Hello Dan
Actually I had a similar conversation this past week on this. It's kind of confusing but according to my parents, it's not disfellowshiping per say, (you can choke now), it's a matter of conscience. (I am choking now). Here is how it works:
You can accept blood then beg for forgiveness. You heard it, I can't believe it either.
In my mind if it is a matter of personal conscience then begging forgiveness and repenting is not required. While it wasn't discussed I think this is a way for the publisher to have a "weak moment" and accept blood, while not being disfellowshipped. It's a great out. (It also legally takes the blame off of the WT.)
Then again since she didn't know about accepting blood fractions (which is a conscience matter) without begging forgiveness, I am not quite sure the average publisher knows exactly what is allowed.
Jahna
Posts by Jahna
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13Jehovah's Witness loses fight to reject blood transfusion (CANADA)
by ezekiel3 inhttp://news.scotsman.com/international.cfm?id=481072005
jehovah's witness loses fight to reject blood transfusion
brad hunter .
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Jahna
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35
How far back are j.w.'s allowed to research the w.t. doctrine?
by hubert in's research russel's and rutherford's teachings once they are baptized?
if not, where in their material does it instruct them not to?
how far back are they "allowed" to research?
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Jahna
Further to Blondie's comment, just this week, I accidentally mentioned Russell's vaccine comments to my mother. Well after looking shocked, and critical, she asked where I got that. I told her from the WT publication. She then asked where I got it as "you know on the Internet there are apostate renditions of them. You do know what an apostate is don't you." (Can I begin to roll my eyes now?) So I guess the official dogma is, don't try and obtain "older" books off of Ebay or any place else, they come from apostates.
Does that kind of limit how far back you can go? It's also quite convenient for the WT to ban obtaining books this way, that makes them near impossible for Joe Publisher to get their hand on them and check for themselves the information. I would think doubting Joe Publisher would be more inclined to look at older issues of the WT publications then for instance any other "apostate" book. Makes you wonder, if the WT really wants publishers to actually research their own history, or just rely on their interpretation of it?
Naa don't bother answering that one, we know the answer already.
On a side note, she also didn't know about accepting blood fractions. Go figure.
Jahna -
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Dutch Reform and unvaccinated
by Jahna inin southern ontario canada at the moment there is an outbreak of german measles, mostly among a sect of christian who for religious reasons refuse vaccines.
currently there are over 120 people with the measles, most of which are children.
there is now evidence of one man who has been vaccinated catching the illness.
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Jahna
Hello crumpet
From the Dutch Reform that I know, not really. The majority that I know live in the boon docks, on farms.
You should be just fine visiting our lovely country and province. Enjoy yourself.
Jahna -
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Dutch Reform and unvaccinated
by Jahna inin southern ontario canada at the moment there is an outbreak of german measles, mostly among a sect of christian who for religious reasons refuse vaccines.
currently there are over 120 people with the measles, most of which are children.
there is now evidence of one man who has been vaccinated catching the illness.
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Jahna
Hello Crumpet
The area is in South Western Ontario. West of Hamilton and pretty much east of London.
According to my doctor, the only real concern is for women of child bearing age, as it can kill the fetus in the first 20 weeks of pregnancy or, cause birth defects. There can be complications for those who do get the illness. I myself had the German Measles and it wasn't that bad. You can get a vaccination before you visit Canada, if your concerned, but test for pregnacy before hand! They won't give it to you if you are. In some cases, like my own, the vaccine can wear off (or even if you had the Measles), testing for this for pregnant women is common and they will re vaccinate after the baby is born.
While many parent won't vacinate because of fears, the Dutch Reform Church forbids vaccines because of relgious grounds, simular to the blood ban with JW's and yes, the former ban on vaccines in years gone by.
Jahna -
9
Dutch Reform and unvaccinated
by Jahna inin southern ontario canada at the moment there is an outbreak of german measles, mostly among a sect of christian who for religious reasons refuse vaccines.
currently there are over 120 people with the measles, most of which are children.
there is now evidence of one man who has been vaccinated catching the illness.
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Jahna
In Southern Ontario Canada at the moment there is an outbreak of German Measles, mostly among a sect of Christian who for religious reasons refuse vaccines. Currently there are over 120 people with the Measles, most of which are children. There is now evidence of one man who has been vaccinated catching the illness. In the schools where this outbreak is prevalent approximately 60% of the students are Dutch Reform and unvaccinated.
In light of the recent discussion regarding blood and children, could the courts or even ourselves take a similar view regarding vaccines as blood? While yes, for the most part serious illness is resulting from getting the German Measles for instance is rare, it is extremely hazardous to the unborn, and can result in even death in children and adults (because of complications.) We can even argue in some cases quite similar risk factors exist in many cases involving blood (where alternative treatment is possible).
Jahna -
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Cultural Aspects of Spanking--Countries Other than US
by blondie inculturally, i wonder how spanking plays out.. canada.
mexico.
uk.
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Jahna
Here is just one glimpse into the controversy of spanking in Canada.
A Mennonite family in Ontario had their children removed from their care because of the spare the rod idea. It made many headlines for quite some time.
http://www.christianity.ca/family/parenting/2003/08.001.html
Jahna -
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B.C. Jehovah's Witness family seen in Toronto
by Quotes in(my apologies if this has already been mentioned, i looked around and didn't see it).
jehovah's witness family seen in toronto.
jehovah's witness girl who's fighting a blood transfusion order will appear in an ontario court on tuesday.
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Jahna
?They said from the platform that the doctors, out of spite, deliberately killed the baby by pumping in much more blood than the body could hold, so that blood was pouring out of the child's eyes, ears, etc.?
I either know the family or a family in a very similar situation. Other treatment was available for this baby, they transferred hospitals to receive this other treatment, but instead was transfused BEFORE the court issued the order. As far as I do know, the baby was bleeding from the eyes, etc. Was it deliberate, I don?t think so. Was it unfounded, I do think so. Should it have been done, I don?t think so I believe the hospital should have tried the alternative treatment first, which is why they went from a local hospital to a reputed children?s hospital to begin with. Attending the funeral of such a young child with two very loving parents is extremely heart breaking and unnecessary.
While I am no longer anti transfusion, personally I would still opt for any alternative treatment available, for health reasons. I believe yes there are risks, but then again there are still risks involved with transfusions. Also, not all doctors are created equal, or institutions. I truly wonder about how much we really need compared to what the real need is (blood wise or anything else). I myself was told I had to, I didn?t and here I am. Would I do it again, I might, I think I got better care (surgery to stop the bleeding quicker) then if they could just add a pint or two and see if it stops.
Should they have used such a tragic event on the platform, a resounding NO! Just reading it again here, today, brings back looking into the eyes of the parents. God knows what it does to them.
Jahna -
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Who Was Shocked By the Watchtower UN NGO Scandal?
by AlanF in.
i'd like to get comments from people about whether and how much they were shocked, surprised, or otherwise bothered by the watchtower society's becoming an associated non-governmental organization (ngo).. note that i'd like to see these comments because they might lead to some interesting publicity, so please comment accordingly.. alanf
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Jahna
About a year before I found out about the NGO issue, I stumbled across the pedophile story on TV. While I was ?out? for several years, I always felt it was the ?truth?. I still believed Armageddon was coming ?shortly?. I left because I felt unworthy. The TV program shocked me, didn?t much surprise me as there were rumors around during my stint. It hit close to home though when one of the boys mentioned on TV was well known to my sister. I soon forgot about it and continued to believe in the back of my mind.
About a year or so later, I stumbled by pure accident on the NGO story. (Could have been on this website). I hadn?t ever researched anything on JW?s before, in fact, I was googling bible scriptures because I lost my own bible and needed a scripture for something I was writing.
Being me I had to verify the story (you know it may have been apostate), so I pursued every link I could, and even ?borrowed? my parents Watchtower CD (they don?t know) to verify Watchtower material. I looked up everything for days, weeks, still. I am/was stunned, there is still a part of me that says ?this aint so, it?s blown out of purportion? yet, I have to believe it as I have seen the information with my own eyes.
You don?t know how many times I want to print everything out, including the letter from the UN and show it to my parents (still strongly in). I am tempted to print it out for the next time a JW comes calling and question them. It is with such anger I want to shout out this truth, but I keep it in. Why, family peace.
This information lead me to looking up more and more, reading Raymond Franz?s books and starting to feel more worthy about myself. I don?t consider myself apostate, because if it is the truth, then there is nothing apostate about my opinions. The JW?s pride themselves with truth, if they only knew how untruthful there mother organization has been, maybe they will wonder about ?what is truth and how do I really obtain it.?
Because of this information and other interesting tidbits, I tend to highly avoid anything to do with religion as a whole. I tend to not want to discuss anything with my parents (should have seen how red my tongue was after a recent funeral at a Kingdom Hall). Since I have no one to vent to, my husband does his best to understand (he was never a JW just had family in) but it doesn?t help. No one can truly understand the depth of this type of gross breech in trust this type of issue causes. This type of breech in trust is similar to finding out after all of these years, your most fundamental belief system is wrong. Day isn?t night, and night isn?t day, you have been wrong all along, and looked the fool to boot.
Jahna -
29
Assemblies suck
by Nosferatu indidn't it drive you up the wall how, after a long week of working or going to school, you had to spend your entire weekend at an assembly?
the saturday and sunday that you could've spent catching up on some yard work, or even relaxing was wasted away by sitting in a bunch of chairs, listening to stuff you've heard many times before.. i know this used to drive me up the wall.
it felt like i had absolutely no time to myself during these weekends.
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Jahna
Ahh the joy of spending quality family time sitting on our butts for 1 - 3 days. As a parent of young children nothing can compare to the joy of getting up at the crack of dawn, preparing three kids. Getting breakfast in early (non like to eat when they get up), dressing them in their cute outfits, packing the diaper bag for any emergency (it now weighs about 20 lbs), getting everyone?s book bag ready, oh yes, lunch. The drive there was always the easiest. Parking well another story. Now we get to haul all of baggage from the car to the hall. Of course no stroller so you also carry the baby, diaper bag strung from one shoulder, purse on another, hand holding the oldest book bag (to heavy) and trying to hang on to two tiny tots. Hubby is being nice he is carrying the cooler and his book bag. Finding seats close to the top of the stairs 5 mins after the doors open are near impossible. Could never figure that one out, so mid to lower stands for us. This means the joy of walking up and down all those stairs at least a million time during the day.
After a day of carrying baby, and toddler up and down those stair, them being unable to sleep on the floor (people getting in and out) so they are tired and cranky. You can?t miss the evil looks from those around us despite trying our best to keep the kids happy without toys. Miss perfect sister is sitting across from us, she has never left her seat in three days. She feeds, burps and changes the baby right there and it never cried. I feel so horrible as I am missing out on the fine spiritual feast, by not sitting there listening I am not showing proper appreciation. Guilt abounds as my husband reminds me of this.
My feet hurt along with my head, we get to parade back to the car (smiling from the refreshing spiritual food) and go out to eat. This btw is supposed to be a treat for me, cause I don?t have to go home and cook. I should also mention it is supposed to also make up for him not getting off his butt all day. Three tired grumpy kids do not make for great dinner companions but we endure yet another 6 trips to the washroom (baby is still breast feeding and it must be done under the cover of extreme darkness so says hubby.) We get to go home and watch the two oldest run around like idiots while I want to die. But, baths must be readied, clothes set out and ironed, lunch to make before I drop down and sleep. To do it all over again.
I heard rumor about actual talks and stuff at these things, but all I remember is some droning sounds and clapping of hands as I trudge up and down stairs or listening to the echo in the mans washroom. My mind would be so blank all I could think about was, what are those white puck things in the urinals for? And why am I sitting a foot away from them feeding my kid? Oh joy!
Jahna -
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Can you be disfellowshipped for taking a yoga class?
by TweetieBird ini was just wondering since i've started taking a yoga class.
not that i would mind being df'd but not ready to lose the family.
i lost my wt library cd so i don't have access to the society's stand on yoga.
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Jahna
under the caption Not a Choice for Christians the Watchtower of Aug 1 2002 states on page 22:
"The choice of what physical exercise to pursue is a personal one. Christians, however, would not allow anything?be it bodily training, eating, drinking, clothing, entertainment, or something else?to mar their relationship with Jehovah God. (1 Corinthians 10:31) For those exercising simply for the sake of their health, there are many avenues available that do not involve exposure to the dangers of spiritism and occultism. By keeping clear of practices and beliefs that are rooted in false religion, we may look forward to God?s blessing of a righteous new system of things in which we can enjoy perfect health in body and mind for an eternity.?2 Peter 3:13; Revelation 21:3, 4."...Yoga?Just an Exercise or Something More?
I would say, matter of choice yes, but a huge no no none the less. Like everything else.
Jahna