Posts by Fisherman

46

Should doctors tell JW patients that there is disagreement about Watchtower's blood policy.

by Lee Elder in

this has been a controversial issue among doctors and medical ethicists.

i think it basically comes down to the fact that physicians have a responsibility to establish the presence of informed consent.

is it really possible for a person to give informed consent if they are not accurately informed?.

Fisherman

the authority here is internal rather than external.....but not an actual command.

"......and from fornication." 1Cor 5:11, Ephesians 5:5 (command)

"abstain" to keep or prevent yourself from doing....

Blood is not a finite act though and neither are "things strangled" or sacrificed to idols. It is understood that you do not ride a dead chicken same as you do not eat boats.

Simply put, to abstain from alcohol means ( Except when a skin doctor wants to use the word abstain in a peculiar way meaning not to apply it.) that you do not consume it. To what degree? A patient should be abstaining from spirits when he drinks a small diluted amount.

We abstain from acts done in connection with objects and those acts are determined by the context.

In reference to the Bible, you need context to understand what abstain from blood means? What do you think the Bible author means? In connection with the related verse, it's ok to put a gallon of blood into your body?

It would seem that the author of the Bible would want the reader to clearly understand what is required of him when he demands compliance from the reader, but the Bible is written in a peculiar way, and at times a word or a verse or more alludes to something more than the context, and the only way to know what it means is to ask the author to elaborate.

46

Should doctors tell JW patients that there is disagreement about Watchtower's blood policy.

by Lee Elder in

this has been a controversial issue among doctors and medical ethicists.

i think it basically comes down to the fact that physicians have a responsibility to establish the presence of informed consent.

is it really possible for a person to give informed consent if they are not accurately informed?.

Fisherman

It's a question of what is the most reasonable, natural and simplest understanding of all the scriptures within their context.

No, 'Tis knowing what the author means and not about your conclusions or interpretations about what he wrote.

Cofty made his argument and you failed to overturn it.

No he did not. He failed to. And yes I did.

So please don't rewrite history on another thread.

He linked and referred to his thread that I debunked. My post was a response/reminder to him, not to you.

46

Should doctors tell JW patients that there is disagreement about Watchtower's blood policy.

by Lee Elder in

this has been a controversial issue among doctors and medical ethicists.

i think it basically comes down to the fact that physicians have a responsibility to establish the presence of informed consent.

is it really possible for a person to give informed consent if they are not accurately informed?.

Fisherman

You are sure of this

before the dance of death scene "Once Upon a Tine in the West"

Frank:: ".. Cause I know now you'll tell me what you're after."

Harmonica: "Only at the point of dying."

Ans: Only at the point of dying. Isn't courage about risk?

46

Should doctors tell JW patients that there is disagreement about Watchtower's blood policy.

by Lee Elder in

this has been a controversial issue among doctors and medical ethicists.

i think it basically comes down to the fact that physicians have a responsibility to establish the presence of informed consent.

is it really possible for a person to give informed consent if they are not accurately informed?.

Fisherman

Dear besty,

Twas. But it does not matter at all. Like I posted to TD, you can believe it too if you like it!

46

Should doctors tell JW patients that there is disagreement about Watchtower's blood policy.

by Lee Elder in

this has been a controversial issue among doctors and medical ethicists.

i think it basically comes down to the fact that physicians have a responsibility to establish the presence of informed consent.

is it really possible for a person to give informed consent if they are not accurately informed?.

Fisherman

It's all a matter of context...

Death Penalty (Deuteronomy 14:21) “You must not eat any animal that was found dead" Compare Hebrews 10:28.

Your post that you refer to above and your premise was debunked.

46

Should doctors tell JW patients that there is disagreement about Watchtower's blood policy.

by Lee Elder in

this has been a controversial issue among doctors and medical ethicists.

i think it basically comes down to the fact that physicians have a responsibility to establish the presence of informed consent.

is it really possible for a person to give informed consent if they are not accurately informed?.

Fisherman

Is English a second language by any chance?

3rd language . And besides the 3, I speak and write others too.

You've made a pretty basic error here. And misquoted the Bible too....

That is your belief and if you like it, believe it. Now, may I ask you, what error do you believe that I made? And can you show me please, where do you believe that I quoted or "misquoted" the Bible? And by the way, can you also tell me please what did I mean by "it" each time I used it in my statement that you are referring to?

46

Should doctors tell JW patients that there is disagreement about Watchtower's blood policy.

by Lee Elder in

this has been a controversial issue among doctors and medical ethicists.

i think it basically comes down to the fact that physicians have a responsibility to establish the presence of informed consent.

is it really possible for a person to give informed consent if they are not accurately informed?.

Fisherman

these are only considered in serious, life threatening circumstances.

Nahh., I don't believe that. Blood is big business and hospitals have been known to transfuse blood when possible, same as ordering a lot of tests to bill insurance companies for more money, but what patient would dare challenge a doctor who's trying to help him.

Watchtower implanted phobias and notions of uncleanness or contamination

But such fear was well founded as epi-HIV infected blood has proved. I know people that have died because of blood transfusions that would be alive today, and in all fairness, I also must say that I know at least one person that would be dead today if not for a BT. Albeit, there is a basis for the fear and repiulsion. It is not just hype.

control mechanisms to generate revulsion and compliance

JW are courageous people. They are always prepared to die for their beliefs so their stand is not out of fear of risk of infection, besides, risk is better than certain death and jw know it.However, the medical risk do encourage the religious stand.

without scriptural merit,

In all objectivity, not just how the WT interprets it, it says to abstain from blood. To what degree, how does it apply, and should blood ever be used to sustain life, especially when someone is bleeding to death and needs gallons or liters of it? The WT says no BT (at this time.)

32

legal action to Baptism of minor annulled?

by cyberjesus in

let's imagine that a 10 year old gets baptized.

parents split and kid never goes back to the hall again.

15 years later kid celebrates christmas and gets df since some dub saw him celebrating.

Fisherman

Children and minors do not need parental consent to be shot in the head or in the stomach by the police.

46

Should doctors tell JW patients that there is disagreement about Watchtower's blood policy.

by Lee Elder in

this has been a controversial issue among doctors and medical ethicists.

i think it basically comes down to the fact that physicians have a responsibility to establish the presence of informed consent.

is it really possible for a person to give informed consent if they are not accurately informed?.

Fisherman

If someone with advanced knowledge that a blood transfusion would save them and refuses then suicide might be appropriate for cause of death..

Years ago, before HIV was identified, a lot of doctors thought that they knew that a blood transfusion would save a patient wound up killing them. Also, a lot of people wound up getting infections in their liver from infected blood resulting that they die a slow torturous death. A lot of these people did not actually need blood and those people would have been saved if they would not have gotten blood transfusions. From a medical position BT had risks and still do, but if death is imminent without one then a patient has no choice if he wants to live, or at least have a fighting chance.

From a JW position, the position is religious. Medical risks are reasons JW give to support their religious position and to show and persuade non JW that their religious position is not fanatical, but also to convince JW too of the reasonableness of the stand, never-the less, even if it was possible to administer 100 percent safe blood without any risks whatsoever to a JW, a JW could not accept.

If a JW knows for a fact that God does not want him to take blood as the WT teaches then the JW is obeying God when he refuses a blood transfusion or refuses anti-venom or certain vaccines,...etc. But if it came down to it and his refusal of blood carried a risk of probable death and he did not know for a fact that God did not want him to take blood as the WT teaches and he refuses because of what he believes the Bible is saying from how the WT interprets the Bible, then his refusal is in obedience of the WT if he is refusing for religious reasons.

In survival situations a person may have to eat rat or roaches or snakes or human flesh, etc. Some people would choose to die. In some situations when a person is threatened unless they submit to the demands of their captors, some people would also choose to die.

JW are conditioned mentally to disgust blood but to the average joe that never gave it a thought, do not feel any repulsion to have quarts or gallons of some dude's bloody blood and dna and fluids, etc transfused into their body.

32

legal action to Baptism of minor annulled?

by cyberjesus in

let's imagine that a 10 year old gets baptized.

parents split and kid never goes back to the hall again.

15 years later kid celebrates christmas and gets df since some dub saw him celebrating.

Fisherman

Sometimes yes.

I want to qualify my post. I am not saying that I agree that a child or minor SHOULD qualify for JW baptism in-spite of their age. All that I am saying is that according to JW, sometimes JW determine that minors do qualify, very much the same as some minors can qualify to go to prison or get expelled from school, or face consequences for their conduct similar to adults.