Posts by Fisherman

43

Basic Blood Questions For Witnesses

by Vanderhoven7 in

basic blood questions for jehovah's witnesses.

where does the bible outlaw blood transfusions?

(acts 15:29 gen.9:4) .

Fisherman

The JW's could very honestly and truthfully point out that biblical prohibitions against blood are all references to whole blood.

Off the top off my head, take for example isolated anethole or eugenol juxtaposition major blood components that characterize blood. Could it honestly be said that eugenol is not cloves and one could use it without tasting cloves or experiencing its effects? A legal or chemical argument could be made that it isn’t —same as with blood.

But then what do I know?

Your reasoning is persuasive. Your information is valued. Your argument also implies that since JW have been wrong about fractions then why shouldn’t they be wrong about the teaching altogether since they claim to be guided by God in which case they logically wouldn’t be wrong about the fractions. And if God is not part of the equation, it is wholly a medical decision. —But we still have the Decree and what it means for Christians. And what God meant in the Decree. Christians in good conscience can’t just pretend they are not bound by it and put anise or anethole or ethanol into their bodies and believe they are only required not to eat it or that they are allowed to by God because it is lifesaving. The Decree says to abstain from blood not JW leadership.

16

Underage child: PIMI vs PIMO parents rights

by psyco in

i am a pimo, inactive, parent of an underage child.

i was wondering what rights i have in regards to avoid that my child will be baptized when still underage, not having read the entire bible and before being able to clearly evaluate all the alternatives and consequences (like it happened to me) whereas the other pimi parent has all the rights to do it.

any experiences about children in a pimi vs pimo parents situation?

Fisherman

You can tell your kid that you want him to wait until he gets older. And you can tell the elders that you don’t want him to get baptized until he is of legal age because that is your decision.

43

Basic Blood Questions For Witnesses

by Vanderhoven7 in

basic blood questions for jehovah's witnesses.

where does the bible outlaw blood transfusions?

(acts 15:29 gen.9:4) .

Fisherman

Thank you, TD for your kind and valuable information on this topic.

A person faced with the choice of death or a BT without God in the equation might logically choose a BT because the benefits outweigh the risks. There is really no other choice. You will die without it —trusting the doctor’s medical opinion. Whereas A JW would factor in God seems to me, based on personal experience and trusting that what “God’s Organization” teaches about BT comes from God. Logically, he would figure that even with God not a variable, he would always be in fear and waiting that something would blow up inside his body should he survive with the BT and could never have peace of mind, and would always wonder if he would have survived anyway without the BT. It seems that JW figures that, true violating the Decree ( assuming the teaching is correct) offends God for symbolic reasons but there must also be other health or medical reasons why God gave the command to abstain from blood in the Decree.

All this assumes the premise that the BT teaching is from God and not just human interpretation of scripture subject to error.

43

Basic Blood Questions For Witnesses

by Vanderhoven7 in

basic blood questions for jehovah's witnesses.

where does the bible outlaw blood transfusions?

(acts 15:29 gen.9:4) .

Fisherman

TD,

It hard for some JW to realize that transfused blood does not act like food but behaves like a person’s own blood behaves. That is the point. You have helped to clarify this. I enjoy dialogues that bring out the truth like the one’s I have with you. I think it would be helpful if you explained what happens to transfused blood in the body. You mentioned that it is broken up in time and excreted from the body. But if the body absorbs any of it or is metabolized or becomes part of the cellular structure of the body instead of simply being removed —even though a person’s own blood does this anyway- it also nourishes the body and is not only performing an organic function.

43

Basic Blood Questions For Witnesses

by Vanderhoven7 in

basic blood questions for jehovah's witnesses.

where does the bible outlaw blood transfusions?

(acts 15:29 gen.9:4) .

Fisherman

Cofty, I understand your point that the blood of a slaughtered creature is not being used in a BT. It is a good point juxtaposition that blood is intrinsically sacred because the soul is in the blood to begin with.

43

Basic Blood Questions For Witnesses

by Vanderhoven7 in

basic blood questions for jehovah's witnesses.

where does the bible outlaw blood transfusions?

(acts 15:29 gen.9:4) .

Fisherman

the blood is no more sacred than the teeth

You keep asserting that.

Without discrediting your point that there is a distinction between the blood of an animal that died on it’s own and the blood of a living animal that was slaughtered for food, I have already refuted your application to BT. Also, whole blood taken from a living organism is not congruent with the blood inside a carcass that cannot be removed because we see tolerances for Christians when eating animals not slaughtered correctly compare to abstaining from blood.

43

Basic Blood Questions For Witnesses

by Vanderhoven7 in

basic blood questions for jehovah's witnesses.

where does the bible outlaw blood transfusions?

(acts 15:29 gen.9:4) .

Fisherman

TD,

I really enjoy your point explaining that abstaining from an object is nonsensical because abstaining refers to conduct usually having to do with consumption such as with ethanol which can also be consumed via IV although as you have kindly clarified, blood is not like alcohol which doesn’t behave like an organ but is solely metabolized when ingested. I think what needs to be clearly understood is what uses of blood are restricted and which are allowed according to the decree. Maybe you can try to explain.

43

Basic Blood Questions For Witnesses

by Vanderhoven7 in

basic blood questions for jehovah's witnesses.

where does the bible outlaw blood transfusions?

(acts 15:29 gen.9:4) .

Fisherman

they are broken down and excreted.

You understand very well that that is not always true because the body can eat itself by catabolizing (sounds like cannibalizing) protein into energy. If that happens to an organ that belonged to a donor, it is serving as a food source. Also, not all hemoglobin that is broken down is excreted. Some can be recycled or metabolized. If you are absorbing, consuming, ingesting, using —or whatever, your own blood, that is what your body naturally does but if you are consuming 1/2 gallon of whole blood that you have ingested or transplanted into your body via IV, how are you abstaining from blood as the decree commands within the definition of abstaining ? In every case in the Bible where conduct is restricted, what conduct is authorized is also defined. No Bible authorized use for blood is defined in the decree. Interestingly, the scriptures go on to explain as I mentioned previously how Christians should not go around investigating whether a meat is kosher for christians which could result in eating prohibited food whereas no further explanation is given on abstaining from blood.

As you pointed out, some vaccines are made from blood —or contain a little blood? and JW can take such vaccines and there is reasoning behind it that you find inconsistent. I’m just guessing but JW decision makers don’t find a reason that using vaccines violates the decree however putting a gallon or a a couple of pints of whole blood into a person’s body for medical reasons that can save a person’s life is understood by JW that it violates the decree.

What is difficult to understand about BT is that obeying God’s commands should result in life or good health but a person that refuses a blood transfusion in a medical emergency can die whereas taking one can either save a person’s life or give the person a chance to live —but with a possible health risk of a deadly disease like the surprise of aids or who knows what other effects to expect years down the line and with other people’s dna and chromosomes running through a person’s veins.

43

Basic Blood Questions For Witnesses

by Vanderhoven7 in

basic blood questions for jehovah's witnesses.

where does the bible outlaw blood transfusions?

(acts 15:29 gen.9:4) .

Fisherman

to frame an argument of similarity (?)

Unlike a kidney transplant or a metal buttress for a broken bone, BT blood is absorbed by the body thereby ingesting it.

My examples are not highlighting relationships but pointing out that when an act such as killing is defined as murder in the Bible and prohibited, the Bible also clearly defines when killing is not prohibited and allowed. Therefore, although there is a difference between eating blood and using blood for medical reasons, the Bible does not sanction any medical use of blood or other use of blood except for ritual, so the Decree ( according to the latest JW commentary ) not only refers to eating blood but also involves medical use in a blood transfusion.

(All of the transfused blood in a BT might not be absorbed right away but similar to the y chromosomes you mentioned that showed up in the blood stream of the mother (assumed true) any trace blood of the fetus will be absorbed or ingested in time by the mother with no evidence of y chromosomes.)

43

Basic Blood Questions For Witnesses

by Vanderhoven7 in

basic blood questions for jehovah's witnesses.

where does the bible outlaw blood transfusions?

(acts 15:29 gen.9:4) .

Fisherman

TD

I must confess that I enjoy your kind and elegant style.

Moral equivalency is not established by similarity. It is established via a logical construct.

The Bible distinguishes shedding blood with murder. 1 Ch 22:7,8

The Bible distinguishes lawful sex with adultery.

The Bible distinguishes burning incense to gods and as ritual prayer to Jehovah.

The Bible distinguishes the act of drinking wine or eating from a ritual.

The Bible does not distinguish eating blood from ingesting a gallon of it via IV.