Posts by Fisherman

I understand more than you know. All that I am saying is that the only thing that will convince YOU (not me) is evidence from Jehovah, not claims from me or from anyone else. And that is why it is "amusing" -Marvin Shilmer to readthat people would demand evidence from others. Luke 16:31

375

This thread is for proof that God exists

by juandefiero in

jw
friends

however, i haven't found any evidence to support that belief.. have you?

if so please, show me the evidence that god exists, and i will believe along with you.. criteria:.

(1) you must specify which god you are talking about;.

Fisherman

I don't see how ...

As you wish

375

This thread is for proof that God exists

by juandefiero in

jw
friends

however, i haven't found any evidence to support that belief.. have you?

if so please, show me the evidence that god exists, and i will believe along with you.. criteria:.

(1) you must specify which god you are talking about;.

Fisherman

Does that include Mormons and Muslims who also claim to have personal revelation of god's presence?

I believe that you mean that anyone can claim to have some experience that they claim convinces them that God is real. If that is what you mean then since I cannot speak for anyone, I cannot invalidate their experience to them or to others based on their claims -or as everyone see it my claims- but I am able to conclude for myself whether or not what they claim is true based upon what I know. And that is all that matters to me.

Sometimes people believe something that is not true and sometimes they just claim something is true (for a lot of different reasons) and do not know for a fact that it is true or are just lying. ( And it is a lengthy topic to discuss how and why people think the way they do and how and why they believe what they they do, and why people claim what they do, etc.)

And that is why I posted the statement :"It is comical." -Marvin Shiimer to hear people demand proof of God from other people. Belief in Jehovah is a personal conclusion. T

375

This thread is for proof that God exists

by juandefiero in

jw
friends

however, i haven't found any evidence to support that belief.. have you?

if so please, show me the evidence that god exists, and i will believe along with you.. criteria:.

(1) you must specify which god you are talking about;.

Fisherman

as if God was some puny thing unable to give every individual a special personal answer -just for them - Fish

as if Jehovah was some "puny"(- Raymond Franz) thing unable to give every individual a special personal answer -just for them.

To paraphrase Raymond Franz: .."it woukld be a puny God if he could be subjected to being measured or proof.."

375

This thread is for proof that God exists

by juandefiero in

jw
friends

however, i haven't found any evidence to support that belief.. have you?

if so please, show me the evidence that god exists, and i will believe along with you.. criteria:.

(1) you must specify which god you are talking about;.

Fisherman

People "lose faith" in their governments. It doesn't mean they stop believing their governments are real. I've "lost faith" in friends before. It doesn't mean I started doubting my friends existence.

There is a difference with how people's mind deal with physical reality and remarkable proof of God and faith in him, there is also a difference between correct thinking and erroneous thinking. You have correctly pointed out correct thinking but your examples only show how people should deal with reality logically but you failed to show that when people do not like reality they try to fool themselves into believing that reality does not exist so they do not have to deal with it, for example, alcohol. suicide, denial, etc.There are more examples and it is a long topic to discuss but I think that it is sufficient to give a couple examples that show that when some people loose faith in reality they sometimes do not think correctly especially when reality hurts very much and they have to deal with it and the only way to cope with such pain is to believe that reality does not exists even though in the back of their minds they know it. The examples that I gave of people that know God is real but loose faith in him and forget about him sometimes come to their senses and realize that they failed to look at reality correctly.

Same as when someone reads an article or a post and does not read between the lines or or see what the author is inferring, people can be looking at at something real all of their lives and do not knowthat it is there until they change their perspective and realize the obvious or until it strikes them over the head and then they see. You have heard the expression: "I see!" said the blind man.

"It is comical." -Marvin Shiimer to hear people demand proof of God from other people. As if God was some puny thing unable to give every individual a special personal answer -just for them.

There is a problem posting I posted other information and try editing some of my choice of words that afeect meaning of some of my and cannot post through.

375

This thread is for proof that God exists

by juandefiero in

jw
friends

however, i haven't found any evidence to support that belief.. have you?

if so please, show me the evidence that god exists, and i will believe along with you.. criteria:.

(1) you must specify which god you are talking about;.

Fisherman

Yet I need faith to believe in god? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

You did not hear that from JW.

Faith is based on evidence. Without evidence to put your faith in, faith does not make sense Let me give you an example of what faith is. Lets say God gave you solid evidence that he exists. Who would be able to prove to you that he doesn't exist- and with what. You would laugh at facts attempting to prove that God does not exist.

But since evidence from God is of a personal nature for you, you realize that the purpose of the evidence is for you alone meant to help you, Really it would give you peace of mind knowing that there is real hope andthat is all a person needs -to have peace of mind, and knowing for a fact that God exists will help a person that loves God

But here is where faith comes in. You have the proof but not the relief from God you expected . Now what? You need to have faith that there is good reason for God not to give you the relief you need so much. God does not give you all the answers either, just enough to know that he exists and more.

But there is more, you start to realize things you did not realize before and your entire mind frame changes, you view reality from a different position, and you feel comfort, your depression does not go away but you have a measure of joy that gives you the strength you need you hang on. But years go by and the relief you want does not come but God does not leave you and the evidence of his existence to you becomes so unremarkable and so commonplace that nothing would surprise you. But no relief for you and years pass by and you want and need relief.;after all you are human and you have physical and emotional needs. And you are not shielded either, you still suffer and have problems.

Now, the problem no longer is that you have no proof that God exists and therefore you have evidence to have faith that God will give you relief. The problem is that you have not relief. What happens to some people is that they forget about God- believe it or not, and they the stop believing that God- exists believe it or not, they loose faith and they just do what they want to do -and other things too.

Other people do not loose faith, they do not give up and continue see very clearly that God exist in spite of God not giving them the relief they want after waiting for years and years and years. They do not need anymore evidence that God exists. They know God is real, the problem they have is they want relief.

And that is what faith in God is all about. Not proof of his existence but rather, not giving up on God.

B

375

This thread is for proof that God exists

by juandefiero in

jw
friends

however, i haven't found any evidence to support that belief.. have you?

if so please, show me the evidence that god exists, and i will believe along with you.. criteria:.

(1) you must specify which god you are talking about;.

Fisherman

I believe that there is a objective reality and there are truths to be learned about that reality.

That is my position.

I believe that reality means everything that exists and its nature and dynamics. I believe that truth involves proof or establishing something as something fact.

I view the working universe from the position that it can be measured and that scientist understand the science of the universe more than most people. I believe that there is a difference between scientific realism and reality.That difference is that science does not explain reality but only scientific realism which involves the mechanics and dynamics of the universe and how it was formed and reality involves something more and why the universe was formed and human conduct and morality.

I have used the term "physical" universe because I am convinced in the existence of Jehovah. I have concluded that Jehovah has shown in the past that he is a reality. I also conclude that He should give people proof at present so that people know empirically that He is as real as a rock, not just some mythological unicorn that cannot be logicaly unproven, but striking proof, conclusive, unambiguous, unequivocal, solid, indisputable evidence so that people may know once and for all that he is real. I would be convinced with such proof, how about you.

375

This thread is for proof that God exists

by juandefiero in

jw
friends

however, i haven't found any evidence to support that belief.. have you?

if so please, show me the evidence that god exists, and i will believe along with you.. criteria:.

(1) you must specify which god you are talking about;.

Fisherman

Not so that you could go on a rant attacking me for positions that I do not hold.

I did not go on a rant. I did not attack your position that you do not hold stating: "that we know that scientist
understand "physical" reality."

I asked you those questions so that I could better understand YOUR position.

Why does your understanding my position - that I have already stated on various posts on this thread- and fact ascertaining methodology affect in any way how much you know that scientist understand reality and how much scientist believe that they understand reality from scientific realism more than most people which is the subject matter of my posts that you refer to?

375

This thread is for proof that God exists

by juandefiero in

jw
friends

however, i haven't found any evidence to support that belief.. have you?

if so please, show me the evidence that god exists, and i will believe along with you.. criteria:.

(1) you must specify which god you are talking about;.

Fisherman

So we know that scientist understand "physical" reality.

Non sequitur! I did not say that. You did. I said that scientist know more about the physical universe than most
people. I did not say that scientist understand physical reality. Scientists are limited to understand how the
universe exists but scientist do not understand why the universe exists, they guess "why" = a random number
generator. You are confused about reality if you assume that reality = physical universe -and nothing else is real unless it is a scientific fact which means that something should not and does not exists unless or until it is known.

Do we know that there's another group of people who understand the "other factors that make up reality?" If so, how does this other group know there are other factors?What methodology do the use to determine those other factors?What are those other factors?Who is this group that knows about these other factors?Is there consensus in the group about those other factors?

I have already responded to that, but you keep posting the same thing again; You only word things differently and you keep saying the same thing: 'Reality is subject to proof' If that is what you conclude you are wrong and here is why: Reality is not subject to proof because reality is not subject to personal belief, belief can be subject to proof.

If you consider the physical universe in terms of a given working mechanical machine, it might not be so important to understand why the machine exists, but only how it works and how it was made because why it was made has zero effect on how it is working thus scientists conclude that Y has zero effect in understanding how the universe is working

I am getting tired now but I will say this: Although Y could have zero effect on how the universe is working in terms of understanding the dynamics of the working universe does not mean that Y does not have any effect on Reality unless it was known that that Y did not exist.