Posts by Fisherman

116

News Flash: New Reveal Article

by Sugar Shane in

less than an hour old:.

https://www.revealnews.org/blog/how-child-sex-abusers-get-reinstated-as-jehovahs-witnesses/.

Fisherman

But let's say hypothetically a young teenage girl discloses to the elders that a well respected brother in the hall has raped her lets say several months earlier. She asks them not to tell anyone...to keep it confidential. Yet clearly, they can tell she is telling the truth.

Church ministers do not have the authority to adjudicate crimes. That is the subject matter of a Court of law having competent jurisdiction. Rape is a crime and if a person is found guilty of rape, he is guilty of criminal conduct, but in the US, a person is only guilty of a crime after a conviction and church ministers do not have the authority to determine guilt or innocence of a crime - but they can convict someone of sin

What should the elders do?

They should obey Caesar but by the same token the church enjoys confidentiality.

That is why an effective safeguarding policy needs to be implemented by Watchtower

Safe according to who's liking?

Physical protection of children is not the legal duty of the church but of the secular authorities. Government regulating church based activities is unconstitutional (but that is not for me to decide) and each case relating to church liability can be decided by the Court on a case by case basis. In the US, access to the Court system is easy as pie and lawyers will fight tooth and nail just to represent someone on contingency just as money is involved as it mostly always is when suing the church.

The 2 witness rule works for many types of sins. Circumstantial evidence and other forms of evidence is required in many cases where child abuse has taken place.

The role of the church is not to prosecute crimes. Church confidentiality is rooted in the 1s amendment. Governing how the church handles sinners establishes religion which violates a principle of the 1st Amendment which separates church and state.

I watch my kids. It is the responsibility of parents to protect their children and not to delegate that to the WT, elders or fellow congregants and to blame them when parents fail to do so. If you failed to protect your child in the first place resulting in him being harmed by another person or if you suspect a child is being harmed, why don't you go to the authorities and report it? -and also go to your minister for spiritual help. YoU should not trust anyone with your kids.

The church exist under us constitutional provisions. It does not exist to help prosecute crimes or to provide physical protection for children. That is the duty of Caesar.

116

News Flash: New Reveal Article

by Sugar Shane in

less than an hour old:.

https://www.revealnews.org/blog/how-child-sex-abusers-get-reinstated-as-jehovahs-witnesses/.

Fisherman

I wonder if Mr. Bundy is aware that even if a JW is repentant, they can still be DF'd? If something is well known, a dub can still get DF'd even though they say they are sorry. For instance, if an Eldub's wife takes some meds with alcohol at a social function and falls down or throws up, she can be DF'd.

So what!! Why should WT religion not be allowed to practice their religion their way on the basis that you do not like it or do not see it their way?

in the us, jw are not failing to report child abuse when they are accused of not reporting child abuse on the basis that church confidentiality privilege is rooted in the first amendment, so when JW are accused of not reporting (or failing to report it) as many state laws mandate it, WT has a legal basis under certain conditions -church confidentiality rooted in the 1st amendment.

Worldwide, it is a human right that "despicable" child abusers should be able to get confidential spiritual help same as they can get legal help. But international Courts will will decide if WT has done something wrong or illegal not me.

As far as whether it is wrong for WT to have child offender databases or adulterer databases, or homosexual databases, (or of tax cheats, killers, thieves, etc) you can believe that it is wrong if you like, but if you do not like it, it is not your business to dictate morality to the WT.

Whether or not it is legal for WT to have such databases of sinners who's sins are also crimes has to be decided in the Courts, albeit how the church handles sinners and confidential information they have on them is church business and confidential whether you like it or not.

IN THE US, how do you feel about a 16 year old boy ( sometimes lower than 16 with parental consent) marrying a 60 year old man? I don't like it and neither do JW, but we respect the the constitutional rights of others, and although WT freely publishes their moral views, they do not dictate it to others or resort to legal tactics or use the law to encroach upon or thwart the rights of others, neither do they advocate or aid and abet the government to change laws and/or punish those who practice a different morality so as to push JW morality JW's way.

70

Freddy Franz, One of the smartest men of his day????

by DwainBowman in

back in my teen years this story swept through jw land, that according to, the guinness book of records , freddy franz, was listed as one of the seven, most intelligent , men in the world.

dose anyone else remember this?

i remember trying to look it up, but never found anything in print, and ii point that out once or twice , and was told a co, had told about it, and he wouldn't lie!

Fisherman

What's surprising is that Russell pulled it out from previous Adventist preachers, then Franz used it 1943 and then again in the late 1960's , what balls ! but I guess that's part of being a WTS. head in pandering to the public's ignorance

Fink you are just repeating yourself. I have already posted with an example that the 6000 years teaching is logical. IT makes sense to conclude that 6000 years after the creation of man would start the beginning of the milenium and that still makes sense now. WT dating methods are also logical and have basis. People with other theories can disagree with their own theories but WT dating methods are not outlandish.

To remain in intellectually honest one can not make such a chronological dating from the bible or any archaeological evidence

Says you Fink. The WT has published their reasons and basis for WT dating. That is their position. You do not have to agree or feel that they are honest.

He didn't really have a strong understanding of the bible from a academic theological perspective..

You believe that theological academic education is essential to understand the Bible message. JW disagree and I disagree. Mathew 11:25; Luke 8:10 That is our position

If he was so intelligent why did he interpret an ancient Hebraic dietary law into one that isn't associated with the human diet ?

Your question is rhetorical. You are actually stating an opinion.

Fink, you post your remarks and your feelings about WT doctrine but tat does not invalidate them, and neither have you invalidated WT dating or doctrines with your theories about them. But as you admit, that is another topic and I might be lured into such a discussion at another time another thread. And you have not invalidated FF intelligence with your remarks about him. It is a pointless discussion. Look at the points I showed about WT growth. Remarkable leadership - FF for example. What have you got to show?

70

Freddy Franz, One of the smartest men of his day????

by DwainBowman in

back in my teen years this story swept through jw land, that according to, the guinness book of records , freddy franz, was listed as one of the seven, most intelligent , men in the world.

dose anyone else remember this?

i remember trying to look it up, but never found anything in print, and ii point that out once or twice , and was told a co, had told about it, and he wouldn't lie!

Fisherman

But to comment a topic yourself and then respond with "I am not mentally inclined right now to discuss it" implies that I raised the topic. I didn't; You did

Steve, I did not start the Topic of blood on this thread. Fink did.. Blood was an off point Fink used to discredit FF. I did not mean to imply you staeted the discussion on blood knowing full well that Fink started it. And my reponse to the blood part of Fink's post is qualified by my refering to discussing blood on this thread as Marvin Shilmer Topic.

But in general, gallons of blood are never shoved down a patient's throat but instead are intravenously administered. But I guess you knew that, huh?

Steve it was just a figure of speech to illustrate forcing a BT on a JW who does not want it because he believes that a BT is the same as eating or consuming blood. In that sense they are shoving it down a jw throat when he does not want a BT.

70

Freddy Franz, One of the smartest men of his day????

by DwainBowman in

back in my teen years this story swept through jw land, that according to, the guinness book of records , freddy franz, was listed as one of the seven, most intelligent , men in the world.

dose anyone else remember this?

i remember trying to look it up, but never found anything in print, and ii point that out once or twice , and was told a co, had told about it, and he wouldn't lie!

Fisherman

Do you know how quickly people die when they suffer traumatic blood loss as in vehicle accidents and injuries at work or home?

Of course I know.

That is another topic steve, and I am not mentally inclined right now to discuss it. Perhaps another time another thread. But I already posted in another thread that a person must be prepared to die if they refuse BT. Albeit, I would still want the freedom to choose what treatment I want for my body and not have gallons of blood shoved down my throat if that is not what I want.

70

Freddy Franz, One of the smartest men of his day????

by DwainBowman in

back in my teen years this story swept through jw land, that according to, the guinness book of records , freddy franz, was listed as one of the seven, most intelligent , men in the world.

dose anyone else remember this?

i remember trying to look it up, but never found anything in print, and ii point that out once or twice , and was told a co, had told about it, and he wouldn't lie!

Fisherman

I do not deny that either man was an accomplished speaker and could give a talk from memory.

So why didn't you say that from the very beginning in response to what I posted? But instead you challenged what I said and I after a showed you that what I said was correct, you agree with me and and then get on a different horse and challenge me on another point. Case closed.

I have already formed an opinion about the man.I know that no one could give me more information than I what I already have.

These were the charismatic men of an era of JW history. JW leaders today are respected because they are JW leaders but they are not viewed with the same awe and esteem sort of speak as those charismatic men were back then.

70

Freddy Franz, One of the smartest men of his day????

by DwainBowman in

back in my teen years this story swept through jw land, that according to, the guinness book of records , freddy franz, was listed as one of the seven, most intelligent , men in the world.

dose anyone else remember this?

i remember trying to look it up, but never found anything in print, and ii point that out once or twice , and was told a co, had told about it, and he wouldn't lie!

Fisherman

I guess he forgot about his old lies from the past

Fink, the 6000 year teaching is very logical. It makes sense. (Problem is that it did not realize lol) The teaching is not outlandish vision of FF. Jews for example have the same teaching to mark the Messianic era but use different reference dates.

This guy was a crook and con man portraying himself to be a academically trained bible scholar but was just a idealistic amateur who took on the position of one of the leading writers for the WTS.

I disagree. My whole perspective understanding of the Bible would not have been so enriched if not for the WT writers such as FF. And that is why I have no problem understanding Rashi in Jewish terms and Christendoms teachings thinking in their terms and that is why I also have the mental grasp that I have of the Bible in perspective not just a one side view. Now about what he is being accused of relating to academic claims, I do not know and in all justice first his academic claims (whatever people say they are ) must be establsihed and then invalidated. I have not seen that, only accustaion and inconcluive evidence. And this site is not the proper impartial arbitrator or Forum adjudicate that he amde any false claims about hi academic credentials.

He was also mainly responsible of creating the no blood doctrine which has killed thousands and still kills people to day ,

I don't know about that. But until recently when they had more effective screening methods for blood a lot of people got infected from bad blood. IT is also true that a lot of people were cured with the use of BT. I know of examples for both cases and it is also fair to say that lives were saved that would otherwise have been lost had they accepted blood. Whatever the case, it is not so outlandish not to be so blood happy,;just look at how popular bloodless medicine has become. I do not see however how medical risks would bring any comfort to someone who lost a loved one as result of not accepting blood. I could understand their outrage But that is a Marvin Shilmer topic. But you have have not shown that FF is responsible for the deaths of thousands as you assert by saying that he is mainly responsible.

FF was remarkable and brilliant in his ambit of understanding of the Bible, his memory, his intelligence and in his success in expanding JW worlwide to millions, financial grwoth of the org, triumphant legal victories, etc. That aint easy.

70

Freddy Franz, One of the smartest men of his day????

by DwainBowman in

back in my teen years this story swept through jw land, that according to, the guinness book of records , freddy franz, was listed as one of the seven, most intelligent , men in the world.

dose anyone else remember this?

i remember trying to look it up, but never found anything in print, and ii point that out once or twice , and was told a co, had told about it, and he wouldn't lie!

Fisherman

He dressed in an outlandish manner

I never saw that. Seemed to me that he blended with everybody else. At least I do not remember noticing. And that was never pointed out to me. Maybe in his much younger years or while he was traveling if that was the case,

70

Freddy Franz, One of the smartest men of his day????

by DwainBowman in

back in my teen years this story swept through jw land, that according to, the guinness book of records , freddy franz, was listed as one of the seven, most intelligent , men in the world.

dose anyone else remember this?

i remember trying to look it up, but never found anything in print, and ii point that out once or twice , and was told a co, had told about it, and he wouldn't lie!

Fisherman

He (Franz) did not use notes.

He did not uses notes, or rather, he did not need them for his talks

Spark, you only quoted part of what said. I explained the part that you quoted with the rest of my statement. BA also claims that she saw BF give a talk at the assembly without notes and that shows that he could and that he did.

The photos that you posted show BF reading something at an Assembly but it does not establish that he was referring to his notes. At an assembly, speakers are sometimes required to read something to the audience word for word. He may have been doing that or he may have been reading from his notes. But BA and myself have already stated what we claim is case, and that is, that FF could give a talk without notes even at an assembly.

These are no myths. He was not an ordinary man. He was a brilliant remarkable man, yet he had his shortcomings and failures like everybody else. I honor and respect him -but that is just me.

70

Freddy Franz, One of the smartest men of his day????

by DwainBowman in

back in my teen years this story swept through jw land, that according to, the guinness book of records , freddy franz, was listed as one of the seven, most intelligent , men in the world.

dose anyone else remember this?

i remember trying to look it up, but never found anything in print, and ii point that out once or twice , and was told a co, had told about it, and he wouldn't lie!

Fisherman

Just because you didn't see him doesn't mean that he didn't

Spark, I never said that he did not use notes. I only said that I never saw him use them. I also qualified my statement : or he would just give any talk without any notes even at the assembly.

That is what I observed, what I saw- not what I heard from others- and I saw him up close give more talks than most JW. I did not realize this on my own, it was pointed out to me and then I took noticed when he would go up to the platform with just the Bible. I also saw him read from the song book but that does not mean that he could not sing the songs without reading them. I never heard that he was a Savant or had photographic memory but I I did see him give a lot of LONG talks without notes. So the point is that: He could and he did give talks without notes and I saw what I saw.

Spark, the photos you posted do not establish that BK was reading from his notes. He could have been reading some letter for example or some announcement -or maybe as you imply,his notes. I do not know but they they not seem like notes to me. Seems to me as if he is reading something ,not referring to his notes.