Posts by laurelin

17

June 15th Watchtower -- A critque

by TD in

there is an ancient artist?s saying that states, "if you do not know your materials, all you do is express your inability to express yourself.

" an artist must know his materials and the ideal of a true artist is to know those materials so well that using them is as natural as breathing.

in the two companion articles, "rightly value your gift of life" and "be guided by the living god," the june 15th, 2004 issue of the watchtower proves beyond any doubt that its writers have attained that ideal with their chosen medium.

laurelin

Wow! This thread has been very useful to me.

I've always had a problem with the shifting of the thoughts on the use of blood. But this thread has given me a lot of help.

Thanks.

32

Why this is not xjw forum

by kls in

i used to wonder why with so many xjws on here ,or nearly xjws on this forum ,why it was not named so .

that way we would not have so many troll's and practicing jws come on this site looking for people in their own religion ( cough ) .

now when i see a newbie join and they are practicing jws ,i think maybe just maybe by them not knowing most here are out of the cult and they read the threads posted by so many knowing and knowledgable people on the forum ,that some may log off and actually think of some things that have seen.

laurelin

Thank you Wednesday. You've made me feel better.

76

Why is there death and suffering?

by hooberus in

why is there death and suffering?

a biblical perspective.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2002/death_suffering.asp.

laurelin

I'm going to brave the sarcasism and put in my penny worth here.

My father died and I feel there is nothing natural in death. Wilson Mizner puts it straight:

"Those who welcome death have only tried it from the ears up"

For the moment I go along with the biblical reasons of why there is death and suffering. I cannot equate evolution but do not knock those of you who do. I can't see that there is an answer to these questions for agnostics and evolusionists.

I remember the Pope (although his name escapes me) that was shot. He fought to survive (and he hopes to go to heaven) for all he was worth which to my mind goes to show that Death is not natural and when we are actually face to face with it (not discussing it knowing we are healthy) it's a different story.

I don't want to die and the thought of family having to die at some point breaks my heart. There has to be something more than living, breathing, dying. It serves no purpose other than heartbreak and futility.

And as for heaven... I have never been inclined to go to heaven where there is so much on this earth that I have yet to see. I want to live forever in the paradise that the bible promises. But that's just my point of view and everyone views things differently.

9

607bce. An idiots guide needed please.

by laurelin in

i have read a lot of threads on here about 607 b.c.e.

and i find a lot of them confusing.. i'm not an idiot but neither am i that well versed in star charts and archeological finds and some of the threads here (that i've found) have left me even more confused as they often make reference to things i know nothing about.. does anyone out there know where i can find an easy to read and understand explanation of 607.. am i to understand that it's the bible that comes to the date 607 and no other secular evidence can be found?.

i'm not having a go at any of the threads here as i'm sure they are excellent threads, they just go right over the top of my head.. i can't get any access to books or anything like that due to home circumstances so anything online would be perfect.. i would be grateful for any help anyone can give me.. thanks.

laurelin

I have read a lot of threads on here about 607 B.C.E. and I find a lot of them confusing.

I'm not an idiot but neither am I that well versed in star charts and archeological finds and some of the threads here (that I've found) have left me even more confused as they often make reference to things I know nothing about.

Does anyone out there know where I can find an easy to read and understand explanation of 607.

Am I to understand that it's the bible that comes to the date 607 and no other secular evidence can be found?

I'm not having a go at any of the threads here as I'm sure they are excellent threads, they just go right over the top of my head.

I can't get any access to books or anything like that due to home circumstances so anything online would be perfect.

I would be grateful for any help anyone can give me.

Thanks.

7

What didn't you know?

by confusedjw in

i didn't have a clue to these issues below.

i was surprised after 20 years in the wtbts to find out that...... 587bce and not 607bce <--- not a clue about this.. 1874 was taught until 1929 as the date jesus took rule in heaven <------ actually i did read this once and surpressed it due to my great faith in the org.. that jesus is the mediator of all men (and women) .

that the great crowd of rev is in the temple (naos) <--- they are in heaven, scripturally speaking.

laurelin

I was born into the "truth" as well and although a lot of things I didn't know, there were a few things I did know.

My father was never one to hide or lie and he told me all about 1975. (It didn't affect his faith in the truth at all) But I can remember the "discussions" around the tea table about 1975. My mum was a firm believer that it was a "testing time" and my dad a firm believer in it being a mistake by the society.

I remember once my mum trying to deny that the society ever stated 1975 and my dad blew her arguement right out of the water using several of the books at the time (their names escape me). But she couldn't deny it after that and instead shifted to the "Testing time" theory.

One of the major things I didn't know and I'm still unclear on is that it would appear that Rutherford orginally got his 1914 date from measuring the angles and whatnot of the Great Pyramid of Gezza. (sp?)

I don't see any mention of this and many other things in the Proclaimers book which can make me feel a little resentful.

32

Why this is not xjw forum

by kls in

i used to wonder why with so many xjws on here ,or nearly xjws on this forum ,why it was not named so .

that way we would not have so many troll's and practicing jws come on this site looking for people in their own religion ( cough ) .

now when i see a newbie join and they are practicing jws ,i think maybe just maybe by them not knowing most here are out of the cult and they read the threads posted by so many knowing and knowledgable people on the forum ,that some may log off and actually think of some things that have seen.

laurelin

I read through this thread and thought yes, everyone here is smack on.

I've been reading ( and very, very occassionaly) posting since February and I have to admit that some of the posters here frighten me. I still attend meetings and although I haven't been out on the service for awhile I don't consider myself to have "left" the faith yet.

I came here with questions and have found some very interesting and very thought provoking threads here. But I have also found a lot of sarcasism that has made me wary of posting incase I get flamed as well.

I have questions about my faith (not in God but the organisation) but I am at the point the disciples were at when Jesus asked them if they were going to leave him and they replied "Where would we go to?" (or words to that effect). I have seen nothing ( I have looked at other religions and organisations) that seems better than what the Society offer through the bible. Their history is riddled with faults, changes and complete and utter turnabouts but still something still rings true with them.

My whole point to responding to this thread was to agree with everyone along the lines of this:

That is one reason I wish people would resist the urge to be smart a$$es to ones who stumble in innocently

Some, like me, want to hang around and try and find answers but some posters can be scary and often times I find myself not wanting to ask questions or post because of fear of the backlash of me, a "dub" "lurker" posting.

None of this post is meant to offend anyone; just put across my point of view.

29

Concerning Birthdays, Dogs, and the Bible

by metatron in

the watchtower can't establish clear evidence that birthdays , as a natural event, are part of 'false' religion.. so, they try to associate them with negative events in the bible and condemn them thereby.. the trouble with this reasoning is that it is foolish to condemn any practise arbitrarily simply because someone can.

find something negative correlated with it in bible events.

( how about chronology and false prophecy?).

laurelin

Undercover;

Someone has mentioned something to the effect that the WTS, since making a bigger impact in Mexico, is trying to make it easier for people there to accept "the Truth(tm)".

To un-demonize pinatas they used their new theory that if a certain practice no longer has pagan connection, influence or is thought of as pagan, then it doesn't fall under practices that would bring sanctions from the WTS. Of course, it didn't take some long to realize that birthdays fall under the same reasoning.

They, to my thinking, have certainly shot themselves in the foot with their reply on the Pinatas. You're right that by following that line of thinking Birthdays is fine too.

In my own opinion though, I feel happier staying away from anything that has roots in paganism. I'm only commenting on myself and am not in any way trying to enforce my views on others. I've always been a bit wary of demon control (due to bad experiences as a child) and because of this I tend to keep away from anything that is linked with witchcraft. But like I said that's my viewpoint and I wouldn't dream of knocking anyone who wants to celebrate their birthday, with or without a Pinata.

Out of interest, do you have any idea why they don't use the pagan line anymore? It's been awhile since I really kept up with their reasonings but I don't recal hearing this as a child either. (or maybe I just wasn't listening, which is probably the case. )

29

Concerning Birthdays, Dogs, and the Bible

by metatron in

the watchtower can't establish clear evidence that birthdays , as a natural event, are part of 'false' religion.. so, they try to associate them with negative events in the bible and condemn them thereby.. the trouble with this reasoning is that it is foolish to condemn any practise arbitrarily simply because someone can.

find something negative correlated with it in bible events.

( how about chronology and false prophecy?).

laurelin

This was something that never rang true with me either. The explanations that were given were at best wishy washy and at worst just plain weird.

I did some research myself on Birthdays, (especially in line with the "Pinata" case recently!) and I have to admit I was quite surprised with what I found.

I have pasted the article here (well I'm going to try and paste it here!):

The German periodical "Schwäbische Zeitung" (magazine supplement Zeit und Welt) of April 3/4, 1981 on page 4 stated: "The various customs with which people today celebrate their birthdays have a long history. Their origins lie in the realm of magic and religion. The customs of offering congratulations, presenting gifts and celebrating - complete with lighted candles - in ancient times were meant to protect the birthday celebrant from the demons and to ensure his security for the coming year. . . . Down to the fourth century Christianity rejected the birthday celebration as a pagan custom."

The book The Lore of Birthdays (New York, 1952) by Ralph and Adelin Linton, on pages 8, 18-20 had this to say: "The Greeks believed that everyone had a protective spirit or daemon who attended his birth and watched over him in life. This spirit had a mystic relation with the god on whose birthday the individual was born.

The Romans also subscribed to this idea. . . . This notion was carried down in human belief and is reflected in the guardian angel, the fairy godmother and the patron saint. . . . The custom of lighted candles on the cakes started with the Greeks. . . . Honey cakes round as the moon and lit with tapers were placed on the temple altars of [Artemis]. . . . Birthday candles, in folk belief, are endowed with special magic for granting wishes. . . . Lighted tapers and sacrificial fires have had a special mystic significance ever since man first set up altars to his gods. The birthday candles are thus an honor and tribute to the birthday child and bring good fortune"

This same book, on page 20, also had this to say about the traditional greeting of 'Happy Birthday': "Birthday greetings and wishes for happiness are an intrinsic part of this holiday. . . . originally the idea was rooted in magic. The working of spells for good and evil is the chief usage of witchcraft. One is especially susceptible to such spells on his birthday, as one's personal spirits are about at the time. . . . Birthday greetings have power for good or ill because one is closer to the spirit world on this day."

And Horst Fuhrmann, professor of medieval history at the University of Regensburg, made this comment about birthdays: "The birthday celebration was in honor of one's guardian angel or god, whose altar was decorated with flowers and wreaths; sacrifices were offered to the god of festival, friends offered congratulations and brought gifts." Furthermore, he stated in the German newspaper "Süddeutschen Zeitung": "Great prominence was given the birthday parties held for the emperor, replete with parades, public banquets, circus plays, and the hunting of animals: spectacles disgusting to the [early] Christians."

Wow" It worked!

Anyway, why don't they use this kind of information instead of the usual "Bad light" theory. I'm inclined to agree with them (heaven help me!) on this principle merely because it's quite plainly steeped in paganism and being a Christian the two don't marry together for me.

But surely if they were to use this line of reasoning then it would stand up a bit more under scrutiny (not to mention, the no doubt, hundreds of JW's who can't quite understand why birthdays are wrong but follow the rule anyway whilst secretly doubting!)

Anyway, that's my two penny worth.

All the best

Laurelin

15

Comments please?

by irishayes in

i am still having an ongoing conversation with a couple of jw's on my medical message board and when i commented about the requirement of a number of hours of witnessing, this is the response i got.

is she being truthful?.

"in all the years that i have been a jehovah's witness,never once has anyone put any pressure on me to do a required amount of time in the preaching work.any time i spend speaking to people about the bible is spent because i want to do it' because i want to try my best to follow the example of jesus and his early followers-acts.5.42, acts 20.20,i believe that jehovah god wants me to be a part of this preaching work mathew 24.14, ".

laurelin

Well, I think this one is a little awkward. You can outright say she's lying or you you can say she's genuine in her belief.

In my own example, (I've been inactive for nearly 8 months) and there's been no pressure to go out at all. In fact I'm not certain they even know I exist the lack of contact I've had. We've just had our CO and I fully expected some sort of backlash then. But there's been nothing.

On the other hand, several years ago when I was strong in the ministry and used to turn in the national average my husband went to an elder to inquire how he could work towards becoming a ministerial servant. He was told that he had to be "seen" doing the national average and that was it. Something my husband has never attained to due to work hours.

My point being is that this particular poster you are in contact with may personally never have had any pressure for total requirement of hours. In as such she may not be being dishonest, merely ignorant of what happens to others. Something I've seen a lot of recently. JW's on the whole, seem to be very badly misinformed and assume everything is the same as their own particular congregation and elder network.

All the best

Laurelin.

66

Visit From Elders

by laurelin in

it's been awhile since i've been on here.

due to death in the family, chicken pox in children and other nasty things.. i posted here awhile ago about things i had found the unsettled me.

i was due to have a visit from two elders and a lot of you gave me lots of help and encouragement.. well, the two elders visited and i have to admit that it was nothing like i expected.. they sat down, and told me straight away that there was nothing i could say or ask that would hurt me.

laurelin

Thank you so much for your replies everyone.

As usual the response always staggers me!

You've all given me a lot to think about and I need to research some more but somethings that have been said have already struck a cord or two.

I appreciate your words about love Yeru and Carmel and I hope I didn't offend either of you by my words. I should have clarified how I feel they are unique in love... sorry. You're right. On a social level there are a lot of people out there that do a darned sight more than witnesses do for other people. And it's insulting to say that only the Witnesses display love. (Because frankly, sometimes that love is rather markedly lacking!)

And what the Catholics and indeed other religions have accomplished in regards of hospitals and the such is simply amazing and is surely nothing short of the highest form love for neighbour. I have deep admiration for people like the Red Cross that will sacrifice their entire lives to help other people.

Where I feel the JW's are unique is that they will not go to war against each other or indeed anyone else. You'll get a catholic killing a catholic and there are some horrendous things done in Ethnic Cleansing' where one religion tries to stamp out another but you never get one JW try to kill another.

I'm not certain I'm getting across what I'm trying to say. No offence to anyone is meant in any way. Sorry.

As for using fear to install. This is a very valid point that has niggled at me for a long time.

I am going to try and get my hands on those books that you all told me about. Thank you very much.

I also think it's interesting your points of the elders being unique.... I rather think they are too. But having said that, they also seem to be the most 'on the ball' ones in our cong. Half of them are so out of touch it's unbelievable.

I've just re-read my earlier post and this one and I really think that my mind is already made up. Leave it. I think I just need to get the courage up to actually make the move to get away.

Thanks again for all your help.