Posts by Amazing1914

93

Alcoholism - a disease or a choice?

by Sirona in

jw
friends

alcoholics anonymous claims that alcoholism is a disease.

somehow i think that is just a way of excusing the person from the responsibility that they chose to drink and they chose to let it become an addiction.. what do you think?.

sirona

Amazing1914

u/d,

You also can't "catch" alcoholism, like the plague or flu. It is a behavioural problem (the root), the negative effect the alcohol has on an individual is secondary and a symptom.

Alcoholism is not just a behavoural problem. A person can become an alcoholic by drinking too much for a long time, even if he/she does not have a genetic predisposition. Alcoholism is a proven disease. It has both physical and mental characteristics.

As for "catching" diseases like the flu, many diseases are indigenous to one's body, such as heart disease, cancer, etc. Likewise, alcoholism is a physical disease that requires treatment. Depression is a disease, and likewise requires both medical and theraputic treatment.

That would be like saying that a non-alcoholic and an alcoholic are really the same thing, ones physiology just can't handle it, therefore he has a disease.... not too logical to me.

This is actually very logical. People with a predisposition to heart disease can't handle high cholosterol diets. It will clog their arteries more so than people who do not have a genetic predisposition. Like and alcoholic, a person can have heart disease and not know it.

The big difference is that people with other diseases merit our sympathy and love. Whereas alcoholics piss us off, so we tend to minimize their disease and see them through the eyes of judgmentalism.

Jim W.

93

Alcoholism - a disease or a choice?

by Sirona in

jw
friends

alcoholics anonymous claims that alcoholism is a disease.

somehow i think that is just a way of excusing the person from the responsibility that they chose to drink and they chose to let it become an addiction.. what do you think?.

sirona

Amazing1914

Hi u/d,

In the real world most people don't care who's offended.... although I try not to "offend".

I find most people actually do care, and often take steps to make amends. Some people do not care, and do nothing to sooth ruffeled feathers.

Doogie is basically correct, in that the comparison you employed is really not relevant to alcoholism as a disease. Also, while alcoholism is a treatable disease, the consequences of alcohol abuse still requires social and civil responsibility on the part of the alcoholic.

Example: I had a heart attack three years ago. I could not help it. I did not choose it. It was the result of my genetics. Yet, I still had to deal with the nearly $80,000 in medical bills. No one personally blamed me, but they needed to be paid for their services rendered. Likewise, Alcoholics who have caused harm, albeit not intended, still must make amends, including the possibility of jail time in some cases.

By the way I grew up with an alcoholic (violent when drank) step-father (non-Dub) and I cetainly speak from a life of experience... although I have no problem with "the juice". I could totally live without it. Although I do enjoy it.

I grew up with an alcoholic too. My dad and mom drank too much and in my dad's case, it caused havoc in our family. Most alcoholics feel they can "do without it" though they believe that they are just drinking socially. They do not understand the disease mechanism. People who grow up with an alcoholic parent are at great risk of having the predisposition for the disease ... and should carefully consider never drinking.

Denial is the real enemy of alcoholics. This factor alone is why the alcoholic will suffer for years, and will cause others around them to suffer. Intervention is among the ways to get the alcoholic to see the impact of the disease, and to get them into a treatment program.

Jim W.

25

How Do You Discern If Someone Is Telling The Truth or Lying?

by minimus in

jw
friends

what signs do you look for in determining whether someone is really telling the truth, outright lying or possibly using "theocratic strategy"??

?

Amazing1914

While body language can give away a liar, its not always a safe enough standard to judge someone. Different cultures and sub-cultures, as well personalities allow for differing body language.

Example: In Hispanic cultures (at least the Hispanics in my family) will look down as a sign of respect, but to an anglo-saxon, looking down is a sign of lying. Also, some people, who are insecure, will fear not being believed, and will act-out the signs of lying. This is typical in children and some adults.

The best way is to have solid evidence that contradicts the liar's statements. With independent evidence, the liar has to face the lie, or tell another lie to cover the evidence. Their body language no longer matters. Rather, their extended and strained logic will eventually give them away.

As a side not: What is more important is "why" they lied. That has a great bearing on making any judgments.

Jim W.

96

POLL----

by minimus in

jw
friends

how many here have been a jw since the 70's or before?......80's on?

?

Amazing1914

Started associating in 1968

Studied in 1969

Baptized in 1970

Walked away in 1992

Rumored to be DA'd in 1995

Total 1968 to 1995 is 27 years

93

Alcoholism - a disease or a choice?

by Sirona in

jw
friends

alcoholics anonymous claims that alcoholism is a disease.

somehow i think that is just a way of excusing the person from the responsibility that they chose to drink and they chose to let it become an addiction.. what do you think?.

sirona

Amazing1914

Sirona,

I've heard that alcoholics can't have one drink because the one drink automatically "pushes a button" which means that they have to continue drinking available alcohol until they pass out or run out of alcohol? Do you know of any studies about this? What is the physical "cause" of this?

Exactly ... this is what alcoholism is all about. A "normal" person without the disease can have one drink and stop. Or they can easily choose to not drink. An alcoholic cannot do this. It takes serious intervention, medical treatment, education, and a determination to stay clean of alcohol.

As for studies, I do not have a citation on hand, but I will see what I can find and post it later on. However, the experience of millions upon millions of alcoholics testifies to this fact: until they get treatment and deal with the disease, they cannot stop drinking.

Jim W.

93

Alcoholism - a disease or a choice?

by Sirona in

jw
friends

alcoholics anonymous claims that alcoholism is a disease.

somehow i think that is just a way of excusing the person from the responsibility that they chose to drink and they chose to let it become an addiction.. what do you think?.

sirona

Amazing1914

Hi Sirona,

Jim W, thanks for that information! The "intervention" thing does sound a bit cultish though.

An "intervention" has nothing to do with cultishness. Alcoholism affects the people in the life of the alcoholic. If they stand by and do nothing, they become "enablers" and at times "co-dependant" in the psychological (mental) aspect of the disease. BY conducting an "intervention" with a trained professional as a facilitator, they help the alcoholic and they help themselves.

I have conducted an intervention, and, if anything, it helps to end the cycle of dependence. In fact, our participation on this forum is a form of religious "intervention" for JWs who finally realize that there is something wrong with their lives. We help them take responsibility, and see the religious for what it is ... a toxic addition to the organization and its silly beliefs. Likewise, an alcoholic has to learn how much power they have given to the "bottle" and how much they need to stay far away from it.

Hi Doogie,

" ... for people with a family history of heart disease, they know that they have a genetic predisposition so they need to be careful to maintain a healthy lifestyle. if they are less careful than they should be and they end up suffering a heart attack, does this make it less of a 'disease'? the person has more responsibility than, say, the person suffering from leukemia, but i would still say that the deck was stacked against them and they had a VERY high liklihood of developing the condition."

Excellent points. A fair comparison in several ways. I have heart disease. I was thin most of my life. While my mother had heart disease, my dad did not. My mothers' mom did not have heart disease. I had no clue whatsoever that I had a genetic flaw in this respect or that I was on a path to have a heart attack. Only in recent years has technology been available to get a clear determination that a person's arteries were clogging up, and action was needed. Now, though, if I fail to take medicine, eat foods loaded with cholosterol, and ignore high blood pressure ... then I am making a bad choice that has death-dealing consequence.

Jim W.

93

Alcoholism - a disease or a choice?

by Sirona in

jw
friends

alcoholics anonymous claims that alcoholism is a disease.

somehow i think that is just a way of excusing the person from the responsibility that they chose to drink and they chose to let it become an addiction.. what do you think?.

sirona

Amazing1914

Hi Sirona,

Good question. As pointed out by Abaddon, there is a genetic link to alcoholism. Though, a peson without the link can end up an alcoholic by years of drinking too much. Alcoholism is both a disease of the body and the mind.

Responsibility: Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) has never sought to excuse the problem because of recognizing it as a disease. Rather, AA is all about taking life one day at a time, taking stock of one's life, and making amends for the harm caused by the disease. They also learn to accept the consequences of their drinking, and try to live by the prayer,

"God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change; courage to change the things I can; and wisdom to know the difference."

You noted: " ... or they are responsible because they unfortunately have the addiction gene and chose to drink to excess."

Alcoholism is Insideous: Unfortunately, alcoholics have no clue that they have an addiction gene. They do not "choose" to drink "knowing" that they will have a problem with alcohol. However, once they begin drinking, they most often do not realize what they are doing to themselves until years later, when they are a considerable ways down the road, or hit "bottom."

Treatment: AA is there to help those who finally realize that they need to take some responsibility for themselves, and to begin to get treatment for the disease. Even then, many alcoholics do not realize they need help, and so family and friends along with a trained counselor will conduct an "intervention" to force the alcoholic to see they they need help. Treatment can often involve a stay in a de-tox center, with medical help. Then a long road of recovery.

Millons of people have dealt successfully with the problem ... but, many millions more need serious help.

Jim W.

40

Governing Body talk in Holland - GB decisions are Jehovah's decisions

by truthseeker in

jw
friends

it seems that few are aware of it, but the whole talk here is posted.. http://e-jehovahs-witnesses.com/viewtopic.php?t=2337&postdays=0&postorder=asc&&start=45.

seems like holland is having problems with jw authority.. thought i'd paste a few comments from the board before pasting the talk, so you can get an idea of what is happening.... --------------------------.

thanks for the update from holland.

Amazing1914

Oh my Gawd ... Incredible ... to think we used to sit there and listen to that stuff. - Jim W.

30

Investigated the Dawn Bible Society (Russellites)

by orangefatcat in

jw
friends

since investigating the history of the society i thought i would do research on the dawn bible society to others known as the russellites.

today in the mail i recieved a booklet and it is all about pastor russell his life and what happened after he died and the split from the watchtowe society.

some great reading and a real eye opener to the truth of the breakoff .

Amazing1914

Hi Orange,

A few years ago I attended the Dawn Bible Students national convention in Newberg, Oregon. It was most interesting. It had many elements of an extra large JW circuit assembly. It was held at a local college with about 3,000 in attendance. About a third of the audience wre ex-JWs. This is where I got to know the grandaughter of Olin Moyle, and learn some interesting information regarding the Moyle v Watchtower trial.

At this convention I was able to purchase the first book ever written by Charles Russell, called: Tabernacle Shadows. I spoke extensively with the Dawn Students, and learned that they could have beaten Rutherford legally, given that Rutherford had no authority to fire the four directors. Their attorney wanted to press forth and remove Rutherford, but after prayerful consideration, they decided to not take their brothers to court in accordance with Bible principles. They decided to just let the Society go. Many viewed the Watchtower Society as having returned to Babylon the Great.

I also attended a few of their Sunday meetings. These were most interesting, because they are truly Bible studies. They do spend the first half hour discussing pages from Studies in the Scriptures, but after that they discuss and even debate what they study in the Bible. Women and men participate equally. The children are watched by an adult and old kids, but essentially play quietly in a play area, while the adults study and debate.

Overall my assessment of them is: The Dawn Bible Students have all the good things you wanted with Jehovah's Witnesses, but none of the bad.

Jim Whitney

5

Baptist Quick-build Church Building

by hillbilly in

jw
friends

.

http://http://www.stategazette.com/story/1094339.html

so much for the "patented, jehober loves us work methods".

Amazing1914

Hi Hillbilly,

The link, as shown with the extra "http://" does not work. Try this: http://www.stategazette.com/story/1094339.html