YES?.

OK, so if I understand correctly, an individual must be a baptized JW in order to have either the heavenly or the earthly hope. ?YES? There are some 8,000 living JW that are anointed? ?YES?. Jehovah using the holy spirit then communicates to his people here on Earth through the anointed, and the anointed interpret the bible and set policy for the flock. ?YES?

This segued nicely into how all of JWs worldwide are united in worship. So I asked if it was possible for an individual to deviate from what was taught if that person disagreed. This evoked a little discussion, but the bottom line was someone can certainly disagree with a teaching as long as he doesn?t cause trouble or actively promote his point of view. I wanted it made clear that the rank and file congregation member is not allowed to openly debate policy at the KH nor at Shoney?s after the meeting with a few friends. This was confirmed. One may certainly ask a question by writing a letter to NY, and they will have someone come talk to you to explain their position. This does not sound like the ability to openly question and debate. And so I said, that one must believe everything that is taught by the Society. It?s an all or nothing deal. Heads nodded and finally the word was uttered: ?YES?. OK.

113

Witnesses coming Saturday... I need HELP!!!!

by Globetrotter in

i got into a rather heated discussion this morning with my unbaptised but raised jehovah's witness wife.

we discussed so many things: feb 1 watchtower article on 607 and 1914, the un, beth sarim, blood, god's mouthpiece here on earth, etc.

this was yet another attempt on my part to try to plant a seed of doubt.

Globetrotter

Hi all. Man, things move fast on this board! I had to go back several pages to find this. A couple of people indicated that this thread should be required reading for any non-witness considering romantic involvement with a witness. Having seen other people in similar circumstances, and the outpouring of help and understanding, I certainly agree. So rather than start a new thread, I decided to take up where I left off.

First, let me thank everyone for all their suggestions and advice. Much of it was put to good use..Yes, the two witnesses came to the house this morning - one younger (my age) and one a bit older. My wife was there, as were my two children. Since my family and I have talked about so many different JW issues in the past, I asked them earlier this morning if they would please let me lead the conversation, that I had a number of specific points I wanted to cover. They agreed. So anyway, after introductions (I had met these two guys before) and 15-20 minutes of pleasantries, we got down to business.

I wanted to start from the beginning, to establish some very simple baselines. I did this for the benefit of my wife (even though this morning before they came, she told my daughter that the only reason she asked these people over was so I could see the truth about the witnesses and then back off). There is much that she claims just isn't so, yet she refuses to "do the math" so to speak. (so, we'll just all do the math together). The first thing I asked them to do is explain what the main message is that the witnesses preach. The answer? "The kingdom". Well, no surprises there. OK. Moving on, we went through the perfect man in god's image Adam bit, the naked lady talking to the snake, sin being introduced into the world, another perfect life (Jesus) being sacrificed in order to put things back on track for gods purpose, "god had and continues to have, a purpose, and god doesn't lie does he?" ( I deliberately wanted to go through this entire bit specifically to see if I would hear that line, the same line told to me by another witness the first time all this was explained to me. I wasn't left wanting. This confirmed two things to me - a) that this is a canned oration repeated by many, and b) I may be able to use such a meaningful line to my own advantage sometime in future discussions.)

Next we talked very briefly about other religions. I just knew it was going to happened and in fact was counting on it to come up at this point in the discussion. I wanted them to establish the fact that JWs were different - different from the "Jesus Saves" bumper sticker Baptists so common in the bible belt here in the south, and different from the "everyone dies and goes to heaven" Catholicism in which I was raised. That of course led into the "well, who goes to heaven?" thing, so I listened while they explained to me the 144K anointed class, and the slave class, the resurrected and those who survive Armageddon.

I have to say that here I just couldn't keep quiet and had to interject that the 144,000 were 12K from the 12 tribes of Israel and men who had not defiled themselves with women (or however your favorite flavor of the bible reads). Hehe, I was immediately referred to the first chapter and verse of Revelation and reminded that it speaks of symbolism and imagery. I agreed that indeed multiple headed beasts with a eleventy-seven bizzilion eyes and mystic numbers (666 referring the number of a man) were absolutely clear evidence of imagery and symbolism, but I also indicated that John was very clear and not ambiguous about the names of the tribes, nor the number. And for that matter, if the names of the tribes were insignificant, seeing that the WTBS now represents spiritual Israel, why couldn't the numbers 12K and 144K also be symbolic?