Which I have to say I find difficult to see as 'faith is assured expectation of the things hoped for"
That is another topic. What I was alluding to is evidence from God which does not require faith, it establishes it.
Fisherman
JoinedPosts by Fisherman
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241
Another generation....
by joey jojo init has been 21 years since the 1995 article that pretty much buried the idea of the '1914 generation'.. remember those guys?
the ones born in 1914 that would still be alive when the end of the system arrived.. i'm glad i'm old enough to remember going from door to door, preaching this belief.
the reason i say that is because i have a lot of 'still in' jw friends and family.
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Fisherman
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241
Another generation....
by joey jojo init has been 21 years since the 1995 article that pretty much buried the idea of the '1914 generation'.. remember those guys?
the ones born in 1914 that would still be alive when the end of the system arrived.. i'm glad i'm old enough to remember going from door to door, preaching this belief.
the reason i say that is because i have a lot of 'still in' jw friends and family.
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Fisherman
so, after these things have occurred it will pass away, and it has, _Prologos
Given: wt theology
The wt teaches that it has not until the disgusting thing standing in a holy place appears.
not pass away "until all these things occur",
Does that mean that if the disgusting thing causing desolation does not show up until 240 years from now the generation should pass away at that time?
It does not appear that the word "until" modifies the length of generation so it does not matter what actually happens to "generation" after all the things occur. The point is that all these things WILL occur before "this generation" passes away, hence, there is a time limit that governs all these things happening.
But if you want use the word "until" to dictate when it is ok for generation to pass away, 1914 generation has not and cannot pass away until the appearance of the disgusting thing -after that it is free to die.
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241
Another generation....
by joey jojo init has been 21 years since the 1995 article that pretty much buried the idea of the '1914 generation'.. remember those guys?
the ones born in 1914 that would still be alive when the end of the system arrived.. i'm glad i'm old enough to remember going from door to door, preaching this belief.
the reason i say that is because i have a lot of 'still in' jw friends and family.
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Fisherman
what will prevent wt or people like you to come up with the overlapping Great Crowd of 240 years
Given wt theology
What did Jesus mean by "this generation" in terms of length of years in connection with 1914?
A very interesting argument was presented by TD showing that since "the GC" survives the GT and since the GT occurs within the 1914 "generation", and since the wt seems to teach that that same GC exists before the GT, the "life expectancy" of the GC limits the length of years of the 1914 generation.
What did Jesus actually mean by generation in the related prophecy? Whatever he meant, he set a limit: NOT PASS AWAY. If such limit also governs the gc that survives the gt (as TD suggests) then also as long as there are any jw os Methuselahs alive born circa 1935, wt 1914 gt theology is valid. And if this limit is used as a rule to define the length of generation then the anointed overlap doctrine seems invalidated and generation actually means gc -not the anointed. The problem with that though is that circa 1914 when the generation began, there were no gc back then to begin with because according to wt theology the generation began with anointed and the "call" back then was for anointed, the gc did not even exist back then. The problem with that though is that in 1935 when the gc was identified, a lot of people at the convention that professed to be of the gc having an earthly hope must have been 20 years and older, born in 1915 or before which joins the second group of anointed in a siamese fashion to an existing retroactive gc being born circa 1914 who never had the heavenly calling. JW may argue that Jesus said that the anointed would not pass away not the gc but that is not possible because the gc cannot pass away, in fact they never die, surviving the gt. If the gc passes away it does not make any sense because the life expectancy of the gc governs the length of the generation because they never die -therefore anointed interlappers governing the generation length must have been born at the same time as the gc, lets say 1915 (or before unless only 20 yo jw and younger got up in the 1935 convention to profess having an earthly hope.) So, for argument sake, lets say that interlappers and gc were born in 1915. The interlapper contemporaries of the "first group" did not see the sign and according to wt theology, "this generation" means them, the anointed (1 and 2), that does not pass away, and does not directly apply to gc. But since "this generation" can only apply to the interlapping contemporary anointed as an entity, ( actually "this generation" did not apply to the first group because they were destined to die off and in fact applies to the 2nd group because they are the ones that should not pass away, hence, their lifespan defines "this generation") Problem is as TD pointed out that the overlapping anointed have a siamese twin, the gc, born at the same time. And those guys as an entity cannot die off, so although "this" has actually turned out to mean interlapping anointed, it applies to ONLY THOSE anointed of the same life expectancy as the gc. Seems that the generation that cannot pass away is the gc as an entity regardless of interlapping annointed ages -gc life expectancy rules. GC expects life -never to die and Rev states that they survive the gt of 1914 era and receive life. If they die off replaced with gc interlappers, it is ridiculous. Thus, generation is still academically valid as long as the siamese interlapppers do not pass away. That is the limit, passing away. Which means that if some jw born circa 1915 are still alive, the teaching is still academically valid. Most are pushing up daisies, but the teaching is still valid as long as the generation does not pass away. The gc is made up of not only the old guys at the beginning but everybody else that came in after. I have posted on various threads on this Forum using other parameters, that based on all of the variables, limits etc, everything must converge........
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241
Another generation....
by joey jojo init has been 21 years since the 1995 article that pretty much buried the idea of the '1914 generation'.. remember those guys?
the ones born in 1914 that would still be alive when the end of the system arrived.. i'm glad i'm old enough to remember going from door to door, preaching this belief.
the reason i say that is because i have a lot of 'still in' jw friends and family.
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Fisherman
Be convinced. UC
UC, I have posted previously that JW have evidence that trumps whether or not the gt comes within the expected generation ,however, TD very keenly established that this discussion is not about personal belief but about whether JW theology on the gc is academically and mathematically valid given wt interpretation of the "Olivette" and how wt applies it to 1914. IT is from that position that I am responding to your post and others.
Case in point: Jehovah's angel communicates with you . That trumps everything but it does not explain whether the wt interpretation of 1914, generation, etc is academically and mathematically correct. JW are convinced "wt" is God's org, HS is behind the preaching work, the meetings, the publications, the assemblies, , the discipline...
So for a JW that has the trumping evidence, even though they cannot understand why wt teachings about the generation, etc do not seem to add up, it is moot because the remarkable evidence that they have trumps. But this discussion ain't about that, IT is about the correctness of wt theology on generation in connection with 1914 and whether the integrated wt gc teaching t limits generation to a point that it invalidates wt theology on 1914.
What I am trying to show is whether or not wt theology falls apart if the gt does not come within the lifespan of people born circa 1935.
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241
Another generation....
by joey jojo init has been 21 years since the 1995 article that pretty much buried the idea of the '1914 generation'.. remember those guys?
the ones born in 1914 that would still be alive when the end of the system arrived.. i'm glad i'm old enough to remember going from door to door, preaching this belief.
the reason i say that is because i have a lot of 'still in' jw friends and family.
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Fisherman
".........heaven and earth will pass away but my words will by no means pass away......" JC
wt has never professed to be inspired although they assert to be directed by God's HS exclusively;I agree. I follow wt logic and Bible interpretation and I agree with wt theology. It fits. It appears that Judge Rutherford believed that the gc of 1935 should expect life not death from old age concurrently while pointing out the distinction between the anointed and the gc but maybe not. http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2001363
WT had expectations in 1914 and in 1925 and so on. It is in writing as UC points out, so they do not deny it. AS I see it, non anointed are modern day OS, a "great crowd of other sheep", as wt puts it. The the term gc is only a term used to describe and distinguish from anointed such that hope to be the gc of Rev when the gt comes within the limit of generation (jc meaning). The posted wt link points to information that states that in 1935 an in-gathering of the gc began although prior to 1935 some had the paradise earth desire. Albeit, given what Jesus meant by generation, the in-gathering of the gc should not exceed its "life expectancy"
Given wt theology, in terms of time span, what did Jesus mean when he referred to the generation of 1914? It seems that wt did not know and does not know for sure, but what is evident is that anointed that saw the "sign "have died
( gone to heaven) and overlappers are alive on earth. Wt current anointed overlap generation definition although disappointing is academically valid, not only because the overlap doctrine is valid but also because those of the gc born circa1935 have not passed away ( if their life span governs generation length as TD points out) .
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241
Another generation....
by joey jojo init has been 21 years since the 1995 article that pretty much buried the idea of the '1914 generation'.. remember those guys?
the ones born in 1914 that would still be alive when the end of the system arrived.. i'm glad i'm old enough to remember going from door to door, preaching this belief.
the reason i say that is because i have a lot of 'still in' jw friends and family.
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Fisherman
My father lived beyond the life expectancy......doesn't sound like much of an opportunity. maybe it would have been better to say he had a slim chance of it....... -UC
I see your point.
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241
Another generation....
by joey jojo init has been 21 years since the 1995 article that pretty much buried the idea of the '1914 generation'.. remember those guys?
the ones born in 1914 that would still be alive when the end of the system arrived.. i'm glad i'm old enough to remember going from door to door, preaching this belief.
the reason i say that is because i have a lot of 'still in' jw friends and family.
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Fisherman
not a few wheezers in wheelchairs,
Given: WT theology
Right, the gc is not only made up of 1935ers but of a multitude of younger members too that came in after 1935 and the ingathering continues, Why shouldn't such destined to be elderly not have an opportunity to survive the gt?
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241
Another generation....
by joey jojo init has been 21 years since the 1995 article that pretty much buried the idea of the '1914 generation'.. remember those guys?
the ones born in 1914 that would still be alive when the end of the system arrived.. i'm glad i'm old enough to remember going from door to door, preaching this belief.
the reason i say that is because i have a lot of 'still in' jw friends and family.
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Fisherman
*** w08 1/15 p. 23 par. 14 Counted Worthy to Receive a Kingdom ***
Hence, after 1935 the thrust of the preaching work turned to the gathering of “a great crowd,” those whom the apostle John saw in vision and who would survive “the great tribulation.”—Rev. 7:9, 10, 14.*** w15 1/15 p. 17 par. 18 Why We Observe the Lord’s Evening Meal ***
On the other hand, if you are part of the “great crowd” of “other sheep,” God has given you the earthly hope.
IT seems that some individuals that were part of the great crowd of other sheep that died of old age and other causes are obviously not part of the great crowd that survives the great tribulation. For argument sake lets say that in 1935 there were some that could live through the gt and were 15 years old at the time 1935-15=1920. Now, here we are 2017, those sheep are 97 years old!.ON the other hand, I must admit that the great crowd of 1935 must at the very least have had the opportunity to live long enough otherwise if they were destined to die of old age, they never had a chance to be part of the surviving great crowd. And that means that they never were part of the great crowd to begin with. But as long as there was a chance for them to be part of the great crowd that ultimately lives through the gt no matter how old -it is valid.
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241
Another generation....
by joey jojo init has been 21 years since the 1995 article that pretty much buried the idea of the '1914 generation'.. remember those guys?
the ones born in 1914 that would still be alive when the end of the system arrived.. i'm glad i'm old enough to remember going from door to door, preaching this belief.
the reason i say that is because i have a lot of 'still in' jw friends and family.
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Fisherman
If you have any comments on this quote, I'm interested in hearing them.
AS you see it, a Siamese twin great crowd connected to the anointed, that survives the great tribulation, should not die of old age beforehand, also mathematically speaking, the clock starts ticking sort of speak as soon as the gc (who's lifespan is also integrated with the "generation of 1914" wt theology, regardless of the meaning of generation)is identified.
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Since the gc is the only entity on earth that survives the gc (All GC are OS but not all OS are great crowd because a dead OS is not part of the great crowd.) It is axiomatic that the gc cannot die of old age(assuming it exists as a class before the gt) but credit to you for highlighting this no so obvious axiom before the forum.
Seems that in 1935 the wt had erroneously used the term gc instead of os believing in a cut-and-dried generation in connection with non anointed Christians beliving that all OS would make up the GC in terms of lenghth of generation, see below:
w15 2/15 p. 32 “A Very Precious Season” ***
The year 1935 marked a dramatic change that affected future Memorial observances, for the meaning of the “great multitude” (KJ), or “great crowd,” of Revelation 7:9 was clarified. Jehovah’s servants had viewed this group as consecrated Christians.....In other words, a new interpretation of the identity of the great crowd: They were not anointed christians, but a separate entity that survives the great tribulation. And wt is right about that in terms of consistency. Seems that they were not right about concluding that all those other sheep christians would make up the surving great crowd if they were destined die of old age. Nevertheless,such had a different hope than the annointed -paradise earth. AS time passed they hoped that everything would converge someday within the generation of 1914, they expected it would happen within the lifespan of 1914 ers. Therefore hoping to be part of the great crowd must not only mean surving because of conduct but also age.
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241
Another generation....
by joey jojo init has been 21 years since the 1995 article that pretty much buried the idea of the '1914 generation'.. remember those guys?
the ones born in 1914 that would still be alive when the end of the system arrived.. i'm glad i'm old enough to remember going from door to door, preaching this belief.
the reason i say that is because i have a lot of 'still in' jw friends and family.
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Fisherman
In John 6 Jesus said to partake is essential to get everlasting life
Prologos, that is another topic. I am not saying that it is not related but I am only focusing TD commentary on the great crowd.
It is twisting the scriptures to say the great crowd survives , or exists as an entity before the great tribulation.
I understand what you are saying but what the wt concludes seems logical when they reason that in order to come out of the gt or survive they must exist as a gc beforehand. The wt I quoted from above admits they were wrong about the gc prior to 1935.