Posts by Fisherman

1380

The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness in

think about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.

why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?

as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.

Fisherman

AS

It would be dishonest for anyone to claim that they have come to conclusions on what the Bible means on their own without any outside influence because it is impossible for some one to read the Bible and make heads or tails of it. Because of my exposure to christainity, I have a christian perspective on things, but I have also tried to consider Jewish thinking. I have been very influenced by AlanF's thinking on the ransom and on God's Justice. But I make up my own mind as anyone reading my comments can see.

The great thing about this board is that one can express views whether his own or not without fear of being disfellowshipped. I encourage that people click on the sponsors links on this site. ( I am not encouraging jws to go against what they are told to do.)

But getting back to what you say about rejecting wts arguments and presents and arguments of others and presents and to read the Bible pretending that your thinking and conclusions are purely yours without being affected by other considerations is a pretense. Comming to any conclusions using your method is still linked to what you have been taught to understand as a basis for your analysis.So, realistilcally and actually it cannot be done even though you may say to yourself otherwise.

I have posted schepticism on the year 1914. I dont want to give the wrong impression that I would bet my life on 1914. The wts can change the doctrine but this is not relevant. MY argument is that it cannot be conclusively established that the kingdom was established back in the 1st century and that it seems that the event would occur in the future for the reasons that I posted.

The Bible verses that you posted is not proof or evidence, they are only verses that you are trying to use to support your view. I am not convinced 100 percent that the kingdom was to be established after the 1st century either, I have an open mind, but I lean towards future persuasion. One reason is the book of REvelation and its phrophetic visionary style when refering to the kingdom indicating future.

Also regarding your suggestion: I cannot in all fairness ignore wts arguments or COJ arguments or RF's arguments or any present that is relevant. I seem to think that instead of not considering relevant information I would rather form an opinion after taking into consideration any relevant info. There is something in that COJ highlights that I would have overlooked if not for the book which supports 1st century kingdom.

It would be great if believers in 1914 would be saved and others from earthquakes and the other disaters but nope Jesus enthronement brings more human suffering as if the bloodshed and carnage and human suffering that Christianity true or false has caused for 2000 years is not enough and if the ransom was not enough as AF says. But justifying all of this, still seems to me that the kingdom did not happen in 1st century.

1380

The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness in

think about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.

why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?

as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.

Fisherman

"no one comes to me unless the Father draws him" That is not to conclude anything about the wts, however at Jesus' baptism, Johns' conclusions on Jesus being the Messiah was not because of John's reasonings but because God had communicated with John and God told him that Jesus was the Messiah, according to what the NT says. Was John so special? Was he not only a sinful man as all of us are? Can we trust our own thinking? I think that God tries to communicate with every individual. I do not think that everyones' spiritual eyes and ears are open. This is only an opinion.

1380

The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness in

think about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.

why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?

as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.

Fisherman

Frank and AS

I will humbly do as you suggest.

1380

The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness in

think about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.

why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?

as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.

Fisherman

Ann, I have read your comments. John's reward has nothing to do with the kingdom. Fact is that John was not serving as king priest although his statement seems to indicate that he was. That is the point. WTS views are not relevant. I am only looking at the verse you quoted in support of the kingdom already being established.

Rev 12 relating to the birth of the kingdom is realted in seeming prophetic visionary style. Things that occurred in the past need only to be explained. Rev 12 does not explain, it is a vision. What is the point of having a vision about the past?

1380

The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness in

think about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.

why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?

as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.

Fisherman

AS

Your suggestions do not prove or support your argument or position on what the Bible says about the kingdom. All that you are saying is, "You are wrong."

15

JW Lurkers with motives

by KW13 in

jw
friends

http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=fe5532a505c6638b .

that is a link to the resolution passed at the convention.

i like this point, point 7. .

Fisherman

I think lurkers come here for several reasons. 1 wts investigators. 2 have doubts 3 curiosity 4 on a personal mission .

1380

The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness in

think about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.

why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?

as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.

Fisherman

Although John says in Rev "..he made us to be a kingdom..." , John'.s role on earth at that time was not a king priest.. That was to occur in the future.

The description in Rev of the woman giving birth and satan kicked out of heaven also seems to be in the future and not in the past.

1380

The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness in

think about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.

why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?

as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.

Fisherman

Does very soon mean another 28 years or another 2000 years?

In Jesus day, followers preached, the kingdom of God is at your door. In hebrew door is a homonym for generation.

If the end gets any closer it is going to catch us from behind

1380

The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness in

think about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.

why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?

as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.

Fisherman

AS In response to your commnets about proof. I did not bring up anything about wts doctrines on 1914. I do not know why you brought that up in your comment regarding my post on conclusive proof. The references you cited do not establish that conclusively either. While God was sitting on his throne, as universal sovereigm, and having all authority, Jesus taught his followers to pray "..let your kingdom come" future. By this, it can also be said that even if Jesus sat on God's throne after his ascencion does not mean that he began to rule or that his kingdom has begun. "Jehovah has become king." that scripture did not come to pass in full when it was uttered and yet, God was sitting on his throne at that time. COJ makes an interesting observation on Jesus beginning to rule as king in the 1st century. I was almost convinced from his arguments aginst Bible interpretation of the wts on this. I am not sold because the book of REV seeems to show jesus' kingdom yet into the future. But even if the kingdon was not set up in the 1st century, that does not mean that it was set up in 1914 either.

1380

The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness in

think about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.

why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?

as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.

Fisherman

AS

I agree that the Bible says that God is the universal sovereign. I also agree that one having authority does not need to exercise it to have it. But that does not mean that God has begun ruling as king just because he has all authority. According to the Bible that is a future event. So again although God has all authority whether he wishes to use it or not has nothing to do with beginning to rule as king. The same can be said about Jesus.