Posts by Fisherman

40

Congregation in PA sues over mandatory reporting

by Corney in

ivy hill congregation of jehovah's witnesses is currently suing the pa department of human services.

it requests "a declaration that its elders are entitled to" clergy privilege, or, in the alternative,.

to the extent that the clergyman privilege is determined to exclude its elders on the basis that they are "members of [a] religious organization[] in which members other than the leader thereof are deemed clergymen or ministers," the court declare the statute to be unconstitutional.

Fisherman

This is all irrelevant because the fact is elders don't find out through 'ecclesiastical confession', they find out because a parent or child reports it to them.

You can use that argument in Court and when JW or anybody else is found in violation of the statute they are liable. IMHO it is hypocritical for a catholic priest to to close his eyes to wrongdoing whereas JW identify the sinner and adjudicates sin by df and offers spiritual help whereas the catholic church does nothing but that is irrelevant legally. You claim that by hiding behind a confessional booth and intentionally closing your eyes qualifies a priest for ecclesiastical confidentiality whereas JW sinners should not have the same confidentiality because they don’t do things the Catholic way. That is hilarious but the standard is law and that standard is ecclesiastical communications in a spiritual setting which doesn’t legally only mean a catholic booth crafted to prevent identification it also applies to the way JW adjudicates sin. Courts have upheld JW ecclesiastical communications are protected. But that’s what the Courts are for, to compel disclosure when they don’t legally meet the standard.

an elder isn't paid clergy, the circuit overseer certainly is!

Certainly not because sisters and other volunteers also get allowances like the CO. Also, there is no clergy laity distinction in the JW. There are are also other difference between the paid clergy of “christendom” and JW spiritual “shepherds” one difference is clergy privileges for parking motor vehicles and other clergy privileges. They identify themselves as clergy and they get paid. Getting an allowance does not make a person clergy. So, legally speaking, that is the tension and that is what needs to be decided legally (as I posted before,) when JW are legally considered under any law clergy and not by some catholic opinion.

40

Congregation in PA sues over mandatory reporting

by Corney in

ivy hill congregation of jehovah's witnesses is currently suing the pa department of human services.

it requests "a declaration that its elders are entitled to" clergy privilege, or, in the alternative,.

to the extent that the clergyman privilege is determined to exclude its elders on the basis that they are "members of [a] religious organization[] in which members other than the leader thereof are deemed clergymen or ministers," the court declare the statute to be unconstitutional.

Fisherman

Hi LHG!

People are not taken to Court for their morality or beliefs or the way they practice their religion. But for legal reasons and for causing injury to others; that is what this is about so if your case is about how you feel JW should practice their religion that is not the jurisdiction of legal proceedings. For example, law enforcement does not enforce feelings but criminal conduct. If someone offends your feelings you can criticize them all you want but you can’t sue them for that unless they’ve broken some law. It’s tough bananas and if try to go after them some other way even legally, it is retaliation and that may be a crime.

40

Congregation in PA sues over mandatory reporting

by Corney in

ivy hill congregation of jehovah's witnesses is currently suing the pa department of human services.

it requests "a declaration that its elders are entitled to" clergy privilege, or, in the alternative,.

to the extent that the clergyman privilege is determined to exclude its elders on the basis that they are "members of [a] religious organization[] in which members other than the leader thereof are deemed clergymen or ministers," the court declare the statute to be unconstitutional.

Fisherman

Fisherman: the moral thing to do would be to report abuse accusations to the authorities for investigation.

On the other hand it is not moral to violate ecclesiastical confidentiality and laws that protect it. Also, morality standards is subjective.

Also, if it is a moral issue, then secular Courts do not have subject matter. And laws should not govern morality.

40

Congregation in PA sues over mandatory reporting

by Corney in

ivy hill congregation of jehovah's witnesses is currently suing the pa department of human services.

it requests "a declaration that its elders are entitled to" clergy privilege, or, in the alternative,.

to the extent that the clergyman privilege is determined to exclude its elders on the basis that they are "members of [a] religious organization[] in which members other than the leader thereof are deemed clergymen or ministers," the court declare the statute to be unconstitutional.

Fisherman

So, basically, the Org wants the court to exempt them from reporting child abuse.

Hi vidiot! Long time we don't argue (lol).I have tried to answer the question in my posts on this topic: The tension is on the legal definition of the word clergy and how it applies to JW. Clergy doesn’t apply to lawyers and JW claim that because they claim they don’t have a paid clergy, some laws that use the word clergy may not apply to them either. The Courts have to rule on this and they haven’t. Another tension that I pointed out is the legal conflict between the rights people have to ecclesiastical confidentiality and the mandatory statutes. Both laws are compulsory. JW elders must comply with the reporting laws and when they are accused of not complying, they are taken to Court. They can also be sued when they disclose ecclesiastical communications to law enforcement.

31

Does the WTS have a clergy class

by blondie in

jw
friends

this can be confusing because the wts has adjusted from not having a clergy class to not having a "paid" clergy class.. "a congregation of brothers precludes having a proud clergy class that honors itself with high-sounding titles and elevates itself above a laity" wt 6/1/2001 p. 12, pp 11. still same idea in 2021 wt october, p. 20, pp.

7, but 2022 in the wt publication, frequently asked questions about jehovah’s witnesses, page 13, the wts inserts "paid" in front of "clergy perhaps to shore up their current statement in secular courts they have clergy, just not paid) "following the model of first-century christianity, jehovah’s witnesses have no clergy-laity division.

all baptized witnesses are ordained ministers and share in the preaching and teaching work.

Fisherman

Well, I don’t !
You slipped there ! 😛

Everyone in Bethel. Women and non Elders too. So the theory about wt paid clergy falls apart because the same allowance for everyone is not a paid clergy.

Keep in mind that Courts of law don’t try feelings or morality. If a person is offended by or doesn’t like somebody else’s legal conduct, too bad. The subject matter of secular courts is facts and laws. So if someone feels that JW shouldn’t be interpreting the word clergy the way they are doing, they can feel that way but feelings don’t mitigate rights and laws. I have already stated that Courts decide how to interpret the word clergy as it applies to JW and JW have the same rights as everybody else to defend their legal position particularly as the word clergy is legally being applied to them in any given case. It is not wrong and it is not illegal to do that. That is the point.

31

Does the WTS have a clergy class

by blondie in

jw
friends

this can be confusing because the wts has adjusted from not having a clergy class to not having a "paid" clergy class.. "a congregation of brothers precludes having a proud clergy class that honors itself with high-sounding titles and elevates itself above a laity" wt 6/1/2001 p. 12, pp 11. still same idea in 2021 wt october, p. 20, pp.

7, but 2022 in the wt publication, frequently asked questions about jehovah’s witnesses, page 13, the wts inserts "paid" in front of "clergy perhaps to shore up their current statement in secular courts they have clergy, just not paid) "following the model of first-century christianity, jehovah’s witnesses have no clergy-laity division.

all baptized witnesses are ordained ministers and share in the preaching and teaching work.

Fisherman

Sorry, mate, our good friend Scholar JW did a better contest !

That is la logical fallacy. You didn’t falsify what I said. It is not about the chess player, it’s about the game.

31

Does the WTS have a clergy class

by blondie in

jw
friends

this can be confusing because the wts has adjusted from not having a clergy class to not having a "paid" clergy class.. "a congregation of brothers precludes having a proud clergy class that honors itself with high-sounding titles and elevates itself above a laity" wt 6/1/2001 p. 12, pp 11. still same idea in 2021 wt october, p. 20, pp.

7, but 2022 in the wt publication, frequently asked questions about jehovah’s witnesses, page 13, the wts inserts "paid" in front of "clergy perhaps to shore up their current statement in secular courts they have clergy, just not paid) "following the model of first-century christianity, jehovah’s witnesses have no clergy-laity division.

all baptized witnesses are ordained ministers and share in the preaching and teaching work.

Fisherman

Haha, that’s called “shifting the goalposts”. 😀

No it is not. Not at all. The law is so crafted. And legal conduct cannot be construed as breaking the law for example invoking the 5th or not consenting to a warrantless search does not constitute concealing criminal conduct, it is rights afforded by law. If you get a summons and there is a conflict between the factual part and the accusatory part, there is legal grounds for dismissal. It is the law, it is not wrongful conduct.

31

Does the WTS have a clergy class

by blondie in

jw
friends

this can be confusing because the wts has adjusted from not having a clergy class to not having a "paid" clergy class.. "a congregation of brothers precludes having a proud clergy class that honors itself with high-sounding titles and elevates itself above a laity" wt 6/1/2001 p. 12, pp 11. still same idea in 2021 wt october, p. 20, pp.

7, but 2022 in the wt publication, frequently asked questions about jehovah’s witnesses, page 13, the wts inserts "paid" in front of "clergy perhaps to shore up their current statement in secular courts they have clergy, just not paid) "following the model of first-century christianity, jehovah’s witnesses have no clergy-laity division.

all baptized witnesses are ordained ministers and share in the preaching and teaching work.

Fisherman

They receive a paid allowance, meagre I agree, but an allowance nontheless.

Not as a clergy class. Everyone gets a n allowance.

31

Does the WTS have a clergy class

by blondie in

jw
friends

this can be confusing because the wts has adjusted from not having a clergy class to not having a "paid" clergy class.. "a congregation of brothers precludes having a proud clergy class that honors itself with high-sounding titles and elevates itself above a laity" wt 6/1/2001 p. 12, pp 11. still same idea in 2021 wt october, p. 20, pp.

7, but 2022 in the wt publication, frequently asked questions about jehovah’s witnesses, page 13, the wts inserts "paid" in front of "clergy perhaps to shore up their current statement in secular courts they have clergy, just not paid) "following the model of first-century christianity, jehovah’s witnesses have no clergy-laity division.

all baptized witnesses are ordained ministers and share in the preaching and teaching work.

Fisherman

They want it both ways. They want to be clergy when protecting themselves from the courts. But, when making their sales pitch to the gullible, they claim to have not have a clergy class.

Not at all since the word can have dubious meanings.

31

Does the WTS have a clergy class

by blondie in

jw
friends

this can be confusing because the wts has adjusted from not having a clergy class to not having a "paid" clergy class.. "a congregation of brothers precludes having a proud clergy class that honors itself with high-sounding titles and elevates itself above a laity" wt 6/1/2001 p. 12, pp 11. still same idea in 2021 wt october, p. 20, pp.

7, but 2022 in the wt publication, frequently asked questions about jehovah’s witnesses, page 13, the wts inserts "paid" in front of "clergy perhaps to shore up their current statement in secular courts they have clergy, just not paid) "following the model of first-century christianity, jehovah’s witnesses have no clergy-laity division.

all baptized witnesses are ordained ministers and share in the preaching and teaching work.

Fisherman

paid" in front of "clergy perhaps to shore up their current statement in secular courts they have clergy, just not paid)

JW elders are not paid and are not clergy like the clergy of christendom either and the term paid clergy does not have to imply that JW have an unpaid clergy. It could simply mean that JW don’t have a clergy and that their ministers don't get paid as the clergy of christendom does. JW have stated on Court that they don’t have a clergy class. However, the law has applied the term clergy to JW elders when the law defines the term as any ordained minister, rabbi, or priest. The term can also mean the paid clergy of christendom. That’s what the Courts and legal proceedings are for, to interpret the law.