Fisherman

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Posts by Fisherman

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  5

  Criminal court case in The Netherlands against shunning - possible jail time for WT leaders

  by AndersonsInfo in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/q5bgg5/criminal_court_case_in_the_netherlands_against/.

  "ex witnesses open attack on traumatizing shunning policy".

  this follows on the successful court case in belgium against shunning.. since this is a criminal case, the wt leaders could end up in jail in the netherlands.. multiple articles tomorrow on this topic by renowned dutch newspaper trouw.. https://www.trouw.nl/a-b51d237a.

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  Fisherman

  I think it`s a no go zone for the law to get involved in IMHO .

  Depends on the country. Canada had that big case on JW DF that went all the way up to the Supreme Court. It could have gone either way. Any country can go the other way.
  
  
• 
  5

  Criminal court case in The Netherlands against shunning - possible jail time for WT leaders

  by AndersonsInfo in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/q5bgg5/criminal_court_case_in_the_netherlands_against/.

  "ex witnesses open attack on traumatizing shunning policy".

  this follows on the successful court case in belgium against shunning.. since this is a criminal case, the wt leaders could end up in jail in the netherlands.. multiple articles tomorrow on this topic by renowned dutch newspaper trouw.. https://www.trouw.nl/a-b51d237a.

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  Fisherman

  In all fairness, is there a difference between when a church expels a member such as the Mormons and the JW for wrongful conduct and the government when they prosecute and jail individuals or enjoin them with restraining orders or when they proscribe rules of conduct in Court rooms and in other places or when individuals are trespassed, or families are separated when someone is jailed, etc?
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  122

  1995 generation change

  by Gorb in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  now, many years later, i remember the 1995 generation change, very well.. since early youth, hearing my father explaining in field service the 2520 years.

  it was his main theme in the field.. with the change my doubts started.

  with some jw friends we did not trust the organization anymore.

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  Fisherman

  wt makes the deliberate mistake again to call today's jws "

  It is axiomatic that if one of today’s JW dies, the individual is not part of GC when such dies—according to the teaching that the GC survives into the Millennium on earth. What WT seems to imply though is that today’s JW are the GC collectively and will survive the GT. WT is asserting that today’s JW is the GC described in the book of Rev, the only group that will survive and that the GT will come in their lifetime. That is the implication without actually saying it. That is what JW can conclude.
  
  
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  18

  The Cross in Pompeii & Herculaneum in 79 AD

  by Sea Breeze in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  can someone please tell the wt janitor to turn the lights off when the last jw leaves the watchtower after learning that early christians used the cross as a christian logo of sorts?

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  Fisherman

  “Just like Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness..” —The copper serpent was on a pole without a crossbeam. Given that the Bible is true, the irony of the Bible would have Jesus implaled juxtaposition all the crosses that are used in heathen worship. So, until empirical evidence proves different, the cross was not the device used to kill Jesus as the JW see it.
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  122

  1995 generation change

  by Gorb in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  now, many years later, i remember the 1995 generation change, very well.. since early youth, hearing my father explaining in field service the 2520 years.

  it was his main theme in the field.. with the change my doubts started.

  with some jw friends we did not trust the organization anymore.

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  2. 
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  Fisherman

  Why be a JW at all if that is the case?

  For the same reason, why be an Apostle if you were destined to be crucified or beheaded. Because even if things don’t add up to the point of dilemma, you are otherwise convinced.

  And such a dilemma does not invalidate the evidence that convinced you .—Which is in other words more or less what Slim stated in his comment about the overlap.
  
  
• 
  122

  1995 generation change

  by Gorb in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  now, many years later, i remember the 1995 generation change, very well.. since early youth, hearing my father explaining in field service the 2520 years.

  it was his main theme in the field.. with the change my doubts started.

  with some jw friends we did not trust the organization anymore.

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  Fisherman

  So even now, teaching that living JW are not part of the Great Crowd because they may die of old age goes against JW beliefs

  because although JW may have been wrong in the past about OS that died of old age being part of the GC, today’s OS are part of the great crowd because the end is believed to come in their lifetime so OS=GC —unless they die.
• 
  122

  1995 generation change

  by Gorb in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  now, many years later, i remember the 1995 generation change, very well.. since early youth, hearing my father explaining in field service the 2520 years.

  it was his main theme in the field.. with the change my doubts started.

  with some jw friends we did not trust the organization anymore.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
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  Fisherman

  The two groups are considered to be identical (or nearly so) in the Christian era

  TD

  This is true. Even now, older ones still figure they are part of the Great Crowd and haven’t thought about it and don’t comprehend they were never part of the GC. It was always taught or believed to be true that JW were part of the GC unless they died for some reason. Even the classification prospective member of the great crowd was interpreted as: that although they were part of the crowd, it depended on not dying before the GT. So, JW believe they are part of the GC because they believe the end will come in their life time and if the end doesn’t or didn’t come in their lifetime or died of other caused, they were prospective members. The Insight Book definition I quoted in a previous post clarifies the identity of the great crowd—to be compared with personal and other beliefs. But if you are looking for a major wt study article explaining the whole thing, JW don’t do things like that. Sometimes they do but sometimes wt gradually or subtly makes change such as the Awake article on earthquakes as sign of the last days and the Insight Book explaining the length of a creative yom.

  As Slim pointed out though, the doctrine is that the GC survives into the Millennium. A conclusion derived from the doctrine is that JW are part of the GC even before the great tribulation because “logically” the gc could not have appeared out of nowhere. But I agree TD, JW OS after 1935 have always believed they we’re GC.
  
  
• 
  122

  1995 generation change

  by Gorb in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  now, many years later, i remember the 1995 generation change, very well.. since early youth, hearing my father explaining in field service the 2520 years.

  it was his main theme in the field.. with the change my doubts started.

  with some jw friends we did not trust the organization anymore.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
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  Fisherman

  The generation meaning has to be a group of people and not a time period.

  I don’t see much of difference in the context of the return of Christ.
  
• 
  122

  1995 generation change

  by Gorb in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  now, many years later, i remember the 1995 generation change, very well.. since early youth, hearing my father explaining in field service the 2520 years.

  it was his main theme in the field.. with the change my doubts started.

  with some jw friends we did not trust the organization anymore.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Fisherman

  Waton, WT definition of the great crowd I quoted is exactly what Slim replied to TD. Slim doesn’t argue whether or not wt doctrines are valid but only that wrong wt beliefs about the great crowd don’t invalidate their definition of the GC thereby needing a change as TD was suggesting.

  Regarding your interpretation of the Bible, there are many interpretations. We have to wait and see how everything plays out.
• 
  122

  1995 generation change

  by Gorb in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  now, many years later, i remember the 1995 generation change, very well.. since early youth, hearing my father explaining in field service the 2520 years.

  it was his main theme in the field.. with the change my doubts started.

  with some jw friends we did not trust the organization anymore.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Fisherman

  This is how WT defines “the great crowd” in the publication Insight Book:

  “The sum of the evidence, therefore, points to the “great crowd” as representing all those persons who are not of the heavenly “bride” class, or 144,000 sealed ones, but who stand approved at the time of the “great tribulation” and are preserved alive on earth.” —Insight on the Scriptures